Jewish theology concerning the messiah

[stillsmallvoice]

Hi all!

I 'pologize for not posting much sooner & I 'pologize again for posting & running now. I’ve had a drop-everything project dumped on me here at the office that I’ve got to get done before I go to a local Jerusalem hospital on Sunday morning (Sunday being a workday here) to have my left inguinal hernia repaired. So, whether I’m at the office or on the computer at home, I’ve had zero time to do anything but work. I thank you all for your patience; I’ll try to post something more substantial either late tonight or on Saturday night.

Be well!

ssv

 

[stillsmallvoice]

Hi all!

I’m at home convalescing from my surgery from this past Sunday.

Lessee…

Greg, you posted:

Secondly, if some Jewish people accept the Messianic meaning of Psalm 110 on what basis can one say that it can not be Jesus?

It is an axiom of normative, traditional (i.e. orthodox) Judaism that there are ***no ***references to Jesus, the Trinity or the Incarnation anywhere in the Tanakh (although there are references to Christianity and, for that matter, Islam).

Do we agree that belief in Jesus as the Messiah is a matter of faith and cannot be “disproven” (by Jewish Scripture and tradition) or “proven” (by Jewish and Christian Scripture and Christian Tradition)?

I will agree that faith is not mathematics; the latter is given to proofs, the former is not. I will further agree that belief in Jesus is a matter of Christian faith (only) since traditional Jewish understandings/interpretations of the Tanakh absolutely rule out the possibility that Jesus is/could be the Messiah.

What Jewish person would claim to fully understand the Jewish Scriptures so well that he/she can exclude reasonable meanings?

Reasonable is an inherently subjective term. To us, Christian interpretations of Tanakh passages in dispute are not “reasonable”. So says the weight of Jewish tradition & the collective wisdom of our Sages (see Deuteronomy XXX).

We are to follow God where He leads us.

I believe that you are 100% sincere. I agree with you; we also believe that we must follow God where He leads us. The catch (there’s always one of those) is that we each passionately believe that God is leading us in divergent directions. Like Hamlet says, “Ay, there’s the rub.”

Cabaret, you posted:

The question I’d like to ask is why there is such a desire to have us accept that “There’s a faint possibility Jesus might possibly, vaguely have been Messiah”…

Did you ever watch that old TV series Northern Exposure? In one episode, the town sponsored a grueling marathon for wheelchair-bound athletes. One of the competitors was plagued by her personal demon, External Validation (personified as a smartly dressed handsome young man named Oscar Pulitzer). One of the show’s regulars, Ed (whose personal demon was Low Self-Esteem, personified as an ugly little green man) tried to help her overcome her personal demon. I (the amateur psychologist) think that most people crave external validation. How do you know that you’re OK, right, etc.? What makes you feel secure in your beliefs? When everyone around you does as you do, believes as you do, acts as you do, and is as you are. But along comes someone, the Jew, who refuses to act, think or believe as you do (but refuses both bribes and threats to do so and prefers degradation, humiliation or even death as the price of maintaining his own beliefs, customs, ways of thinking & acting, etc). My thoroughly uneducated & amateurish guess is that when a Jew accedes to the Christian point-of-view in the age-old debate between our respective faiths, for a Christian that is External Validation Deluxe With Whipped Cream, Maple Syrup, Nuts, Chocolate Sprinkles & a Maraschino Cherry on top!

ChrisB, you posted:

Catholic Cultures tend to be very ritualized and somewhat more superstition than Reformational Christianity. We tend to have lots of cool little prayers for all sorts of things and practice a greater amount of reverence of religious items.

Orthodox Judaism is very similar to Catholic cultural traditions in this regard!

Cabaret, you added:

Never let it be thought that Jewish life lacks folk practices and superstitions…I don’t think they’re things to make fun of, I think they’re often rather charming and speak of a simple piety.

You are, of course, quite right!

(cont.)

 

[stillsmallvoice]

(cont.)

ChrisB, you posted:

My mother used to light candles all the time, especially during times of illness and when deaths in the family occurred. The lighting of prayer candles is a very Catholic thing and is rather charming as well…

Lighting candles is also very Jewish!

Proverbs 20:27 says, “The soul of man is the candle of the Lord.” Some of my Jewish friends will not blow out birthday candles. I have the following peculiar (superstitious?) habit: Every Friday evening (the eve of Shabbat, i.e, the Sabbath; see jewfaq.org/shabbat.htm) & holyday eve, DW lights 4 candles, one for each member of our family (some Jewish women light only 2 candles; others, like DW, light one candle for each member of their families) & says the appropriate blessing, ushering in Shabbat/the holyday. If one of the candles should happen to go out or be blown out (by wind, the air-conditioner, etc.), I will take care to re-light the candle Saturday evening (after Shabbat is over & it’s OK to light a fire) & let it burn itself out naturally. I’ll chip wax away from the wick & use however many matches I need to get it lit (we use little round candles that fit inside a clear glass candle-holder). When DW asked me why I do this, I told her that the candle’s destiny is to burn. If it cannot burn, it cannot fulfill its destiny. This disturbs something in one of the upper spheres; the resulting imbalance has to be righted somehow and that “somehow” might not be to my liking. I have to relight the candle & let it burn itself out naturally for the same reason why some Jews don’t blow out birthday candles. Why is this? Because, “The soul of man is the candle of the Lord.”

