Jewish Salvation

[JReducation]

Hello Brother,

Isn’t it because they already are in a Covenant with God that we shouldn’t prosletyse Jews either?

As a result Jews who convert to Catholicism are free to practice the traditions of the Jewish faith alongside Catholic rituals because Catholicism is an extension of Judaism.

They are our elder brother in faith.

The faith of the Church is that God never forgets his covenants. While the covenant with Israel is fulfilled by Christ, the Jewish people have not yet entered into the fulfilled covenant. The covenant was first promised to them.

The Church holds that God desires to bring them into the fulfilled covenant, because he promised Abraham that it would happen and because these are Jesus’ people, whom he dearly loves. He’s not going to abandon them. As St. Paul says, they will be grafted on to the tree by the Lord. We have no idea how or when. We simply know that it will happen.

As far as we Hebrew Catholics are concerned, we become Catholics. However, there is nothing in Catholicism that is not Jewish. All of the Catholic traditions and Catholic spirituality actually completes what is missing in Judaism. Therefore, we don’t cease to be Jews. We are ethnically Jews and our Jewish faith is the basis of Christian faith. Hence the term “our older brothers and sisters in the faith.” One leads to the other.

As far as practices are concerned, we are not bound to worship as the Jews worship, because we already have that included in our liturgical life and completed by the Eucharist. However, the Church does encourage us to remain faithful to our culture. So, you will see that the well catechized Hebrew Catholics will practice certain customs that are part of our identity as a people and that Catholics also value.

For example, find a Catholic who does not value the Passover. If you devaluate the Pasch, you throw the mass out the window. If you denounce Hanukkah, the whole idea of the Church as light is lost. Hanukkah foreshadows the Light of the World that can never be extinguished. Yom Kippur, the Day of Atonement, foreshadows Good Friday. Purim celebrates the deliverance of the Jews from the Persians, modern day Iran. It foreshadows the deliverance of the Gentiles from paganism by the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

We certainly get together with family and friends to celebrate these holy days, not because of any moral obligation to do so, but because they are part of Judeo - Christian History and we are Judeo - Christians. We’re very much like the Apostles. They did not cease to be Jews, nor did they drop Jewish spirituality on a dime. It gradually faded as the last of the Jewish Christians died. A great example of this is the LOTH. The Divine Office comes from the Jews. The monks organized it, but did not create it. Acts 3 tells us, " Now Peter and John were going up to the temple at the ninth hour, the hour of prayer."

It would be inappropriate for a Gentile Catholic to celebrate the Jewish holy days, because they are not part of Catholic practice nor part of the Gentile culture.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, FFV

 

[kelcca]

There is no salvation outside of Jesus that is basic Biblical and Church Fathers teachings and there is no salvation in the old covenant from what I understand. Read the parable of the tenants, Matthew 21:33, the old covenant is void, the new one in Jesus and is the only one, and anyone who believes is Jesus is saved, and anyone who believes in jesus is now the chosen people, jews are no longer the chosen people.

St. Barnabas (the student of St. Paul) says: “Do not add to your sins by saying that the Covenant is both theirs and ours. Yes it is ours, but they lost it forever.”

“If any man love not Our Lord Jesus Christ, let him be anathema.”
(I Corinthians 16:22)

“Never allow yourselves to be led astray by false teachings and antiquated and useless fables. Nothing of any use can be got from them. If we are still living in the practice of Judaism, it is an admission that we have failed to receive the gift of grace”. -Ignatius

How do you explain the above quotes?

 

[meltzerboy]

There is no salvation outside of Jesus that is basic Biblical and Church Fathers teachings and there is no salvation in the old covenant from what I understand. Read the parable of the tenants, Matthew 21:33, the old covenant is void, the new one in Jesus and is the only one, and anyone who believes is Jesus is saved, and anyone who believes in jesus is now the chosen people, jews are no longer the chosen people.

