Jewish Salvation

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I believe you are mixing up “herem” which is a ban imposed by the Jewish community with the punishment I was referring to which is “Karet”. Karet is a Divine punishment and the crime is a crime against God. God may cause a person to die before their 60th birthday or a woman to not bear children. It is true that a Jew will always be a Jew until death and up until that time can repent . However, the ramification of the Divine punishment of Karet is in not being part of the world to come and having your soul obliterated.
However, is not that ramification based only on a lack of repentance, for although the connection is severed by divine punishment, aka Karet, can it not be reconnected by means of prayer to G-d? I don’t think even Karet is a fait accompli. The obliteration of the soul is due to the most incorrigible sinner’s lack of remorse and repentance. That’s my understanding of it. Thank you for pointing out the distinction between community punishment, Herem, and Karet.
 
Actually, it’s not confusing at all. The Church’s position is very clear.
  1. God has a plan.
  2. The Church will no condone or support any organized plan to convert the Jews.
  3. There is nothing to stop Christians from giving witness to their faith, even among the Jews provided that the Christian respects the boundaries that the Jews set up. If they ask, we respond. If they want to learn, we teach. If they say “enough.”, be back off.
The directions are very explicit.

This has been the practice of the great missionaries among the Jews for centuries, beginning in 1219 in Jerusalem, later with the Dominicans in Spain, later again with the Catholics in Poland who welcomed the Jews and did not bother them and such great men as Francis of Assisi, Vincent Ferrer, Vincent de Paul, John XXIII, John Paul II and now Benedict XVI.

It’s really interesting, because the push to convert the Jews has never come from the Vatican. It has always come from the bottom up. The Holy See has always walked on egg shells on that subject. It never came out against it and never established a formal plan either. I believe that part of it may have been, because some of the push to convert Jews was more political than religious zeal.

In Spain, the Spanish government was very hard on them and pushed them into ghettos. Had it not been for the Dominicans and Franciscans who stood in the way between the crown and the Jews, the Jews in Spain would have been forced to convert to Christianity. The Franciscans have done much during the last 800 years to persuade the Holy See to have Catholics treat the Jews with respect and not to push them to Christianity. The Dominicans have always argued that the Jews have a special place in God’s plan and that Jesus will find a way to bring them into the Church. They are not lost, except for those who refuse to enter when the time comes. The Carmelites have always protected the rights of the Jews to exist as a religion, which will find its way to the fulfillment of the covenant. In other words, the covenant has been fulfilled. These people have to realize this on their own, without our pushing.

Catholic history is very clear that the concern with the conversion of the Jews is from individuals, not a collective concern of the Church. The Church prays that the Jewish people will recognize Christ as the Messiah promised to our fathers and she invites the Jewish people to come along and explore this possibility. But she does not want to endorse any kind of campaign.

Part of this may also have to do with the Church’s dislike for Protestant proselytism. You know, the guys who knock on your door on a Saturday morning asking you if you have been saved or who want to tell you about the bible. Though we have door to door apostolaates which are very good, we don’t walk in assuming that someone has not been saved as do these other missionaries from other Christian traditions. The Catholic approach is always to invite, to to condemn.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, FFV 🙂
Thank you for this highly informative material.
 
Br. JR,

I’m just testing my understanding here. Would an accurate summary of the policy you are describing be (even if placing the emphasis differently):

We as Catholics desire the conversion of all nations and all individual people to Christ, including the Jews, specifically by their becoming full members of the Catholic Church. We give witness to Christ among all the nations with this end in mind, but we recognize that concerted, organized efforts to specifically convert Jews are likely to be counterproductive.
 
No-one read the Church documents then…

which we are bound to hold as true.
 
Catholic history is very clear that the concern with the conversion of the Jews is from individuals, not a collective concern of the Church.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, FFV 🙂
Question: Is the Church of today concerned with the conversion of people of any religious group? This is a serious question.
 
I dunno. I feel this applies also to how the Catholic Church deals with other faith traditions.

The thing with conversion, it’s not supposed to be a fruit of coercion. It should be done out of love and free will. The Church employs this position because that is how She came into existence, and because that’s how God calls us to conversion. He calls us to convert (for those of us who are already in the Church: to turn away from sin) out of love by loving us first.
I believe that this is very true
Hi Brother JR,

I don’t have the knowledge to just start citing documents and I’m too tired to research right now.

