Jews and Jesus

[ry56]

Maranatha:

Why would Judaism consider the idea that ‘God could become flesh’ as incompatible with normative Judaism? Isn’t everything possible for God?

Isaiah 7:14 - a virgin will bear a Son named Emmanuel which means “God is with us” - Matt. 1:23 - this Son is Jesus Christ, God in the flesh.

 

[cestusdei]

ry,
So you don’t accept the authority of Vatican II or the CCC. Then you are not Catholic.

 

[Ghosty]

Isaiah 7:14 - a virgin will bear a Son named Emmanuel which means “God is with us” - Matt. 1:23 - this Son is Jesus Christ, God in the flesh.

It’s actually “young woman”, but this doesn’t take away from the argument that it is Jesus.

 

[ry56]

I accept the authority of the infallibly defined dogma of the church as having higher authority than ecumenical pronouncements as any good Catholic does.

Also, when I am interested in researching the Church position on salvation, I read church dogma that pertains to salvation as any reasonable person would.

If Nostra Aetate is the beginning and end of your understanding of the Roman Catholic faith and this works for you, enjoy it, however, demanding the same shallowness of others as a test of their “Catholicness” is unreasonable.

 

[jimmy]

ry56:

Thanks for the advice, but in light of the huge body of church writings on the topic of Salvation amassed over 2000 years–Biblical scripture, writings of the Church Doctors and Saints, Papal bulls and encyclicals–Nostra Aetate, a declaration on the relation of the church to non-Christian religions, is comparatively of little significance.

Have you read the papal bulls and all the doctors and encyclicals?

 

[Ghosty]

The Second Vatican Council did not define Dogma, but it did provide a definitive restatement of Dogma. We are therefore bound to recognize the teachings of the Church based on the lens of Vatican II, and recognize that the definitions as presented there are indeed authoritative.

 

[Traditional_Ang]

Exporter:

I don’t know if anyone answered this, but, if they did, they would have informed you, that, with the exception of some of the persecution faced by the Eartly church during her first 3 Centuries, most of the acts of violence have been perpetrated by Christians against Jews…

Exporter:

Think. During the time of Jesus who were the most influential Jews? The Sanhedrin and the Saducees were the ones who shaped Jewish thought and they were the intermediaries between the common Jew and the Romans. The Jewish Priests were the interested in protecting their high-level positions.

The top level Jewish Priests saw Jesus as a threat to their doninance.Of course the influence of the Priests sifted down to the ordinary Jew - it was that Jesus was a blasphemer. The Jewish power structure spoke and wrote to eliminate Jesus and his followers. So it is no surprise that the Anti-Christian acts followed, even unto this day!

…These Acts include the slaughter of various families and communities, and the forced relocation of their survivors into Ghettoes (these are known as “Pogroms”), Forced Conversions and the seperation of families on the basis of Baptism, the Inquisition (that’s who it was directed against), the burning down of synagogues with the worshippers inside (at least twice during the Crusades), and other acts of violence and discrimination.

This is a wound you do not want to pick at, and I advise you to leave it alone. Many people have worked very hard to repair the relationship between Jews and Christians, and, in the case of the more religious Jews, we’ve had some success.

In the name of those who’ve done that work, I beg uou to drop this bit about Jewish anti-Christian violence - Esp. since it hasn’t been true for 1,700 years. I would be far more concerned with Islamic anti-Christian violence (esp. in Islamic Countries such as Saudi Arabia, Pakistan and Sudan).

Blessings to you and your family.

Michael

 

[Traditional_Ang]

StillSmallVoice:

I must assume an openness to listen to the Catholic point of view on your part or you wouldn’t be here. If I’m wrong, you can let me know…

stillsmallvoice:

Hi all!

Exporter, you posted:

With full respect to the beliefs of our Catholic brethren, we do not accept Jesus as the Messiah because we believe that he was neither predicted nor prophesied anywhere in the Tanakh (what we call what you call the “Old Testament”); this is why.

Howzat?

Be well!

ssv

If I remember correctly, the central tenant of your faith is that G-d led you out of the land of Egypt through the parted Red Sea after the Passover spared the lives of the Hebrew first born while the Egyptian first born died.

This is a physical impossiblility that G-d did anyway.

Considering that miraculous deliverance, I would ask you to read carefully Ps 22 and the Song of the Suffering Servant from Isaiah. I believe these describe a Roman crucifixion hundreds of years before they occured.

What if those passages describe a crucifixion, because that is how G-d decided he was going to deliver all of us together?

