jewish messiah

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well, it’s true that the original Christians were all Jews.

we can look to surviving Judeo-Christian communities and see something of the blend of Judaic belief and practice, and faith in the Messiah Jesus.

the Mar Thoma Christians, for example, who would keep kosher, worship on Saturday, seat men and women seperately in worship, and cover the head in worship, all observances and traditions found in their Jewish heritage, and some of which are still found in Catholic and Orthodox churches.

the reason Christians don’t keep the mitzvot is because we see Christ as the fulfilment of the Torah, the Living Word. we are no longer justified by keeping the Law, but by faith in the Messiah Jesus. who summed up the Law and Prophets with the commands to love God with all one’s heart and soul and might, and love one’s neighbor as one’s self.

we read passages like Jeremiah 31:31-33 as promising a new covenant which will not be like the one made with Moses on Sinai. this new covenant will be through and because of Christ Jesus, the Messiah, and will not be like the Mosaic covenant, but will fulfil God’s promises to His people. Jesus’ own words in the Gospels also back this reading, and clarify how Jesus saw Himself as the fulfilment of, and how He indicated that we are to be saved through faith in Him.

again, this all comes back to whether or not one believes He is the Messiah. Jews tend to argue that as He did not restore Israel, He could not have been the Messiah. yet Jesus spoke often of His seond coming, when these things will be fulfilled. so Jews and Christians wait for the same Messiah, to accomplish many of the same things. for us it will be His second coming, for most Jews, His first.
 
Xavierlives said:
Have you ever heard of a theory or theology or concept within the Jewish Faith that says that there is always a Messiah-in-waiting on the earth and that all that is required is God’s annointing to get the ball rolling?
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Oh, we’re not short of all sorts of legends! There is a belief, common in Chassids that there’s a potential Messiah in every generation but we have to be good enough to deserve him.
 
LutheranDK said:
No - affirmanti incumbit probatio.
“The burden of evidence falls upon the one who makes the claim”
You have claimed the NT as fictitious - now you must prove your statement.
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There are a number of reasons why that’s not so - the extraordinary claims are in the book, it’s for the believers in those to prove them not those who don’t believe a word of it to prove that they’re not real - is it necessary for people who don’t accept all sorts of pious fictions (Qur’an, Book of Mormon. whatever) to prove they’re pious fictions?

A major one, however, is that, since I don’t actually care what Christians believe, it’s not exactly necessary for me to do anything at all.
 
Kaninchen said:
There are a number of reasons why that’s not so - the extraordinary claims are in the book, it’s for the believers in those to prove them not those who don’t believe a word of it to prove that they’re not real - is it necessary for people who don’t accept all sorts of pious fictions (Qur’an, Book of Mormon. whatever) to prove they’re pious fictions?

A major one, however, is that, since I don’t actually care what Christians believe, it’s not exactly necessary for me to do anything at all.
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If I claim that the koran or book of mormon are fictitious works, then I fully, and rightfully, expect muslims and mormons to ask me to justify that claim.

The fact that you don’t believe in the message of the NT has no bearing on the burden of evidence that you took upon yourself in making the claim. If you say that the NT is fictitious, then it is up to you to justify that claim.
Erasmus Montanus said:
Affirmanti incumbit probatio
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Kaninchen said:
Not even vaguely true - “Christianity isn’t Judaism plus Jesus and Judaism isn’t Christianity minus Jesus” is becoming a mantra of mine on CAF.

The two religions don’t work the same way at all, they’re paradigmatically different, the whole focus is different - it’s something that Christians really need to come to terms with if they’re trying to understand Judaism.
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Then what is a teaching in the O.T. that the RC and the Jews view so differently?
 
ralphinal said:
I might not have been clear.

If Jesus IS the Messiah, and the Second Coming to us is the first coming to the Jews, there would need to be a MAJOR shift in understanding among the Jews.

I am not saying that they won’t accept him or that they do not have to. What I am saying is that they rule that out as a possibility because under traditional Jewish thought, the Messiah is not God.

If I am wrong, I hope our little bunny corrects me
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Oh ok, By the way I agree completely on Both accounts:D
 
Kaninchen said:
Oh, we’re not short of all sorts of legends! There is a belief, common in Chassids that there’s a potential Messiah in every generation but we have to be good enough to deserve him.
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Hmm… Thank You. I had heard this once in an interview and I’ve never found its source or reference so I’ll start there.
 
Kaninchen said:
Oh, we’re not short of all sorts of legends! There is a belief, common in Chassids that there’s a potential Messiah in every generation but we have to be good enough to deserve him.
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But…doesn’t this make the fulfillment of God’s plan depend on humanity? And isn’t that belittling God?
It’s certainly not the image of God that I see in the OT/Tanach…
 
LutheranDK said:
If I claim that the koran or book of mormon are fictitious works, then I fully, and rightfully, expect muslims and mormons to ask me to justify that claim.

The fact that you don’t believe in the message of the NT has no bearing on the burden of evidence that you took upon yourself in making the claim. If you say that the NT is fictitious, then it is up to you to justify that claim.
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Nope, it’s up to people who think it’s real to establish it’s real.
 
rinnie said:
Then what is a teaching in the O.T. that the RC and the Jews view so differently?
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In less than how many volumes, exactly?

I’m sorry rinnie but this isn’t really a message board task - bit like asking somebody to sum up the differences between Christianity and Buddhism in a few lines. Perhaps, if I have time in the near future, I’ll attempt something on the fundamental differences between the two religions
 
About the slam on legends, if there is any institution with a central authority to discern truth from gnostics or other legends, it is the Roman Catholic church. We traditionally excel in education, our Vatican library is the largest and greatest in the world.