However, a while ago, there was a thread on the prayer in the 1962 missal for the conversion of the “faithless” Jews, which was later changed. If the Church never thought the Jews needed to convert, that would not have been there.

Now that doesn’t mean that the Jews are not to be respected as the people who received God’s law. We are Jews by adoption. But to say that they do not need to convert? That’s what confuses me.
I just picked up on what may be confusing you. Two things:
  1. The wording of the old prayer was very harsh. It was changed to reflect what the Church really wants, which is to see the Jews recognize Christ as the Messiah. This is conversion.
  2. Notice what I bolded in red. The Church has never said that she does not want the Jews to convert. She is saying that she will not support or tolerate an organized effort to convert the Jews. And the current statement points to what the Protestants do when they go out to pull Catholics into their churches.
The Church finds that method of “missionary work” (observe quotations) to be very inappropriate, especially when applied to Jews. It treats them as if they were hopeless souls. Which is not the case. God has not forgotten his promise to save Israel. Somehow, someway, and someday, God will bring home those Jews who want to come home. It can be at the hour of their death or at the Second Coming. We just don’t know. We only know that God keeps his promises.
I’m not confused, I think Br. is wrong.
Thank you. The only problem is that if you think that I’m wrong, then you must think that the Holy See is also wrong, because I’m only repeating what the Holy See has said.
Br. JR,

I’m just testing my understanding here. Would an accurate summary of the policy you are describing be (even if placing the emphasis differently):

We as Catholics desire the conversion of all nations and all individual people to Christ, including the Jews, specifically by their becoming full members of the Catholic Church.
Absolutely
 
We give witness to Christ among all the nations with this end in mind, but we recognize that concerted, organized efforts to specifically convert Jews are likely to be counterproductive.
Absolutely

Not only are they counter productive, but as Pope Benedict has said repeatedly, we are only getting in God’s way, because God has a plan for the Jews. Pope Benedict did not pull this out of his sleeve. This idea has been “cooking” for centuries. To this day, no one really understands all of it. We come a little closer, but we’re not there yet.

One of the most interesting facts of history that we (Jews and Christians) forget is that Jews and Christians arrive in Rome at about the same time and lived as neighbors for the past 2000 years. If we had an old map, we would see that at the bottom of Vatican Hill there was a large Jewish community, which is still there today. They’re just on the other side of the River Tiber. The Christians never bothered them, nor they the Christians.

The Jews lived in Spain for about 800 years and were never bothered until the 15th century. Many Spanish Jews converted because of the good influence from Catholics, as True Light has shared. They were not pushed in any way, as were the indigenous people of South America and parts of Africa. In other words, there was a lot of good Christian living that gave strong witness to the Gospel, without proselytizing or what we would call campaigns to convert them.

When there were a few of these campaigns, they were not initiated by the Vatican. They initiated locally. That’s when the Franciscans and Dominicans always stepped in between and demanded both sides to step down. The Jews also responded with aggression. It was not pretty. This is a good example of proselytism that is counter productive. It almost triggered civil war in Spain. We have to remember that after 800 years all of those Muslims and Jews in Spain were Spaniards. They were no longer Palestinians. Their culture and that of the Catholics around them had evolved. That’s how the Catholics got the Mozarabic Rite in Spain. It began with Muslim converts.

I truly believe that part of the Church’s resistance to any campaign to convert Jews comes from experience. Jews would rather die than be Christianized. However, when Christians give witness to the Gospel, Jews, like any other rational people, take notice.

I offer my own example. I did not come into the Catholic faith 42 or 43 years ago, because someone sat me down and taught me Catholicism 101. I attended school run by Capuchin Franciscans. Their witness was astounding. I wanted to know more about them. I read about St. Francis and fell in love with the man. I wanted to know more about him. Eventually, I wanted to be like him. Guess what? I had to be a Catholic to be like him. So, instead of day dreaming through religion class, which I had to attend, even though I was not Catholic, I started to ask questions. More than four decades later, here I am: a Catholic, a Franciscan, a religious superior and a Doctor of Theology. It all started with an invitation from the Holy Spirit to checkout the friars. The friars planted the seed by the way they lived. My schoolmates planted the seed by the way they lived. My neighbors, most of whom were Irish Catholics, planted the seed by their kindness and joy in their faith. No one made me copy the Baltimore Catechism.