St. Barnabas (the student of St. Paul) says: “Do not add to your sins by saying that the Covenant is both theirs and ours. Yes it is ours, but they lost it forever.”

“If any man love not Our Lord Jesus Christ, let him be anathema.”
(I Corinthians 16:22)

“Never allow yourselves to be led astray by false teachings and antiquated and useless fables. Nothing of any use can be got from them. If we are still living in the practice of Judaism, it is an admission that we have failed to receive the gift of grace”. -Ignatius

How do you explain the above quotes?

I would explain the statements by St. Barnabas and Ignatius in two ways: even Saints and Church Fathers are fallible despite being authoritative and one must interpret these, and all, writings within the cultural and historical context of their time.

 

[kelcca]

But that make’s no sense because the word of God does not change depending on what century you live in? If it was true in the New Testament wouldn’t it be true today? To mix Christianity with the practice of Judaisms is wrong?

 

[meltzerboy]

But that make’s no sense because the word of God does not change depending on what century you live in? If it was true in the New Testament wouldn’t it be true today? To mix Christianity with the practice of Judaisms is wrong?

I agree the Word of G-d does not change. I was referring to the word of a saint and that of a Church Father, who were both speaking according to their historical context.

 

[Aelred_Minor]

But that make’s no sense because the word of God does not change depending on what century you live in? If it was true in the New Testament wouldn’t it be true today? To mix Christianity with the practice of Judaisms is wrong?

To mix Christianity and Judaism is unnecessary, because all you need is Christianity. Furthermore, the mixing could be scandalous, if it gave people the impression that there was something wrong with not following the Jewish practices in question, such as dietary laws, observing Jewish holidays, or ritual circumcision. This is why the Church has discouraged or even forbidden Christians from observing such practices during much of Her history, despite their originally holy nature.

 

[kelcca]

Is not the new Israel Jesus spoke of the Church, Church Fathers/saints have always maintained that the New Israel is the Church, the Bride of Christ spoken about in the book of Revelation, not actually a geographic place? Was not Jesus preaching to the Jews/Israelites? He did not say keep your religious customs, he said believe in me. I am the only way to salvation. To say that Judaism is relevant as a religion or path of salvation is to deny who Jesus is.

Justin Martyr (A.D. 100–165) is important in the history of supersessionism because he was the first Christian writer to explicitly identify the church as “Israel.”[1] Justin declared, “For the true spiritual Israel, and descendants of Judah, Jacob, Isaac, and Abraham . . . are we who have been led to God through this crucified Christ.”[2] He also said, “Since then God blesses this people , and calls them Israel, and declares them to be His inheritance, how is it that you [Jews] repent not of the deception you practise on yourselves, as if you alone were the Israel?”[3] Justin also announced that, “We, who have been quarried out from the bowels of Christ, are the true Israelite race.”[4]

 

[loko]

But that make’s no sense because the word of God does not change depending on what century you live in? If it was true in the New Testament wouldn’t it be true today? To mix Christianity with the practice of Judaisms is wrong?

If it were wrong the Pope would not allow Jews who have converted to Catholicism to keep their Jewish rites.

Church Teachings is that Jewish converts are allowed to continue practicing their Jewish rituals if they wish to.

 

[loko]

I recommend reading Honey from the Rock by Roy Schoeman. It describes the conversion of 16 Jewish people to Catholicism.

One of those was the Chief Rabbi of Rome who was celebrating the most solemn Jewish liturgy of the year (Yom Kippur) in the synagogue, and had a vision of Jesus calling him. He knew it would be his last time officiating as Rabbi. He and his family became Catholic a short while afterward.

Asked why he would give up the synagogue for the Catholic Church, the Rabbi replied, “But I have not given it up. Christianity is the integration, completion or crown of the Synagogue. For the Synagogue was a promise, and Christianity is the fulfillment of that promise,” he said.

 

[Aelred_Minor]

If it were wrong the Pope would not allow Jews who have converted to Catholicism to keep their Jewish rites.

