Jews and Jesus

[Ghosty]

Well, we cannot accept John 1:1 & John 1:14. We cannot accept the very ideas of God having a Son, of God becoming/being flesh. Thus, Jesus’s claim to be the Son of God would qualify him as a heretic in our view. That he would substitute belief in himself for adherence to the Torah or pronounce any verse in the Torah as no longer valid would also qualify him as a heretic. Howzat for starters?

The position that Jews hold on Jesus is obvious and understandable, even within the writings of the New Testament (the “heresies” of Jesus are punctuated by the angry responses of the Pharisees in many places). I’m actually interested in what you think took hold of the lettered Jews such as Paul who embraced this heretical belief. Is there a discussion in any Jewish circles, current or historical, about the wave (or ripple, depending on one’s figures) of conversion to these heretical notions? I ask purely out of curiousity, as I think that the question of Jesus is answered easily within the New Testament itself, but the larger, and later, issue of Christianity growing from within Judaism is often left untouched.

 

[MaggieOH]

stillsmallvoice:

Hi all!

Gez772, you posted:

See forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=233191#post233191.

SouthCoast, you posted:

Aww, we’re not that bad! (Don’t worry, we don’t missionize, that’s not us; neither is it me.)

Be well!

ssv

SSV

I believe that if we listen to each other we can learn a lot from each other. I have had contact with a few people of the Jewish faith, and I have learned quite a bit from them.

I normally look forward to getting answers to questions concerning your faith and how it was practiced in the old days. There are a number of things that we can learn, especially about customs or traditions.

Also, there are times when I like to have the Jewish perspective on a passage of Scripture because it can be quite enlightening.

May you be blessed

MaggieOH

 

[Exporter]

Someone on this thread asked what are the “Jews FOR Jesus”.

Jay Sekulo is a great example of a former Jew who became Christian. He is full-blown Christian Protestant.

 

[romano]

gez722:

. . . . but I’d first like to find out more about what the Jewish religion teaches.

Thanks and God Bless

A very good book for learning about Jews and Judaism is:

TELUSHKIN, Rabbi Joseph - JEWISH LITERACY: The Most Important Things to Know About the Jewish Religion, Its People and Its History. (New York: 1991. ISBN 0-688-085063. Hardcover. 688 pages).

In his book Rabbi Telushkin compares and contrasts many Jewish and Christian beliefs, and you’ll probably ending up knowing more about Judaism than your Jewish brother-in-law if you read it. It’s a sort of mini-encyclopedia and very readable.

Check out the glowing reviews, from both Christians and Jews, at Amazon.

 

[reen12]

Hello.

someone asked a similar question a while ago, and I
posted this reply. I’ve copied the reply and post
it again here:

The Jewish people at the time of Jesus expected a
Messiah who would restore Israel to its former position.
So, Jesus comes, a carpenter, living in Nazareth.
“Is not this Joseph’s son?” was an understandable
question for His neighbors. Then, Jesus says:
“He who sees Me, sees the Father.” To a religious
person of His time, this was* blashpemy*, pure and
simple. One of the primary prayers of Judaism was
and is: “Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is
One.” The glory of the Jewish people was to declare
this reality over and over again, to carry forward
monotheism, in the face of the multiple “gods”
of the peoples that surrounded them.
Then, when Jesus alludes to eating His body and
drinking His blood, more horror is evoked in a
religious person, for whom the concept is allied
with pagan customs. I get the impression that there
were those who did follow Jesus…up to this point.
“This is a hard saying.”
What seems often to be lost is the understanding
that Jesus, Mary and Joseph were Jews. They
kept the Sabbath, travelled to Jerusalem, followed
the Mosaic law. I picture Joseph and Jesus strapping
on the tefflin each morning, as required by the Mosaic
law, and reciting the morning prayers.
And I profoundly thank our Jewish brothers and sisters
for their great love and adoration of God. Many devout
Jews will not even write “God”…they write G-d, out
of their immense respect for the holiness of His name.
Christians stand on the shoulders of giants in this
regard.
If a person of the Jewish faith reads this, and feels it
necessary to correct or amend what I have written,
please know that I would welcome such an effort.
Shalom,
reen12

 

[stillsmallvoice]

Hi all!

Lessee…

Ghosty, you posted:

I’m actually interested in what you think took hold of the lettered Jews such as Paul who embraced this heretical belief. Is there a discussion in any Jewish circles, current or historical, about the wave (or ripple, depending on one’s figures) of conversion to these heretical notions? I ask purely out of curiousity, as I think that the question of Jesus is answered easily within the New Testament itself, but the larger, and later, issue of Christianity growing from within Judaism is often left untouched.