If anyone had tried to convert me, I would have run in the opposite direction. I grew up in a very devout Jewish home, where observance of the Jewish faith was as natural as eating and drinking. To ask me to be anything other than Jewish was like asking me to stop eating and drinking. It wasn’t going to happen. As I watched my Franciscans, what I noticed was that they ate and drank something different. I didn’t have to stop eating and drinking. I just had to change the menu.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, FFV 🙂
 
Question: Is the Church of today concerned with the conversion of people of any religious group? This is a serious question.
Yes, she is. But she goes about it in a very prudent and cautious manner, for several reasons.
  1. She knows that she must first convert Catholics back to Christianity, as St. Clare was fond of telling St. Francis. She was an incredible young woman who understood that there was more to being Catholic than rituals and sacraments. The Orthodox have those too. The Church knows this as well. She must convert her own people.
  2. The Church also knows what she does not like having done to her and to her people. Therefore, she will not do it to others.
  3. The Church realizes that conversion requires the gift of faith. One must fertilize the soil so that God can plant the seed. This is why I always bring up examples like Mother Teresa. Look at her congregation. There are more than 3,000 sisters and 2,000 brothers. Ninety percent of them are converts. Why? She planted the seed. She lived the Gospel. When a Hindu said to her that he would not clean the wounds of a leper for a million dollars, she said, “Neither would I. But for him (as she pointed to the crucifix) I can do it.” That’s evangelization. St. Damien de Veuster converted hundreds of Hawaiians. How? He took care of them in a leper colony. St. John Bosco converted hundreds of boys. How? He offered them a safe place to live, study and play. While he played soccer with them, he would talk to them about God. Francis of Assisi converted thousands of Catholics. How? By being charming, humble, faithful and tugging at their hearts. All of these are means to fertilized the ground so that the Holy Spirit can plant the seed.
The Church tries to plant the seed by making herself present, living the Gospel in a very visible way, preaching truth and being very patient with people.
  1. The Church remembers history. She remembers the tragic outcomes when she tried to force conversions. There were martyrs on both sides. She does not want to go there again. She cannot put innocent lives at risk like that. We think that the Eastern Catholics have it bad now, living in a Muslim world. Imagine what hell they would live in, if the Church went on an overt campaign to convert Muslims. The Church must save souls, but as Evangelium Vitae tells us, she must remember the sacredness of life. She cannot endanger lives. She has to find other ways of delivering the Gospel.
I recently read a report on the Internet, if the internet can be believed, that more than 100,000 people had been received into the Church at the Easter Vigil and most of them adults.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, FFV 🙂
 
I was just telling someone today how no Catholic ever spoke to me about their faith. I considered Catholicism a joke as people only seemed to be Catholic on Ash Wednesday, Christmas and Easter.

I wish someone had spoken to me.

I think the term proselytize is often used interchangeable with preaching. But if it is used to mean forcing folks to convert, I don’t I know anybody in this day and age who would “force” someone to convert.

I found Catholicism on Catholic Answers, and to me it was a form of preaching.

Yes, you folks told me that Protestantism was not the true faith and that I should long for the fullness of the faith.

You told me that I was in error and I appreciated that.

I’m glad at that point I wasn’t reading too much of the ecumenical stuff, so I knew I had to change things. Otherwise, I might have just stayed where I was, comfortable as can be.
True. I apologize if i didn’t get all the facts straight about your faith experience. However, wasn’t your conversion influenced by the life of the Saints you read and the ol’ resident FFV Franciscan you’re so fond of? 🙂
 
I’m glad at that point I wasn’t reading too much of the ecumenical stuff, so I knew I had to change things. Otherwise, I might have just stayed where I was, comfortable as can be.
Starting with Vatican 2 the Catholic Church headed down the disasterous path of ecumenism.

Ecumenism inevitably leads to religious indifferentism.
 
Starting with Vatican 2 the Catholic Church headed down the disasterous path of ecumenism.

Ecumenism inevitably leads to religious indifferentism.
That seems an unusual position for an atheist to hold. :o

Would you be willing to describe how you reached it?
 
That seems an unusual position for an atheist to hold. :o

Would you be willing to describe how you reached it?
I wasn’t always an atheist. I still have a soft spot in my heart for the Catholic Church. It hurts to see how she has destroyed herself.
 