It all comes down to the Resurrection, the central tenant of my Faith. Because, if Christ is Risen, then what he said about Himself is true, and the Crucifixion is how G-d decided to deliver us all from the bondage we were in…

In which case, the People of G-d aren’t so few anymore.

*“May the Lord bless you and keep you; may the Lord cause his face to shine upon you and be gracious to you; may the Lord lift up his countenance upon you and grant you peace.” *

Numbers 6:24-26

Shalom, Michael

 

[Traditional_Ang]

Ghosty:

It’s actually “young woman”, but this doesn’t take away from the argument that it is Jesus.

The Hebrew word could translate as either “Young woman” or Virgin". The JEWISH translanters of the Septuagent (2nd Century BC) opted for the Greek word that translates as “Virgin”. The early Church Fathers believed that choice of translation by JEWISH Scholars was Divinely Inspired.

The Septuagent really was 70 Scholars pouring over the best manuscripts available, debating and praying over just about everything they did.

That’s why many of our English translations use the word “Virgin”.

Blessings and peace.

Michael

 

[Traditional_Ang]

Maranatha:

Why would Judaism consider the idea that ‘God could become flesh’ as incompatible with normative Judaism? Isn’t everything possible for God?

Maranatha:

Think about the reaction to the Lord’s Prayer (the Our Father) in the Gospels. Jesus says that when you pray, you’re to call God, “Abba” (“Daddy” - That’s really what it means). Read their response. Read their response to when Jesus talks about the need to eat His flesh and drink His blood.

Note that when the High Priest went into the Holy of Holies (the Presence of God) he had a cowbow and a rope tied to him that went outside and was held by a crew of stallwart priests. They were to pull him out of the bell stopped ringing. If the bell stopped ringing, it meant that the High Priest had died!

You’ll note that with few exceptions, humans weren’t supposed to have an intimate relationship with “G-d”. This is completely different from what we’re taught.

Blessings to you, and may the Lord Come soon!

Michael

 

[Traditional_Ang]

RY56:

The following borders on anti-Semitism, and, unless you can show cites from legitimate sources that demonstrate this to be a fact, is a violation of the 9th Commandment - “Thou shalt not bear false witness against they neighbor”. Even if you can, it’s probably a violation of our own rules against Gossip.

I see nothing here that’s potentially edifying, and quite a bit of misinformation.

Blessings, Peace and Good Night. Michael

ry56:

This is a very broad question and no single answer can fully satisfy it, however, there are some key factors that should be stated.

Previous to, during, and after the time of Christ, Israel was in a grave state of apostasy. The religion of Moses and Abraham had been corrupted by the Pharisees who introduced elements of the Babylonian mystery religions which some Israelites had aquired during their exile in Babylon into their interpretations of God’s law. They claimed that Moses received secret knowledge from God *in addition to * what was recorded in Old Testament scripture and this secret knowledge, known only to themselves: the adepts, was kept as an oral tradition. The reality is that this oral tradition did not come from God but from Babylon.

The Pharisees believed that Old Testament scripture could not be understood on it’s own, but that the scriptures had a secret meaning which was unlocked by the oral tradition which they possessed. In reality this oral tradition was little more than a means of circumvention of God’s law.

Jesus testifies to this fact when he execrates the Pharisees for their tradition which makes God’s law of no effect: the implication being that the Pharisees, through their tradition, sought loopholes in God’s law, thereby circumventing it and making it of no effect.

This oral tradition of the Pharisees is the tradition of the elders which Jesus condemns throughout the Gospels. The Pharisees, having their authority publicly challenged by Jesus, saw Jesus and His correct interpretation of scripture as a threat to their power, so they plotted to have Him executed.

After Christ’s death and resurrection the Pharisees attempted damage control by suppressing the early Christian church and enforcing their tradition ever more strongly. Having rejected their Messiah, their state of apostasy only deepened, a condition which resulted in the destruction of the temple in Jerusalem and the diaspora which followed.

Getting to the specifics of the question, it is the disinformation of the Pharisees which in large part has caused Jews to not accept Jesus as the Messiah. For this reason they and their heirs should not only be seen as an enemy to Jesus and Christianity, but also as an enemy to Jews, for they keep Jews from finding their salvation in Christ.

 

[Ozzie]

Traditional Ang:

RY56:

The following borders on anti-Semitism, and, unless you can show cites from legitimate sources that demonstrate this to be a fact, is a violation of the 9th Commandment - “Thou shalt not bear false witness against they neighbor”. Even if you can, it’s probably a violation of our own rules against Gossip.