Weell…

A Jew who (God forbid!) adopts another faith, is still Jewish. However, until he/she repents & renounces the other faith that they have adopted, a number of disabilities are heaped on them. Such a person is to be shunned. If a man, he cannot be counted as part of the necessary quorom for group prayer; he may not be given any synagogue or community honor; he may not teach Judaism; act as a rabbi, mohel (ritual circumciser), or shokhet (kosher butcher). Under Jewish law, he is disinherited. If such a person dies unrepentant, I believe that he/she either may not be buried in a properly-consecrated Jewish cemetery or must be buried in a special section.

Judaism is a club that once admitted into (either by birth or orthodox conversion), you can never leave. A Jew who thinks that he/she can absolve him/herself of his/her covenental obligations by, say, adopting Christianity or Islam is sorely mistaken; he/she is risking terrible consequences. In Ezekiel 20:32-33, God says:

“…and that which comes into your mind shall not be at all; in that you say: We will be as the nations, as the families of the countries, to serve wood and stone. As I live, says the Lord God, surely with a mighty hand, and with an outstretched arm, and with fury poured out, will I be king over you;”

One of my rabbis says that, the wood mentioned above refers to the Cross (i.e. Christianity), while the stone refers to the Kaaba (i.e. Islam).

I hope this doesn’t offend anyone (God forbid!), because I know it’s going to sound harsh, but…Not for nothing did Dante place not murderers, not rapists, but traitors in the lowest circle of Hell. A Jew who (God forbid!) knowingly, willingly, and under no compulsion whatsoever, abjures Judaism for another faith is a roque & a traitor who betrays his people and his God. I would pray that they repent but barring that I wish them ill. Why am I reacting with such vitriol? Well, I quoted our Sages who say that, “All Israel is responsible one for the other.” We Jews are a small people; we constitute one organic whole. When a Jew abjures his faith, it is like having a limb ripped off or an organ torn out. It is a raw wound that never heals & which hurts more than you can possibly imagine. We all suffer, we are all diminished thereby. Thus, to those who knowingly inflict this on us,I react as I have. (Do you all hate me now?)

About Paul in particular, see tinyurl.com/5ay4e & aish.com/literacy/jewishhistory/Crash_Course_in_Jewish_History_Part_41_-_From_Paul_to_Constantine.asp.

Maggie, you posted:

I believe that if we listen to each other we can learn a lot from each other.

Correct!

I have had contact with a few people of the Jewish faith, and I have learned quite a bit from them.

And I have learned much from my Catholic friends!

I normally look forward to getting answers to questions concerning your faith and how it was practiced in the old days. There are a number of things that we can learn, especially about customs or traditions.

Ask any questions that you like & I’ll do my best.

Also, there are times when I like to have the Jewish perspective on a passage of Scripture because it can be quite enlightening.

Mmm, well said!

May you be blessed

Thank you!

May you & yours be blessed as well!

reen12, I won’t argue with what you posted!

Be well!

ssv

 

[ry56]

Chickamauga:

I highly recommend this book:

http://www.salvationisfromthejews.com/title160.gif

salvationisfromthejews.com/

Salvation is from God, specifically, from Christ’s sacrifice on the cross, as the church has taught for 2000 years. Roy Schoeman needs to do more study on church teaching concerning salvation before he can be taken seriously.

 

[cestusdei]

God prepared the Jewish people for the incarnation. Mary was Jewish. Jesus was/is Jewish. Jesus even said “salvation comes from the Jews”. ry I think you are the one in need of studying Church teaching. Start with the CCC and Nostre Aetate. You accept those documents don’t you?

 

[Ghosty]

SSV: Thank you very much for the links. What I’m searching for more specifically, however, is Jewish commentary on conversion of Jews to Christianity and why it happened. I’m well aware of the views on apostacy, as they are very similar to the Church’s view. It’s very evident that they were regarded as heretics and traitors, but I guess I’m more interested in sociological commentary if you know of any. Thanks again!

Addendum: I will say that the first link pertaining to Paul, the one from the Jewish Encyclopedia, contains a lot of bias that is simply not borne out by tradition or research. It seems to imply that Paul was the founder of the Christian Church, despite the fact that all accounts put its foundation well before he came on the scene. I’m not questioning the attitude of Jews towards Paul that is presented in the article, but rather the assumption that he was somehow representative of the founding Church. On the contrary, he was considered to be an “oddball” even by them, and Peter even wrote that his work is “difficult to understand”. Paul had to fight for every scrap of legitimacy in the Christian Church, and the writings of the New Testament that are not attributed to Paul bear this out. It also relies on the writings of people who’s purpose was to discredit the writings of all Scripture, so everything said must be taken with that in mind.

