Jewish people, the Holocaust, and Christmas

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gam197 said:
Thank you, that does explain a lot. Does Judaism believe in an end time or is that a Christian concept?
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Yes and no… traditionally, they believe in a World To Come but it isn’t defined exactly. Some Jews consider it heaven and some consider it a new age on earth ruled by God and his selected righteous rulers and some, just a hope for a better tomorrow. Jews are kind of all over the place because exactly what they believe isn’t as important as what they do and Jews are commanded to try and make this world a bit better…to be a light upon all nations. Jews pretty much just accept that we don’t know exactly what happens after death other than being with God…what ever that means to each. Most don’t believe in a Hell, either though agree with Catholics that there’s a purgation of some sort to purify us before entering The World to Come. Judaism has never focused heavily on after death so views are a bit all over the place.
 
Pattylt said:
Judaism has never focused heavily on after death so views are a bit all over the place.
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One of my early suggestions was that the triumph of Christianity was to discover a disease - “You’re all doomed!” and prescribe itself as the only cure.

I’ve always been taken by the argument that one of the reasons that Christianity caught on rather quickly with the poor and slaves in the Roman Empire was because it offered a vision of an afterlife for everybody, rather than the traditional belief that their afterlife would consist, at best, with fading away.
 
I remember a professor of Christianity saying similar. The early Christians had to first get the pagans to believe their was a hell in order to offer them salvation from it. Hell was a pretty nonexistent idea before Christianity. Even the Jews vaguely believed in a shadowy afterlife existence, similar to Roman beliefs.
 
It was common in the Ancient Middle East - when Inanna/Ishtar paid her three day visit to the Underworld, it would have been full of fading ‘shades’.
 
jeannetherese said:
Belief in an afterlife is not limited to Christianity.
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I think you’ll see that we’ve been saying that - it’s what that comprised with different classes of people that varied.

In Rome, if you were an Emperor, you joined the Gods, if you were a slave, you faded away (at best).
 
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What interested me about the article was that the afterlife did not seem limited to an Emperor/king and that there was both a wonderful afterlife available and one that would be dismal.
“The passage to the afterlife was complex and dangerous. The deceased had to pass a series of difficult tests, aided by instructions from the Book of the Dead, protective amulets, and talismans. Final judgment took place before Osiris, the god of the dead. In the final judgment, the deceased’s heart was weighed against the feather of truth. If the scale balanced, Osiris permitted the deceased to enter the Field of Reeds, a paradisiacal world of plenty. If the heart was heavy with sin, the crocodile-headed monster Ammit (Eater of the Dead) devoured the deceased and his/her afterlife ended in torment and shame.”
 
I think that, if you look deeper into the topic, you’ll find that afterlife of the masses would have been pretty thin.
 
Kaninchen said:
I’ve often wondered why I’ve lasted so long
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I think I know why. And why Meltzerboy and others have lasted so long. It is because of a tendency to soft pedal the differences between Judaism and Christianity at least to some extent. Some Jews will take a harder line as they see Christianity as polytheistic and idolatrous. IMHO, even though Christianity and Judaism are incompatible, nevertheless, Christians and Jews can work together to make this a better world.
 
Pattylt said:
Yes and no… traditionally, they believe in a World To Come but it isn’t defined exactly. Some Jews consider it heaven and some consider it a new age on earth ruled by God and his selected righteous rulers and some, just a hope for a better tomorrow. Jews are kind of all over the place because exactly what they believe isn’t as important as what they do and Jews are commanded to try and make this world a bit better…to be a light upon all nations. Jews pretty much just accept that we don’t know exactly what happens after death other than being with God…what ever that means to each. Most don’t believe in a Hell, either though agree with Catholics that there’s a purgation of some sort to purify us before entering The World to Come. Judaism has never focused heavily on after death so views are a bit all over the place.
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So if it is more about what they do so how does this define their lives?
 
Grr. It wasn’t behind a paywall when I first accessed it and now, trying to access it a second time, I can’t read it either.
Fortunately, my original access is still open, so I’ll share a bit from that.
Please accept my apologies.
It was an interesting article (with limited depth as it tried to give an overview).
Here is a snippet from the article which is still open from my initial access:

"But that would change during the vicissitudes of Second Temple Judaism. A new apocalyptic eschatology took form during the epic struggle between Jews and the Hellenic world in the 2nd century BCE: that the dead would rise at the End of Days.

Martyrdom and the End of Days

There were two major reasons this theory developed at that time. One is that after the Babylonian Exile (586-638 BCE), Judaism became deeply concerned with interpreting sacred texts and deciphering their secrets. Thus passages such as “The Lord killeth, and maketh alive: he bringeth down to the grave, and bringeth up” (1 Samuel 2:6) and Ezekiel’s vision of the dry bones (Ezekiel 37:1-14) came to be taken as attestation that the dead would rise at the End of Days.

The second reason was the rise of a new kind of Jewish hero during the Maccabean Revolt (167-160 BCE) - the martyr.

A benevolent God must repay the sacrifice of a person who died for the sanctity of his name. Thus Jewish writings of the period hold that while we all die, death is only temporary, and in the future all will receive their just rewards.

As much is clearly stated in the Book of Daniel, which purports to be written during the Babylonian Exile, but was really written during the Maccabean Revolt: “And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt” (12:2)."

Josephus is then cited and a discussion of Sadducees and Pharisees position noted: Saduccees: no belief in afterlife or resurrection, Pharisees believed in both.
The article kind of fades around mid-medieval period and then pops into the present with lots of variation (that 's quite a long gap).
I would have been interested in breakdowns among Orthodox, Reformed, secular but, given PattyITs discussion that might be tougher to pin down.
 