If you live in Italy, you are in a domicile that has produced some of the greatest writers, accounting, social workers, physicians, educators, musicians, and artists the world has ever known, many of them Catholic.

We have a highly critiqued paper trail that goes back 2,000 years. And we do not revolve around one group or sect or discipline in the church nor one generation of time to secure that what is understood and passed down to following traditions is in keeping with the oral Tradition of Jesus Christ.

The beginning Church was 100% Jewish. Our dimension of faith came out of Israel with no intention to commit fratricide to the Jewish people. But because Christ called all to salvation, the Church had to take on a universal nature to be for all. Thus the letting go of many Hebrew ethnic practices that are now being studied and restored through the Hebrew Catholics.

Christ came not for political power. The hell of this earth originates in the human heart. not any outer political system. It must be conquered through the life and death and resurrection of Christ to rule. The kingdom of God is within.

Christ came as Priest/King, Priesthood, the Anointed One, the summation and fulfillment of all sacrifices.

I think we Catholics need to study our Jewish roots more than anything.
 
rinnie said:
That is up to the power of the HS to do. If Jesus came here and couldn’t do it, I am sure we couldn’t. If reading the N.T. can’t convince you nothing can. But I think many people forget about the Jews that did indeed follow Jesus. We would not have the Apostles and the word of God if not for the Jews. Many Jews are and were very Loyal to Christ.

And you said it yourself then all you Christians can talk to ONE ANOTHER. But you did say one thing correct because of our faith in Jesus are hearts are indeed content!
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It’s interesting to think about though. What if I personally was confronted on the street by some dude claiming to be God’s son? I don’t know if I’d even give him the time of day. I don’t consider myself a gullible person. My initial (and very possibly permanent) reaction would likely not be one of openness. Rumors of miracles might or might not convince me. I find them convincing today as a person far removed from the actual events and after 2000 years of serious reflection by minds devoted to that reflection. I have the benefit of that. Saul of Tarsus wasn’t buying it. He no doubt thought these Jewish followers of Jesus were nuts. His conversion only came after a personal confrontation with the risen, ascended Christ. That doesn’t happen to most of us. Saul thought he was serving God by nipping this novel Christian thing in the bud. God thought Saul’s job was something else and did what was needed to convince him.
 
Kaninchen said:
In less than how many volumes, exactly?

I’m sorry rinnie but this isn’t really a message board task - bit like asking somebody to sum up the differences between Christianity and Buddhism in a few lines. Perhaps, if I have time in the near future, I’ll attempt something on the fundamental differences between the two religions
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Okay my little red bunny:D
 
miguel said:
It’s interesting to think about though. What if I personally was confronted on the street by some dude claiming to be God’s son? I don’t know if I’d even give him the time of day. I don’t consider myself a gullible person. My initial (and very possibly permanent) reaction would likely not be one of openness. Rumors of miracles might or might not convince me. I find them convincing today as a person far removed from the actual events and after 2000 years of serious reflection by minds devoted to that reflection. I have the benefit of that. Saul of Tarsus wasn’t buying it. He no doubt thought these Jewish followers of Jesus were nuts. His conversion only came after a personal confrontation with the risen, ascended Christ. That doesn’t happen to most of us. Saul thought he was serving God by nipping this novel Christian thing in the bud. God thought Saul’s job was something else and did what was needed to convince him.
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I used to think about that too. But them I remembered this. Remember what Jesus said. He will come back in Glory the same why he left! That is why we have the Church. We know that Jesus is the CC. So really he is here every day through the Eucharist and by the Power of the HS. But when he comes again we will know. Trust me. we will know. Remember he will raise the dead. And we will have a new heaven and new earth.👍
 
rinnie said:
I used to think about that too. But them I remembered this. Remember what Jesus said. He will come back in Glory the same why he left! That is why we have the Church. We know that Jesus is the CC. So really he is here every day through the Eucharist and by the Power of the HS. But when he comes again we will know. Trust me. we will know. Remember he will raise the dead. And we will have a new heaven and new earth.👍
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I believe all of this. And I hope the new earth has decent waves like the old earth…will I be on 'em is the question.
 
miguel said:
I believe all of this. And I hope the new earth has decent waves like the old earth…will I be on 'em is the question.
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Tell ya what. You pray for me and I for you. And lets hope for the best. And you bet the waves will be great! After all it will be paradise!😃
 
Kaninchen said:
Nope, it’s up to people who think it’s real to establish it’s real.
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Whenever you make a claim, you are logically obliged to prove that your claim is correct. This is very basic thinking - and very basic logic. When you make a claim, be it a positive or a negative one, it is up to you to prove it.

So when you state “the NT is fictitious”, then you are logically obligated to prove it.

Had you said “I believe the NT to be fictitious”, that would be another matter, since you had not stated it as fact, but revealed to the rest of us that this is your personal opinion.

See the difference?
 
LutheranDK said:
Whenever you make a claim, you are logically obliged to prove that your claim is correct. This is very basic thinking - and very basic logic. When you make a claim, be it a positive or a negative one, it is up to you to prove it.

So when you state “the NT is fictitious”, then you are logically obligated to prove it.

Had you said “I believe the NT to be fictitious”, that would be another matter, since you had not stated it as fact, but revealed to the rest of us that this is your personal opinion.

See the difference?
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I think you need to read what I’ve actually written here and then read what you’ve written in the third paragraph of the quoted post.

Then, perhaps, you might wonder what all your fuss has been about.
 
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