 

[ry56]

cestusdei:

God prepared the Jewish people for the incarnation. Mary was Jewish. Jesus was/is Jewish. Jesus even said “salvation comes from the Jews”. ry I think you are the one in need of studying Church teaching. Start with the CCC and Nostre Aetate. You accept those documents don’t you?

Thanks for the advice, but in light of the huge body of church writings on the topic of Salvation amassed over 2000 years–Biblical scripture, writings of the Church Doctors and Saints, Papal bulls and encyclicals–Nostra Aetate, a declaration on the relation of the church to non-Christian religions, is comparatively of little significance.

 

[cestusdei]

ry/st. james,
It is from an Ecumenical Council. If you don’t accept Vatican II then you are in schism. You have nothing to teach me or the Church about Jews.

 

[Exporter]

This was the original question. “Does anyone know why the Jews don’t accept Jesus as their Savior? Is that the main difference between the Christians and Jews?”

Does anyone know why Jews do not accept Jesus as the Messiah?

All through the old testament Jesus was predicted or prophecied.

His birth, His life and His death were discussed on the O.T.

Some posters have said, yes , the Jews deny Jesus…but the qiestion was WHY. ( And after so many centuries the Jews have had a chance to rectify their situation, but they don’t…WHY?

 

[gez722]

All,

I have to thank all of you for your many replies to my question. I really did learn a lot! As Exporter mentioned, my original question was indeed “Why” don’t the Jews accept Jesus as their Messiah. I think that that question was adequately answered in some of the earlier posts.

I especially thank all of my Jewish brothers and sisters who took the time to reply to this thread. Your answers were very enlightening. As a Catholic, I obviously feel that our religion contains everything needed for salvation. However, as it was previously pointed out, Jesus, Mary and Joseph were Jews. They went to the temple and prayed the Psalms, just as I do today. Even though we differ on the acceptance of Jesus (and I realize that it is a MAJOR difference), the Jewish religion is the foundation of Catholicism. As I try to grow in my Catholic faith, I find it foolish to ignore all that is documented in the Old Testament.

Thanks Again and God Bless!

 

[stillsmallvoice]

Hi all!

Exporter, you posted:

Does anyone know why Jews do not accept Jesus as the Messiah?

All through the old testament Jesus was predicted or prophecied.

His birth, His life and His death were discussed on the O.T.

Some posters have said, yes , the Jews deny Jesus…but the qiestion was WHY.

With full respect to the beliefs of our Catholic brethren, we do not accept Jesus as the Messiah because we believe that he was neither predicted nor prophesied anywhere in the Tanakh (what we call what you call the “Old Testament”); this is why.

Howzat?

Be well!

ssv

 

[ry56]

Exporter:

This was the original question. “Does anyone know why the Jews don’t accept Jesus as their Savior? Is that the main difference between the Christians and Jews?”

Does anyone know why Jews do not accept Jesus as the Messiah?

This is a very broad question and no single answer can fully satisfy it, however, there are some key factors that should be stated.

Previous to, during, and after the time of Christ, Israel was in a grave state of apostasy. The religion of Moses and Abraham had been corrupted by the Pharisees who introduced elements of the Babylonian mystery religions which some Israelites had aquired during their exile in Babylon into their interpretations of God’s law. They claimed that Moses received secret knowledge from God *in addition to * what was recorded in Old Testament scripture and this secret knowledge, known only to themselves: the adepts, was kept as an oral tradition. The reality is that this oral tradition did not come from God but from Babylon.

The Pharisees believed that Old Testament scripture could not be understood on it’s own, but that the scriptures had a secret meaning which was unlocked by the oral tradition which they possessed. In reality this oral tradition was little more than a means of circumvention of God’s law.

Jesus testifies to this fact when he execrates the Pharisees for their tradition which makes God’s law of no effect: the implication being that the Pharisees, through their tradition, sought loopholes in God’s law, thereby circumventing it and making it of no effect.

This oral tradition of the Pharisees is the tradition of the elders which Jesus condemns throughout the Gospels. The Pharisees, having their authority publicly challenged by Jesus, saw Jesus and His correct interpretation of scripture as a threat to their power, so they plotted to have Him executed.

After Christ’s death and resurrection the Pharisees attempted damage control by suppressing the early Christian church and enforcing their tradition ever more strongly. Having rejected their Messiah, their state of apostasy only deepened, a condition which resulted in the destruction of the temple in Jerusalem and the diaspora which followed.