I forgot to say that Reflections on Covenant and Mission was the last straw for me. That and the Vatican’s silence in the face of such public heresy.
 
MONDAY, JUNE 22, 2009

USCCB Clarifies ‘Reflections on Covenant and Mission’

catholickey.blogspot.ca/2009/06/usccb-clarifies-reflections-on-covenant.html
The USCCB reaffirms what the Holy See has stated repeatedly: that while the Catholic Church does not proselytize the Jewish people, neither does she fail to witness to them her faith in Christ, nor to welcome them to share in that same faith whenever appropriate.” Bishop Lori said. He added that current debates over the question of how Catholics understand the covenant with Moses in relation to Christ were equally important. The covenant with Moses, that continues to be adhered to by Jews today, is fulfilled, Christians believe, in Jesus.
“As followers of Jesus, we see his covenant as fulfilling God’s plan for the salvation of all peoples, both now and at the end of time,” Bishop Lori said.
Here’s the document: old.usccb.org/doctrine/covenant09.pdf
The document correctly acknowledges that “Judaism is a religion that springs from divine revelation” and that “it is only about Israel’s covenant that the Church can speak with the certainty of the biblical witness.” Nevertheless, it is incomplete and potentially misleading in this context to refer to the enduring quality of the covenant without adding that for Catholics Jesus Christ as the incarnate Son of God fulfills both in history and at the end of time the special relationship that God established with Israel.
The Second Vatican Council explained:
The principal purpose to which the plan of the old covenant was directed was to prepare for the coming of Christ, the redeemer of all and of the messianic kingdom, to announce this coming by prophecy, and to indicate its meaning through various types. The long story of God’s intervention in the history of Israel comes to its unsurpassable culmination in Jesus Christ, who is God become man.
 
Reflections on Covenant and Mission professed dual covenant theology. The Catechism of the Catholic Church issued by the USCCB said that the Old Covenant is salvific for Jews.

Thanks to the persistent efforts of Bob Sungenis this heresy was finally changed. But it took seven years and the passing of JP2 before it was changed.

By then I had already become an atheist.
 
The Church said we must give testimonies, testify about Christ, proclaiming Jesus as Lord and Messiah.

But proclaiming Christ and testify about Him, is not the same as forcing someone to embrace the faith or being uncharitable.

If people ask, we answer. If we find opportunity to share about Christ, we do, in words and works. But we must remember we are sowing, not reaping. Conversion must come from within the person.

I see that from this thread, all party agree that we need to give testimony about Christ.
The problem is in the word “convert.”
One party think, by not converting someone, means stop proclaiming Jesus.
Another party think that “convert” has negative meaning, by force if necessary baggage attached to it.

So let us make it clear, the Church is not stop evangelizing, but caution very much how this evangelization should be exercised.
 
Starting with Vatican 2 the Catholic Church headed down the disasterous path of ecumenism.

Ecumenism inevitably leads to religious indifferentism.
Actually, ecumenism existed since 1219. It began with the erection of the Franciscan Province of Jerusalem, which later became the Custody of the Holy Land under the direction of the Franciscans, but independent of a Minister Provincial, it answers directly to the Holy Father.

The mission given to the friars who traveled there was to protect the holy sites, minister to Christians, practice the corporal works of mercy toward Christians, Jews and Muslims, engage the Jews and Muslims in dialogue, but refrain from proselytizing to them. However, they were not to hide the Christian faith or their vocation to the Gospel Life. They were to live it publicly and to answer with truth when asked. The were to avoid all arguments and confrontations with Muslims, Jews and Eastern Orthodox when these later arrived. They were to create cooperative works that benefit the poor of whatever religious belief they might be.

Fast forward to the 15th century Spain. Again, the Franciscans were sent to southern Spain to buffer the conflicts between the Catholics on one side and the Jews and Muslims on the other. They were to broker agreements that allowed the three faiths to co-exist harmoniously with justice for all three. They were to preach against aggression and violence. They were to give witness to the Gospel and to catechize only the willing.

Right behind them, as was customary, the Dominicans arrived to teach the faith. In keeping with the mandate of St. Dominic, they were not to force the Christian faith on the non-Christians, but make it available. They were, however, to teach anyone who asked to be taught the faith, to strengthen the education of the clergy and the laity alike.
 
