Jewish traditions in Catholicism

[Kaninchen]

Thank you for pointing that out. I think that was the root of your consternation, no, that confession was not to the priest but to God?

In Christianity, Christ works vicariously through the priest, who has been given authority to forgive sins on behalf of Christ. It is kind of like the police, if you will, who are granted authority by the civil government and through whom the government acts. Anything they do is not by virtue of who they are, but by virtue of the authority they have been granted. That authority can be taken away.

But to the point being made, is it your understanding that the confession was oral, that sins were actually stated?

-Tim-

On the one hand, while on the other hand, meanwhile on yet another hand . . . (my CAF formula for most things Jewish )

Briefly, it would depend on what we’re talking about, there’s the sense of the ‘we’ve all been very naughty in various ways’ (public statement of kinds of sin, the individual’s transgressions being subsumed in the general), in an individual sense it would depend on whether the sin could be described as ‘against God’ (private) or ‘against somebody’ (could be public).

 

[mercytruth]

On the one hand, while on the other hand, meanwhile on yet another hand . . . (my CAF formula for most things Jewish )

Briefly, it would depend on what we’re talking about, there’s the sense of the ‘we’ve all been very naughty in various ways’ (public statement of kinds of sin, the individual’s transgressions being subsumed in the general), in an individual sense it would depend on whether the sin could be described as ‘against God’ (private) or ‘against somebody’ (could be public).

Thanks Tevye, or should I say Rabbi?

I think the Catholic faith has more in common with Judaism with regard to the confession of sins, then either Catholics, or Jews realize. According to this link there were Jewish sects who suggested that one should confess their sins to a Kohen, a friend, or a spiritual advisor. Nevertheless, the universal belief was that one confessed one’s sins to God alone.

The public and private prayers of confession within Judaism are certainly something Catholics would benefit in understanding, and knowing that Yom Kippur is set apart above all days for private and public confession of sins against God and against one’s neighbor.

oztorah.com/2009/09/confession-of-sins-a-liturgical-commentary/

G-d’s peace

Micah

 

[Kaninchen]

Thanks Tevye, or should I say Rabbi?

Well, rabbit would be more accurate (Kaninchen is ‘rabbit’ in German; coniglia - in my signature - is ‘rabbit [f]’ in Italian).

I think the Catholic faith has more in common with Judaism with regard to the confession of sins, then either Catholics, or Jews realize. According to this link there were Jewish sects who suggested that one should confess their sins to a Kohen, a friend, or a spiritual advisor. Nevertheless, the universal belief was that one confessed one’s sins to God alone.

I think one has to be careful over what one sees as links. For example, the ‘sects’ you’re talking about were Medieval, not pre-Christian, and may well have been influenced by Christian ideas (in the same way that various customs were picked up from host societies).

 

[TimothyH]

On the one hand, while on the other hand, meanwhile on yet another hand . . . (my CAF formula for most things Jewish )

Briefly, it would depend on what we’re talking about, there’s the sense of the ‘we’ve all been very naughty in various ways’ (public statement of kinds of sin, the individual’s transgressions being subsumed in the general), in an individual sense it would depend on whether the sin could be described as ‘against God’ (private) or ‘against somebody’ (could be public).

Fascinating.

Completely ambiguous, nebulous and non-commital, but fascinating nonetheless.
.
Thanks!

-Tim-

 

[mercytruth]

Well, rabbit would be more accurate (Kaninchen is ‘rabbit’ in German; coniglia - in my signature - is ‘rabbit [f]’ in Italian).

I think one has to be careful over what one sees as links. For example, the ‘sects’ you’re talking about were Medieval, not pre-Christian, and may well have been influenced by Christian ideas (in the same way that various customs were picked up from host societies).

Kanichen,

My pardon, ‘on the other hand’ sounded like somthing from the dialogue of Fiddler on the Roof, and I can not remember if it was Tevye, or the Rabbi.

Now as far as the rare minority of Jewish sects who advised penitents to go to a kohen, friend, or spiritual advisor, of course, they were a very small minority within the history of Judaism.

My point of commonality has more to do with our shared concept of sin and the need to seek God’s forgiveness. The High Priest, Kohen Gadol of Yom Kippur did act as a mediator between the people of Israel and G-d for the forgiveness of sin… according to the
aforementioned link.

In the Temple, the Kohen Gadol, the High Priest, made confession on Yom Kippur for himself and his household, for the kohanim, and for the people (he placed himself first, in accordance with the principle that only he who is pure can plead for others).

G-d’s peace

Micah

 

[Kaninchen]

In the Temple, the Kohen Gadol, the High Priest, made confession on Yom Kippur for himself and his household, for the kohanim, and for the people (he placed himself first, in accordance with the principle that only he who is pure can plead for others).