Getting to the specifics of the question, it is the disinformation of the Pharisees which in large part has caused Jews to not accept Jesus as the Messiah. For this reason they and their heirs should not only be seen as an enemy to Jesus and Christianity, but also as an enemy to Jews, for they keep Jews from finding their salvation in Christ.

 

[Catholic_Dude]

First of all ry56 that was so off I dont know what to say. As Catholics we hold up oral tradition as high as the scriptures! They go hand in hand. You cant go to the book store and pick up the Bible and read it and know anything. You need the correct interpretation, guarded from error and not perverted by personal opinion. The Bible is just paper and ink. The tradition gives it its power and unlocks its secrets.
For those who keep begging the question of WHY they dont accept Jesus. Here it is in plain english. It is in no way meant to divide or hurt.

Jesus is an enemy to them. He was a common man who not only denounced the Jews, but paraded around as their God and Messiah. VERY SERIOUS STUFF. He is what mohammed is to Christians except for the Jews its 100 times worse because they were the exclusive chosen ones entrusted with this “job”. To them he spoke blasphemy and made himself equal to God. In turn the Christians stole the sacred Jewish texts (i.e. the Old Testament) and made up the “New Testament”. The way they see it there is a jagged transition between the OT and NT and no connection whatsoever. The thought, teachings, prophesy, etc were not only radical, but out right blasphemy in the NT. And with the mention of all those OT references to the messiah, they see the NT writers as rewriting history to fit prophesy to reality. In their face everyday is their Tradition and Bible being abused and mocked by the Christians who claim to have destroyed the Old Covenant the Jewish life and hope! All in favor of a new one.
To them we forcefully took away God and their Bible! They can only see this as a punishment they have to endure.

That is the bottom line, truth be told.

Now as Christians the NT is what God intended. He did come in human form to bring all people to him. Christianity is the most influential and driving force in history. God is now global, not local. The Church is a way for everybody to accept the one true God and live a life of loving works and prayer with the hope of heaven. As Christ also said Christianity is the most difficult and demanding form of life that ever existed. We are held to standards like no other, to goals that can only be realized through faith and observing charitable works. The Jews werent thrown in the garbage as some might think, they are still God’s chosen and he will never abandon them. They are still blessed and guided by God who in turn makes them rich, famous, successful, smart and everlasting.
This is some touchy stuff and even stuff where there might never be eye to eye agreement. But as God fearing mortals we try our best, to look towards the final hope the best way we can.

 

[ry56]

Catholic Dude:

As Catholics we hold up oral tradition as high as the scriptures!

Church teaching is based partly upon tradition, yes. But the tradition of the Catholic church is not based in Egyptian mystery religions as is the tradition of the Pharisees.

 

[ry56]

cestusdei:

ry/st. james,
It is from an Ecumenical Council.

That is precisely why Nostra Aetate is of little significance on the matter of salvation, not to mention that nothing related to the second Vatican Council is infallibly defined dogma.

There is, however, infallibly defined church dogma relating to salvation, which is what any good Catholic should emphasize in discussion of salvation. Most notable is Pope Eugene IV’s ex cathedra pronouncement:

“The Most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews, heretics, and schismatics can never be partakers of eternal life, but that they are to go into the eternal fire ‘which was prepared for the devil and his angels,’ (Mt. 25:41) unless before death they are joined with Her; … no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved unless they abide within the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church.” Pope Eugene IV, council of Florence

 

[Maranatha]

quote=stillsmallvoice
[snip]
. I certainly don’t want to insult or offend anyone here (God forbid!) but beliefs in Jesus/Yeshua as the Messiah, the “Son of God”, an avatar of God Incarnate and/or a “person” within a triune God, and/or in the very idea that God could/did become flesh, etc. are totally, utterly, and completely incompatible with traditional, normative (i.e. orthodox) Judaism, whether of the Rabbinic or Karaite variety. (Heck, even the Samaritans would agree with us on this one!) This circle can never be squared.
[snip - blue bold mine
[/quote]

]

Why would Judaism consider the idea that ‘God could become flesh’ as incompatible with normative Judaism? Isn’t everything possible for God?

 

[ry56]

stillsmallvoice:

With full respect to the beliefs of our Catholic brethren, we do not accept Jesus as the Messiah because we believe that he was neither predicted nor prophesied anywhere in the Tanakh (what we call what you call the “Old Testament”); this is why.

Howzat?

Christ was foretold in over 400 instances in Old Testament scripture.