Let’s fast forward to America. in 1904 a Capuchin Franciscan Friar, Fr. Stephen Eckert came to Yonkers, NY. Among his other apostolates, one of them was to visit the Protestants and Jews in the parish. Fr. Stephen prayed with them and offered them whatever form of material assistance they needed and he could find. He also made sure that the relations between the growing Catholic community, the Protestants and Jews was a peaceful one.

Under his tutelege was a younger friar named Solanus Casey, now Ven. Solanus Casey, who life of heroic virtue has been investigated and proven. Fr. Solanus was assigned to serve as porter and spiritual guide to whomever came to the friary. Fr. Solanus was also responsible for visiting the sick and praying with them. He learned from Fr. Stephen the power of prayer and corporal works of mercy. He too extended his ministry to the sick to include Protestants and Jews, whose homes he visited and with whom he prayed at the hour of their need.

During the Great Depresssion, the friars in Detroit would open the biggest soup kitchen in the USA with the help of Protestants and Jews working side by side. In the meantime, the friars in the Holy Land were opening family centers for the education and protection of Palestinians children and victims of conflict of all faiths. At these centers, Muslims prayed with Muslims, Jews prayed with Jews, Orthodox prayed with Orthodox, and Catholics prayed with Catholics. I don’t know exactly when they started to pray together. I believe that came in the latter part of the 20th century, maybe after the 70s. However, the stage had been set by generations of Franciscans.

At the same time, the Polish province of Conventual Franciscans was sending missionaries to Japan and to India. Fr. Maximilian Kolbe was sent as the superior, first to the mission in Japan and later to India. In both situations, he wrote back to the friars telling them about the people and their spiritual and material needs. There were two interesting statements that repeated in his letters. He told the friars to lay aside their habits and travel in civilian clothing, because it was less shocking to the local population than to arrive in the Franciscan habit. The habit would be introduced later.

His second comment was actually an idea that he probably read in the letters of St. Francis Xavier, because the words sound very similar. He said that it was not appropriate to bring European Catholicism to the East. It was more appropriate to Christianize that which was Japanese and later that which was Indian. While it was true that St. Maximilian took the Conventual Franciscans there to preach the Gospel, it was also true that he had a great sensitivity to their culture and to their religious practices. Instead of trying to annul them or replace them with European practices, the friars tried to preserve whatever was good in the local culture and spirituality. Friar Maximilian was killed in 1941 Auschwitz to save the life of a Jewish father. He surrendered his life in the place of the young father, because of his strong belief in the sacredness of the family, regardless of the faith they practiced.

A few years later, in 1946, in Calcutta, a young nun asked to be dispensed from the cloister to live in the streets as a sister, instead of nun. She began her service to the poorest of the poor. Over the years, she drew many young Hindu women to her, who later became Catholic Missionaries of Charity. Mother Teresa, her sisters and religious brothers were working side by side with non Catholics since the 1950s. These included Protestant volunteers for Europe and the Americas as well as Hindus from many parts of India.

Mother never made it a point to hide Jesus from the people for whom she cared. However, she also made is a custom to pray to the Trinity, while alongside her a Hindu or a Muslim said his prayers. By the time she died in 1997, she had brought over 5,000 Hindus into the faith as religious brothers and sisters. We know that many of her Protestant volunteers converted to Catholicism. However, we don’t have a head count on those. The religious are easier to track.

Along with the Missionaries of Charity, the Franciscans are the largest religious order in India with its own Indian provinces of several thousand friars, many former Hindus or children of Hindu converts who had been exposed to the friars for centuries.

The word ecumenism was an unknown word to these folks. But ecumenism was not an unknown to them. As far as they were concerned, they were simply being Christian and their goal was to fulfill Christ’s prayer that all may be one. The work of these men and women is not to be confused with interfaith pluralism, which is different from ecumenism. This is not what they believed or what they practiced. What the contributed to the Church was a model for building unity among Christians, opening the doors to non-Christians, and preaching to all non-Catholics through gentle word (catechesis) and courageous and sacrificial corporal works of mercy.

Vatican II amplified the term ecumenical to include this particular mission of the Church that had been in place since the Middle Ages or maybe before. There are some hints that the Benedictine monks did a lot for the unity between Christians and non-Christians through their rule of hospitality to all people, regardless of their faith or their feelings toward the Church. How much else they Benedictines did with non-Christians, I do not know, because Benedictine history is very complex and I’m not an expert in it.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, FFV 🙂
 
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