I see nothing here that’s potentially edifying, and quite a bit of misinformation.

Blessings, Peace and Good Night. Michael

I agree with you, but that antisemitic sentiment has been propagated in both the Western and Eastern Churches for centuries and followed into Protestant churches, as well. For instance:

St. Augustine (Oratio Adversus Judaeos):

The Jews murdered Christ in order not to lose face … They are undoubtedly our enemies." “Long before the coming of the Saviour, Judaism had progrssively become corrupt … after the revelation of Christ, it fell completely under Satan’s inspiration; formerly the chosen children of God, they became the sons of the devil.” “The true image of the Hebrew is Judas Iscariot, who sells the Lord for silver. The Jew cannot understand the Scriptures and forever will
bear the guilt for the death of Jesus.”

Such a blanket statement is pitiful. Didn’t Augustine realize that it was HIS sins that put Christ on the cross??? Even the sin of antisemitism?

ISA 53:5 “But He was pierced through for our transgressions, He was crushed for our iniquities; The chastening for our well-being fell upon Him, And by His scourging we are healed.”

ISA 53:10 “But the Lord was pleased To crush Him, putting Him to grief; If He would render Himself as a guilt offering, He will see His offspring, He will prolong His days, And the good pleasure of the Lord will prosper in His hand.”

“The Lord was peased to crush Him…” Based on Augustine’s logic, would the Lord also be our enemy?

 

[cestusdei]

ry,
I notice again that you do not affirm an ecumencal council. Accepting the decrees of an ecumenical council is a dogma. It is not an option for you to ignore the magisterium and then claim to be Catholic.

 

[stillsmallvoice]

Hi all!

Maranatha, you posted:

Why would Judaism consider the idea that 'God could

become flesh’ as incompatible with normative Judaism? Isn’t everything possible for God?

Yes, everything is possible for God (of course!) but we believe that the Tanakh (again, that’s what we call what Christians call the “Old Testament”) absolutely rules this idea out. While everything may be possible (like George Carlin’s old gag about himself as a youngster asking a priest if, “God is all-powerful, can He make a rock so big that He Himself can’t lift it?”; you’re doomed however you answer the question) not everything is actual. We believe that the Tanakh absolutely rejects the actuality of God becoming flesh.

ry56, you posted:

Christ was foretold in over 400 instances in Old Testament scripture.

We believe that he was foretold in precisely 0 instances (although, of course, we acknowledge & respect our Christian brothers’ and sisters’ beliefs to the contrary).

Regarding our views on the translation of the term in question in Isaiah 7:14, see jewsforjudaism.org/web/faq/faq133.html, jewsforjudaism.org/web/faq/faq007.html & outreachjudaism.org/virgin.html for starters.

Traditional Ang/Michael, I’m glad to make your cyberacquaintance!

You posted:

The Septuagent really was 70 Scholars pouring over the best manuscripts available, debating and praying over just about everything they did.

Actually, our tradition is that each of the 70 scholars summoned by Ptolemy II worked separately! See the section entitlec “Greek Translation” at aish.com/literacy/mitzvahs/The_Tenth_of_Tevet.asp. (See also forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=364512&highlight=Tevet#post364512.)

You also posted:

You’ll note that with few exceptions, humans weren’t supposed to have an intimate relationship with “G-d”.

No, no, with all due respect, I would politely submit that you have been misinformed. We believe that each of us might/should have as intimate a personal relationship with God as possible. This is normative Jewish belief & always has been. The High Priest (only) was to go in there once a year, on Yom Kippur (only) and perform certain rites specified in Leviticus by God Himself. This in no way implies that God’s presence was certainly not limited or confined to the the Holy of Holies, not at all!

I must assume an openness to listen to the Catholic point of view on your part or you wouldn’t be here. If I’m wrong, you can let me know…

You’re quite correct!

If I remember correctly, the central tenant of your faith is that G-d led you out of the land of Egypt through the parted Red Sea after the Passover spared the lives of the Hebrew first born while the Egyptian first born died.

It is a tenet of our faith, though not the central one. Our very great medieval sage, Moses Maimonedes (tinyurl.com/6xatv; St. Thomas Aquinas referred to him as “Rabbi Moses”) wrote 13 articles of belief for Judaism (ou.org/torah/rambam.htm).

(cont.)

 

[stillsmallvoice]

(cont.)

This is a physical impossiblility that G-d did anyway.
You lost me.