Proverbs 20:27 crops up in other ways with us. (Orthodox) Jews (myself included) have the habit of swaying/rocking the body during prayer (both seated & standing). This has been documented since ancient times. In the Zohar (which is one of the main texts of Kabbalah, see tinyurl.com/6ydnt, scroll down to the section entitled “Jewish mysticism”), Rabbi Yossi asks Rabbi Abba: “Why is it that among all nations the Jews alone have the habit of swaying the body when they study the Torah?” Rabbi Abba answers: “It illustrates the excellence of their souls. Proverbs 20:27 refers to them: 'The soul of man is the candle of the Lord ’ The light of that candle flickers and wavers in unison with the light of the Torah.” (I’ve culled some of the above from The Jewish Encyclopedia.)

Traditionally, it is the wife/mother who lights these candles (in the home) but a single man, living away from his parents’ home, may also do so, although he should ask a LOR (Local Orthodox Rabbi) first. When I go to my annual stint of reserve duty & I’m in for Shabbat, I light candles but do not say the blessig ('cause my wife is lighting them at home and saying the blessings). Mourners also light memorial candles that burn for 7 days during the week of mourning following the passing of a first-degree relative (parent, spouse, sibling or child); mourners will light 24-hour candles on the anniversary of their first degree relative’s passing & on 4 holydays during the year when special memorial prayers for the departed are said (see jewfaq.org/death.htm#Mourning). Then, of course, our winter holyday of Hanukkah (jewfaq.org/holiday7.htm) centers on the lighting of a special 9-branched candelabra (known as a menorah).

Be well!

ssv

 

[Greg_McPherran]

Hi SSV,

Great to hear from you again! Thank you for your sincere responses.

I know cabaret (I hope she posts again) prefers to discuss other topics and I fear I have alienated her a tad with my preference to discuss Scripture. This thread is about the Messiah so we should probably stay on topic in this particular thread. However, if you or cabaret would like to discuss any other topic at all, feel free to post here:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=20351

or start any other thread you may like.

I do enjoy discussing Scripture. If you are interested in discussing any particular Scriptures, I would be very happy to. I want to make it clear, that the Catholic way is not to claim “proof” and I never have that attitude. You can tell me your interpretations and I can tell you ours. I would be interested to explore why ours would be considered incorrect but still would never criticize your interpretations. Rather, I would be very interested in a friendly discussion of the various Scriptures in question in the spirit of sharing and not in the spirit of debate.

If you are interested in such a discussion, please feel free to open with a Scripture passage that you would like to discuss.

Great to hear from you again and Shalom!

Greg

 

[Greg_McPherran]

Hi SSV,

I read this part also.

stillsmallvoice:

How do you know that you’re OK, right, etc.? What makes you feel secure in your beliefs? When everyone around you does as you do, believes as you do, acts as you do, and is as you are. But along comes someone, the Jew, who refuses to act, think or believe as you do (but refuses both bribes and threats to do so and prefers degradation, humiliation or even death as the price of maintaining his own beliefs, customs, ways of thinking & acting, etc). My thoroughly uneducated & amateurish guess is that when a Jew accedes to the Christian point-of-view in the age-old debate between our respective faiths, for a Christian that is External Validation Deluxe With Whipped Cream, Maple Syrup, Nuts, Chocolate Sprinkles & a Maraschino Cherry on top!

Actually, if I could clarify, believe it or not, that’s not the case at all, unless subconscious. The real point I was trying to make is why is it necessary that Christianity must not even be seen as valid even if you don’t believe it.

However, after further thought I realize that it doesn’t make much sense to think that way because anyone of any faith by definition is not going to consider someone else’s valid.

So I admit, it now seems it was senseless to pursue that line of thought.

Greg

 

[Ghosty]

But along comes someone, the Jew, who refuses to act, think or believe as you do (but refuses both bribes and threats to do so and prefers degradation, humiliation or even death as the price of maintaining his own beliefs, customs, ways of thinking & acting, etc).

It’s important to remember that Jews are not the first, nor even the most adamant, people of this type that Christians have dealt with. Jews don’t represent the “holy grail” of conversions by any stretch, either historically or currently (one could argue that the conversion of the Latin American Indians is the closest thing to an incredible historical victory for the Church, although the conversion of the Romans was obviously big time too). The importance of converting Jews has more to do with the historical mission of the Church and how it was fundamentally, and I would argue still is, for the people of Israel first and foremost. The Church views itself as 100% part of the People of Israel, so it’s doubly important to not slack off on the “branches that have fallen away”, to use Paul’s own terms.