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jeannetherese said:
"But that would change during the vicissitudes of Second Temple Judaism. A new apocalyptic eschatology took form during the epic struggle between Jews and the Hellenic world in the 2nd century BCE: that the dead would rise at the End of Days.

Martyrdom and the End of Days

There were two major reasons this theory developed at that time. One is that after the Babylonian Exile (586-638 BCE), Judaism became deeply concerned with interpreting sacred texts and deciphering their secrets. Thus passages such as “The Lord killeth, and maketh alive: he bringeth down to the grave, and bringeth up” (1 Samuel 2:6) and Ezekiel’s vision of the dry bones (Ezekiel 37:1-14) came to be taken as attestation that the dead would rise at the End of Days.

The second reason was the rise of a new kind of Jewish hero during the Maccabean Revolt (167-160 BCE) - the martyr.

A benevolent God must repay the sacrifice of a person who died for the sanctity of his name. Thus Jewish writings of the period hold that while we all die, death is only temporary, and in the future all will receive their just rewards.

As much is clearly stated in the Book of Daniel, which purports to be written during the Babylonian Exile, but was really written during the Maccabean Revolt: “And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt” (12:2)."
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jeannetherese said:
Josephus is then cited and a discussion of Sadducees and Pharisees position noted: Saduccees: no belief in afterlife or resurrection, Pharisees believed in both.
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So there does seem to be some variation in Jewish thought on reward in an afterlife. . Maybe this is why I find Judaism confusing.
 
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gam197 said:
Maybe this is why I find Judaism confusing.
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That’s ok…Jews do to! This was the whole point of the Talmud…the discussions on the Torah. Different respected Rabbis giving their interpretations of what passages mean. Most of the Talmud was finally written down in the early Middle Ages but some of the discussions go much further back in time. Dating can be tricky. What it does show is that believing one thing or another isn’t what’s important…or not important to defining a Jew. It’s all considered as a way to honor God and try to understand a little piece of Him…the most we can possibly do…It’s the journey, not the destination. Part of the practice of Judaism is studying Torah just like this and still very much done to this day.

Judaism has always been about the trying, the learning, the doing. It’s just not about what each believes. That’s why it’s so hard to not only understand Judaism but to compare it to religions based on beliefs. They are very different and confusing to each other.

As far as I can recall, the only dogma I would say Judaism has is that God is One…next would probably be that man cannot be God nor be like God. All the rest is to define us as a unified group (😂😂😂) and our shared history.
 
AlNg said:
It is because of a tendency to soft pedal the differences between Judaism and Christianity at least to some extent.
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So, saying (very often) that it isn’t just a question of Jesus, they’re two entirely different religions with different belief structures and foci and (fairly frequently) describing the NT as ‘pious fiction’ is soft-pedalling?

Certainly, it’s never been my aim to persuade anybody to change religions but I think I’ve made it pretty clear (from time to time) that - as far as Christianity is concerned - I don’t believe a word of it. On the other hand, I do think Christianity is mainly harmless to the believer and have said so, a number of times, so that’s probably soft-pedalling.
 
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Pattylt said:
As far as I can recall, the only dogma I would say Judaism has is that God is One…next would probably be that man cannot be God nor be like God. All the rest is to define us as a unified group (😂😂😂) and our shared history.
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Paywalled again, but, by straining my eyes, I was able to read the summary which points to the significance of symbolism as a presentation of dogma.
https://muse.jhu.edu/article/644788/pdf

Here’s a clipped portion which presents the thesis:
“Obviously such disagreement among the most eminent authorities in Judaism makes it possible for scholars to assert that no creed can be formulated for Judaism, because it is a religion without dogma. On the other hand so critical a student of Judaism as Morris R. Cohen has observed that the very existence of Judaism implies some agreement regarding its fundamental assumptions. Clearly no religion could be preserved as a unit, or survive generation after generation, if it had no basic principles. The difficulty which the scholar has encountered in analyzing these principles derives from failure to realize that verbal propositions , which are of superlative importance in the speculative realm, constitute but one way of articulating ideas. The use of symbols as substitutes for words and their greater precision and clarity, whether mathematical, scientific, logical, diagrammatical , or topographical, is widely understood. Less general 108 104 LOUIS F~STE~ perhaps is the realization that ideas and truths are also expressed in works of art and music and that these forms of expression have distinctive advantages, despite their lack of the precision and clarity of symbols or even verbal propositions.”
 
Yeah, from what I could read, he went on to explain the symbolism of the Sabbath as well. How it’s a statement of freedom from bondage and resting our labors to glory in God. The final statement is probably a bit better than mine on the differences between Judaism and Christianity…Judaism is based on Law and Christianity is based on faith. Boiled down, it’s still practice vs beliefs.

Christians will never fully understand Judaism as long as they are focused on what Jews believe. It’s the wrong question and will always end in confusion…sadly…
 
Kaninchen said:
I do think Christianity is mainly harmless to the believer and have said so, a number of times, so that’s probably soft-pedalling.
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Yes.
How can a Christian obey the Noahide Laws if Christianity is idolatry as some allege?
Anyway, please be assured that I have enjoyed reading your posts.
 
AlNg said:
How can a Christian obey the Noahide Laws if Christianity is idolatry as some allege?
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Many Jews will accept the Christian definition of a Trinity God, even though they believe you are wrong but many others will never accept it. To be nit picky, obeying the Noahide laws usually includes accept that God is One. So, those Jews would claim you’re not. Jews usually come down on letting God sort it out. All of us misunderstand God in one way or another. Looking at your heart will probably be the more deciding factor. This isn’t that much different than Christianity in this regard.
 
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