Church Teachings is that Jewish converts are allowed to continue practicing their Jewish rituals if they wish to.

While I am not aware of any current canon forbidding the continuance of Jewish rituals after baptism, I think the teaching of the Ecumenical Council of Florence should still give us pause.

“It [The Catholic Church] firmly believes, professes and teaches that the legal prescriptions of the old Testament or the Mosaic law, which are divided into ceremonies, holy sacrifices and sacraments, because they were instituted to signify something in the future, although they were adequate for the divine cult of that age, once our lord Jesus Christ who was signified by them had come, came to an end and the sacraments of the new Testament had their beginning. Whoever, after the passion, places his hope in the legal prescriptions and submits himself to them as necessary for salvation and as if faith in Christ without them could not save, sins mortally. It does not deny that from Christ’s passion until the promulgation of the gospel they could have been retained, provided they were in no way believed to be necessary for salvation. But it asserts that after the promulgation of the gospel they cannot be observed without loss of eternal salvation. Therefore it denounces all who after that time observe circumcision, the sabbath and other legal prescriptions as strangers to the faith of Christ and unable to share in eternal salvation, unless they recoil at some time from these errors. Therefore it strictly orders all who glory in the name of Christian, not to practise circumcision either before or after baptism, since whether or not they place their hope in it, it cannot possibly be observed without loss of eternal salvation.”

ewtn.com/library/COUNCILS/FLORENCE.HTM#5

 

[kelcca]

Thanks Loko, I have not read that book but I have read about Rabbi Zolli. Yes I believe Christianity is the completion/fulfillment of Judaism but where does one end and the other begin in terms of religious customs and practices? As a catholic why would we need to keep Old Testament law’s?

 

[kelcca]

youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=AY1GG0dyU9Y#!

So according to the above Catholic link, the Jews today are not even worshiping God?

 

[Aelred_Minor]

youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=AY1GG0dyU9Y#!

So according to the above Catholic link, the Jews today are not even worshiping God?

Don’t get sucked into the vortex. :nope:

 

[kelcca]

So it’s bad theology?

 

[meltzerboy]

While I am not aware of any current canon forbidding the continuance of Jewish rituals after baptism, I think the teaching of the Ecumenical Council of Florence should still give us pause.

“It [The Catholic Church] firmly believes, professes and teaches that the legal prescriptions of the old Testament or the Mosaic law, which are divided into ceremonies, holy sacrifices and sacraments, because they were instituted to signify something in the future, although they were adequate for the divine cult of that age, once our lord Jesus Christ who was signified by them had come, came to an end and the sacraments of the new Testament had their beginning. Whoever, after the passion, places his hope in the legal prescriptions and submits himself to them as necessary for salvation and as if faith in Christ without them could not save, sins mortally. It does not deny that from Christ’s passion until the promulgation of the gospel they could have been retained, provided they were in no way believed to be necessary for salvation. But it asserts that after the promulgation of the gospel they cannot be observed without loss of eternal salvation. Therefore it denounces all who after that time observe circumcision, the sabbath and other legal prescriptions as strangers to the faith of Christ and unable to share in eternal salvation, unless they recoil at some time from these errors. Therefore it strictly orders all who glory in the name of Christian, not to practise circumcision either before or after baptism, since whether or not they place their hope in it, it cannot possibly be observed without loss of eternal salvation.”