Jews are considered a very special “conversion”, but precisely because they are already a part of the same tree, not because they are different. Again, as Paul stated, how much greater is the tree that has all its fallen branches reunited to it? For some there are definately the elements you describe, but I don’t believe they represent the overall historical, or modern, reality of the Church. I can say that personally my reason for hoping for Jews recognizing Jesus as the Messiah has everything to do with my respect for the Jewish faith and hope for the Messiah. Since I believe that Jesus was the Messiah, I would be remiss in my human duty to not hope and pray for the “conversion” of a people that so genuinely yearns and prays for the coming of a person I believe is already here, a people who often seem to have more genuine love and hope for the Messiah, and respect for God, than many nominal Christians. I don’t have any desire for Jews to abandon their traditions, and in fact I hope to see many of them revived within the Church among non-Jews.

I of course realize that you were simply stating your own humble opinions, and I hope you can recognize everything I’ve just written as the same.

 

[stillsmallvoice]

Hi all!

Ghosty, you posted:

I of course realize that you were simply stating your own humble opinions, and I hope you can recognize everything I’ve just written as the same.

No problem! We’re cool (that goes fot you too, Greg)!

I would also like to point out that as a member of a non-missionizing faith (although we do, of course, accept converts), I sometimes find missionizing faiths a bit perplexing.

Be well!

ssv

 

[cabaret]

stillsmallvoice:

Hi all!

Ghosty, you posted:

No problem! We’re cool (that goes fot you too, Greg

Don’t get too carried away by the “We”, SSV, some of us have an awful lot of issues before it gets cool.

Damn Sabras!

 

[Ghosty]

I would also like to point out that as a member of a non-missionizing faith (although we do, of course, accept converts), I sometimes find missionizing faiths a bit perplexing.

I spent most of my life as an atheist, so I can understand what you mean. Interestingly enough, as I implied in my last post, the roots of my “missionary” feelings actually come from Judaism. In Judaism there is a sense that the whole world will become followers of God after the Messiah comes, but it often seems to be left to some mystery how this will occur. Simply imagine that God recruits the Jewish people to spread the news of the Messiah to the world, as a sort of “new commission”. Of course I understand that this is still a stretch, but it’s how I view the evangelizing process. It’s not a popularity contest by any stretch, but a direct commission from God; I care that people hear the message only insofar as God has commanded that they hear it, and I often feel that the Church would benefit from being “smaller” and only claimed by those who are faithful to it. Remember that if it was any kind of popularity contest or numbers game, the Church wouldn’t have anathemized upwards of 70% of its “population” at certain times in history, often when it could least afford to do so from a numbers standpoint.

Again I liken it to a feast in which the food is bountiful and open for all, and the master of the feast has commanded us to go into the streets and invite everyone we can. It’s a joy to invite others and share the feast. As for the severity of the task, it also has precedent in Judaism, specifically the cleansing of the Canaanites. This isn’t to say that Christians are called to destroy unbelievers, though unfortunately some have taken that tact in history, but rather I intend it to illustrate the gravity with which we are to take our commission from God. Israel suffered for its “lack of commitment” in its task of cleansing, and Christians believe we will be held personally and corporately accountable for “slacking on the job”.

Of course I don’t expect any of this to open up any major new understanding for you, but I figured I’d do my best to explain what I see as a the passion behind missionary activity. In short, view it as a Divine order and not a popularity contest, and you’ll be closer to the mindset of the Church.

God bless

 

[stillsmallvoice]

Hi all!

Cabaret, I moved here from the USA just over 18 years ago (which is also when I decided, quite suddenly, to become religiously observant, i.e. orthodox, and actively embrace the faith into which I had been born).

Ghosty, thank you for your post!

Be well!

ssv

 

[Shoshana]

I kinda had a feeling it would end up like this. Having participated in some Jewish sites (I was not evangelizing just deliberating), the conversation becomes circular. I find it extremely informative. What we (Catholics and all Protestants) need to realize is the the Jews did not reject Jesus (as they see it). He like so many others who claimed to be the Messiah simply did not qualify! The Jews I chatted with with have a criteria on who would be the Messiah.

• He will build the 3rd Temple (Ez 37:26-28)
• Bring all the Jews back to Israel (Isaiah 43:5-6)
• World peace (Isaiah 2:4)
• Universal knowledge of God (the God of Israel, Isaiah 11:9, Jer 31:33).

If he doesn’t accomplish the above, than he is certainly not the Messiah. Also bear in mind that no where in the Tanack does it say that you have to believe in the Messiah when he comes. When the Third Temple will be built, and world peace will prevail over the earth it will be so obvious that the messianic age is here that one won’t have to take anybody’s word for it, you can see it for yourself.

When we (as Catholics and Christians) claim that there is no person in history that fits this description more perfectly than Jesus, the Jews say that we use their Tanach and rewrite the books as we see it fit.

It would be like a Protestant trying to tell us Catholics (which certainly happens) do not interpret Scripture the right way for their way is the only way. You see the similarity? And most of the time, you can deliberate till the cow jumps over the moon, and nobody will get anywhere.

Blessings,
Shoshana

 

[Ghosty]

Shoshana: No one here is trying to say that Jews are wrong in their interpretation, however, merely that it can’t be said from simply reading Scripture who is right and who is wrong. It was the website that Cabaret posted that attacked the Christian position outright as being wrong. The point is that neither side has an airtight argument based purely on Scripture.