G-d’s peace

Micah

Which comes under my “we’ve all been very naughty in various ways” heading. The High Priest was ‘voicing’ the general naughtiness rather than acting as a mediator.

Certainly, there are shared ideas of sin and forgiveness but one always has to be careful how far one pushes similarities to avoid ‘biting bits off jigsaw pieces to make them fit’.

 

[mercytruth]

Which comes under my “we’ve all been very naughty in various ways” heading. The High Priest was ‘voicing’ the general naughtiness rather than acting as a mediator.

Certainly, there are shared ideas of sin and forgiveness but one always has to be careful how far one pushes similarities to avoid ‘biting bits off jigsaw pieces to make them fit’.

Kaninchen,

Isn’t **‘pleading for others’ ** the action of a mediator?

G-d’s peace

Micah

 

[Kaninchen]

Kaninchen,

Isn’t **‘pleading for others’ ** the action of a mediator?

G-d’s peace

Micah

It was first person plural, not third person plural, ie ‘we’ve been very naughty,’ not ‘they’ve been very naughty.’

 

[mercytruth]

It was first person plural, not third person plural, ie ‘we’ve been very naughty,’ not ‘they’ve been very naughty.’

This is the beautiful understanding within Judaism, that sin is thought of as corporate guilt as much as anything else. This is the manner in which righteous Daniel prayed for his people:

“O Lord, in accordance with all Thy righteous acts, let now Thine anger and Thy wrath turn away from Thy city Jerusalem, Thy holy mountain; for because of our sins and the iniquities of our fathers, Jerusalem and Thy people have become a reproach to all those around us. (Daniel 9:16)

So, there have been prayerful intercessors in the history of Judaism, who were qualified to intercede for the people of Israel because of their personal righteousness, or holiness. Eventhough they prayed in the personal plural pronoun of ‘we’, or ‘our’.

Thus, as the aforementioned Rabbi says,

**In the Temple, the Kohen Gadol, the High Priest, made confession on Yom Kippur for himself and his household, for the kohanim, and for the people (he placed himself first, in accordance with the principle that only he who is pure can plead for others). **

G-d’s peace

Micah

 

[Kaninchen]

This is the beautiful understanding within Judaism, that sin is thought of as corporate guilt as much as anything else. This is the manner in which righteous Daniel prayed for his people:

**“O Lord, in accordance with all Thy righteous acts, let now Thine anger and Thy wrath turn away from Thy city Jerusalem, Thy holy mountain; for because of our sins **and the iniquities of our fathers, Jerusalem and Thy people have become a reproach to all those around us. (Daniel 9:16)

So, there have been prayerful intercessors in the history of Judaism, who were qualified to intercede for the people of Israel because of their personal righteousness, or holiness. Eventhough they prayed in the personal plural pronoun of ‘we’, or ‘our’.

Thus, as the aforementioned Rabbi says,

In the Temple, the Kohen Gadol, the High Priest, made confession on Yom Kippur for himself and his household, for the kohanim, and for the people (he placed himself first, in accordance with the principle that only he who is pure can plead for others).

G-d’s peace

Micah

You have to appreciate that I do understand where you’re going with this (I have done from the outset), in other words the need to interpret the High Priest as the ‘pure’ ‘intercessor’.

So, in what sense was the High Priest ‘pure’? What does ‘pure’ mean?

 

[mercytruth]

You have to appreciate that I do understand where you’re going with this (I have done from the outset), in other words the need to interpret the High Priest as the ‘pure’ ‘intercessor’.

So, in what sense was the High Priest ‘pure’? What does ‘pure’ mean?

Kaninchen,

To be honest with you, I do not have a hidden agenda. My reason for quoting this Rabbi from Australia is to show that there is a historical perception within Judaism that there needs(ed) to be a mediator,or intercessor between G-d and the people of Israel for the remission of sin.

Within the context of Judaism I would not be able to define the term, ‘pure’.
Within Christianity, ideally, it would mean without fault, or sin.

G-d’s peace

Micah

 

[Kaninchen]

Kaninchen,

To be honest with you, I do not have a hidden agenda. My reason for quoting this Rabbi from Australia is to show that there is a historical perception within Judaism that there needs(ed) to be a mediator,or intercessor between G-d and the people of Israel for the remission of sin.

Within the context of Judaism I would not be able to define the term, ‘pure’.
Within Christianity, ideally, it would mean without fault, or sin.

G-d’s peace

Micah

It’s ‘ritual purity’, he’d bathed in the mikveh several times and washed his hands several times after that (words like pure/impure/clean/unclean refer not to levels of holiness or dirtiness but to whether something is ‘ritually’ pure/impure/clean/unclean).