ewtn.com/library/COUNCILS/FLORENCE.HTM#5

These “legal prescriptions” of the Torah are not even practiced by Orthodox Jews in the hope of salvation. Rather, they are followed because they were commanded by G-d as a means to teach us how to love each other as well as grow closer to G-d by outlining what G-d expects of us. They also serve to make the mundane aspects of life something holy. Further, the whole Law is an elaboration of each of the Ten Commandments. As I’ve said numerous times and in my first post on this thread, Judaism is not a religion whose goal is personal salvation, but instead focuses on our lives here and now and how we may be able to improve the lives of others as well as our own through the guidance of the Law. The legal aspects of the Law are linked to its moral precepts and the latter must be transformed into moral behavior in this world. Judaism is an orthoprax religion more than an orthodox faith. In my view, Reform Judaism has carried the orthoprax nature of Judaism even further than Orthodox (Torah) Judaism. By contrast, the World to Come is considered to be in Judaism–the majority of which has been influenced by Pharisaic tradition which believed in an afterlife–the sole concern of G-d, and not of Man. In addition to all this, from the Jewish perspective, non-Jews (Gentiles) are not required or permitted to practice the Torah Law in its details, only the Seven Laws of Noah. To practice the Torah Law, a Gentile must convert to Judaism.

 

[Aelred_Minor]

These “legal prescriptions” of the Torah are not even practiced by Orthodox Jews in the hope of salvation. Rather, they are followed because they were commanded by G-d as a means to teach us how to love each other as well as grow closer to G-d by outlining what G-d expects of us. They also serve to make the mundane aspects of life something holy. Further, the whole Law is an elaboration of each of the Ten Commandments. As I’ve said numerous times and in my first post on this thread, Judaism is not a religion whose goal is personal salvation, but instead focuses on our lives here and now and how we may be able to improve the lives of others as well as our own through the guidance of the Law. The legal aspects of the Law are linked to its moral precepts and the latter must be transformed into moral behavior in this world. Judaism is an orthoprax religion more than an orthodox faith. In my view, Reform Judaism has carried the orthoprax nature of Judaism even further than Orthodox (Torah) Judaism. By contrast, the World to Come is considered to be in Judaism–the majority of which has been influenced by Pharisaic tradition which believed in an afterlife–the sole concern of G-d, and not of Man. In addition to all this, from the Jewish perspective, non-Jews (Gentiles) are not required or permitted to practice the Torah Law in its details, only the Seven Laws of Noah. To practice the Torah Law, a Gentile must convert to Judaism.

I don’t think that the Council meant to imply that non-Christian Jews, whether before or after the death of Christ, regarded the following of the Law as the key to personal salvation. The context was a) the Church’s past history with Judaizers within Christianity and b) the practice of circumcision and I think some other elements of historically Jewish ritual by the Coptic Christians who at the time looked to be about to rejoin the Catholic Church.

Thus the Council felt the need to insist both that these laws are not salvific in nature and that they should not be observed by Christians regardless of whether they put hope for salvation in them or not.

 

[Aelred_Minor]

So it’s bad theology?

In my judgment, yes. I’d stick with reputable sources, especially Magisterial sources.

 

[loko]

Thanks Loko, I have not read that book but I have read about Rabbi Zolli. Yes I believe Christianity is the completion/fulfillment of Judaism but where does one end and the other begin in terms of religious customs and practices? As a catholic why would we need to keep Old Testament law’s?

You don’t have to keep the OT laws because you are not a Jewish convert (I’m guessing).

Because they are the chosen people, the only exception is for Jewish converts who want to keep practicing Jewish rituals.

Just because a Jewish person converts doesn’t mean they stop being Jewish, that is their ethnic identity. A black person doesn’t stop being black if they convert to Catholicism.

Note also that once a Jewish person enters the Church and marries within the Church their children are effectively gentile.

 

[meltzerboy]

I don’t think that the Council meant to imply that non-Christian Jews, whether before or after the death of Christ, regarded the following of the law as the key to personal salvation. The context was a) the Church’s past history with Judaizers within Christianity and b) the practice of circumcision and I think some other elements of historically Jewish ritual by the Coptic Christians who at the time looked to be about to rejoin the Catholic Church.

Thus the Council felt the need to insist both that these laws are not salvific in nature and that they should not be observed by Christians regardless of whether they put hope for salvation in them or not.

I think I understand. Were the Judaizers within Christianity mainly concerned about continuing Jewish tradition rather than believing the tradition was essential to salvation? Or did they misinterpret the intent of the Law?

 

[kelcca]

Thanks for the heads up, still learning, still a newbe