After all that ritual, he was the (ritually) ‘purest’ person around, then he proclaims ‘we’ve all been very naughty’, not as mediator or intercessor but as ‘voicer’ (being the ritually purest guy around).

 

[mercytruth]

It’s ‘ritual purity’, he’d bathed in the mikveh several times and washed his hands several times after that (words like pure/impure/clean/unclean refer not to levels of holiness or dirtiness but to whether something is ‘ritually’ pure/impure/clean/unclean).

After all that ritual, he was the (ritually) ‘purest’ person around, then he proclaims ‘we’ve all been very naughty’, not as mediator or intercessor but as ‘voicer’ (being the ritually purest guy around).

I will accept your statements as true, as I do not desire to belabor this discussion. My only parting comment is that the prophet Daniel within the court of Nebuchadnezzar did not have access to the ritual purity of the Temple in order to be such a ‘pleader’ or ‘voice’ for the people of Israel.

G-d’s peace

Micah

 

[Kaninchen]

I will accept your statements as true, as I do not desire to belabor this discussion. My only parting comment is that the prophet Daniel within the court of Nebuchadnezzar did not have access to the ritual purity of the Temple in order to be such a ‘pleader’ or ‘voice’ for the people of Israel.

G-d’s peace

Micah

Ritual purity wasn’t/isn’t dependent on the Temple - the regulations are in the Torah.

 

[mercytruth]

Ritual purity wasn’t/isn’t dependent on the Temple - the regulations are in the Torah.

I will concede that ritual purity is describing the purity of the High Priest during Yom Kippur. I was referring to the fact that despite Judaism’s prohibition against intermediaries (it is idolatry, and I think we both know why) Tzaddikim are allowed to intercede.

Daniel was a Tzaddik. Moses was a Tzaddik. Abraham was a Tzaddik. The unknown Teacher of Righteousness was a Tzaddik. The 36 hidden Tzaddikim are holding up the world from destruction.

chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/562222/jewish/Is-it-okay-to-ask-a-deceased-tzaddik-to-pray-on-my-behalf.htm

G-d’s peace

Micah

 

[Kaninchen]

I will concede that ritual purity is describing the purity of the High Priest during Yom Kippur. I was referring to the fact that despite Judaism’s prohibition against intermediaries (it is idolatry, and I think we both know why) Tzaddikim are allowed to intercede.

Daniel was a Tzaddik. Moses was a Tzaddik. Abraham was a Tzaddik. The unknown Teacher of Righteousness was a Tzaddik. The 36 hidden Tzaddikim are holding up the world from destruction.

chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/562222/jewish/Is-it-okay-to-ask-a-deceased-tzaddik-to-pray-on-my-behalf.htm

G-d’s peace

Micah

I’m afraid you’d have to find somebody from a Hasidic background to talk about all this sort of thing.

 

[504Katrin]

Well, rabbit would be more accurate (Kaninchen is ‘rabbit’ in German; coniglia - in my signature - is ‘rabbit [f]’ in Italian).

Hahaha. Kaninchen, you rock!

Just one thing though. Not to hijack this thread, but Kaninchen are the ones with the shorter ears. The word Rabbit in German means Hase and those are the fellas with the long ears. I haven’t found a word in English for Kaninchen yet. Kaninchen are altricial people, and Hasen are precocial people.

Kaninchen

https://natur-server.de

Hase

 

[Kaninchen]

Just one thing though. Not to hijack this thread, but Kaninchen are the ones with the shorter ears. The word Rabbit in German means Hase and those are the fellas with the long ears. I haven’t found a word in English for Kaninchen yet. Kaninchen are altricial people, and Hasen are precocial people.

Hase is ‘hare’ (to us Europeans, similar to the American ‘jackrabbit’). Kaninchen is ‘rabbit’.

As to the length of the ears of the rabbit in my signature - you’d have to take it up with the Dutch children’s book writer/artist Dick Bruna because she’s ‘Miffy’.

 

[504Katrin]

Hase is ‘hare’ (to us Europeans, similar to the American ‘jackrabbit’). Kaninchen is ‘rabbit’.

As to the length of the ears of the rabbit in my signature - you’d have to take it up with the Dutch children’s book writer/artist Dick Bruna because she’s ‘Miffy’.

well, let’s just say that we’re maybe both “Rabbitniks”

 

[mercytruth]

I’m afraid you’d have to find somebody from a Hasidic background to talk about all this sort of thing.

Thank you. I hope to learn from this blessed source, whether the concept of attaching oneself to a Tzaddik is contrary to mainline Judaism.

nachalnovea.com/breslovcenter/articles/Chayei_Nefesh_Part_I.pdf

G-d’s peace

Micah