I believe these describe a Roman crucifixion hundreds of years before they occured.

I believe they describe no such thing. I think that we will have to file very many things under the heading of “agree to disagree” while respecting each other’s beliefs.

Ry56, your discourse on the Pharisees doesn’t jibe at all with our views & our beliefs. This is not how we interpret our history. I refer you back to my February 3 post (#10 on this thread) above. About what the Gospels say about the Pharisees, see tinyurl.com/3q3nq. You posted:

They claimed that Moses received secret knowledge from God *in addition to *

what was recorded in Old Testament scripture and this secret knowledge, known only to themselves: the adepts, was kept as an oral tradition. The reality is that this oral tradition did not come from God but from Babylon.

The Pharisees believed that Old Testament scripture could not be understood on it’s own, but that the scriptures had a secret meaning which was unlocked by the oral tradition which they possessed. In reality this oral tradition was little more than a means of circumvention of God’s law.

With all due respect, this is absolutely not true. Our oral traditions & the Oral Torah are not “secret” but are open to all who wish to come & study!

See :

In addition to the written scriptures we have an “Oral Torah,” a tradition explaining what the above scriptures mean and how to interpret them and apply the Laws. Orthodox Jews believe God taught the Oral Torah to Moses, and he taught it to others, down to the present day. This tradition was maintained in oral form only until about the 2d century C.E., when the oral law was compiled and written down in a document called the Mishnah.

Over the next few centuries, additional commentaries elaborating on the Mishnah were written down in Jerusalem and Babylon. These additional commentaries are known as the Gemara. The Gemara and the Mishnah together are known as the Talmud. This was completed in the 5th century C.E.

There are actually two Talmuds: the Jerusalem Talmud and the Babylonian Talmud. The Babylonian one is more comprehensive, and is the one most people mean when they refer to The Talmud. There have been additional commentaries on the Talmud by such noted Jewish scholars as Rashi and Rambam.

We believe in an unbroken chain of tradition going all the way back to Moses our Teacher that is at the heart of our belief in an Oral Torah as well. We believe that God gave both a Written and an Oral Torah to Moses. As per the above excerpt, the Talmud is a major codification of the Oral Torah. Through these (now written down) oral traditions, we understand how to understand the text of the Written Torah. (Ferinstance, the Oral Torah tells us that the adage “an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth, etc.,” was never meant to be taken literally but instead means that someone who gouges out another’s eye must compensate him monetarily for the loss of his eye. The Oral Torah tells us about the kosher method of slaughtering animals, referred to in passing in Deuteronomy 12:21. Etc. etc. See and for a good intro on this very key Jewish concept.)

The Pharisees, having their authority publicly challenged by Jesus, saw Jesus and His correct interpretation of scripture as a threat to their power, so they plotted to have Him executed.

Incorrect. The Sanhedrin at the time was dominated by Sadducee heretics (of whom Caiaphas was one).

(cont.)

 

[stillsmallvoice]

(cont.)

Having rejected their Messiah, their state of apostasy only deepened, a condition which resulted in the destruction of the temple in Jerusalem and the diaspora which followed.

This does not jibe with our own views on why the 2nd Temple was destroyed (see forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=435319&highlight=gratuitous#post435319).

it is the disinformation of the Pharisees which in large part has caused Jews to not accept Jesus as the Messiah.

Not so. We do not accept Jesus as the Messiah because we do not believe that he was the Messiah. Our Sages are not brainwashing us. Any attempt to insinuate that they are is self-serving rationalization (and downright ludicrous). We are our Sages & they are us.

Be well!

ssv

 

[Exporter]

I say, well, stillsmallvoice these past few posts of your have told everyone just what you belive about Jesus. Zero mention of Jesus in the Old Testament and that He is NOT the Messiah… And your sages are you and you are the sages.

From the manner in which you write it is to be belived that you believe what you wrote. So what’s left to say?

 

[Traditional_Ang]

Exporter:

I say, well, stillsmallvoice these past few posts of your have told everyone just what you belive about Jesus. Zero mention of Jesus in the Old Testament and that He is NOT the Messiah… And your sages are you and you are the sages.

From the manner in which you write it is to be believed that you believe what you wrote. So what’s left to say?

Exporter:

That he’s a believing Orthodox Jew just like the one who dragged me the door of the Church some 16 months ago, that he is what he sayhe is and believes what he says he believes.

You may find that he has more faith in the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob than many of us in the Lord Jesus Christ.

The Apostles were all such as our guest, so you want to ask, “What caused them to believe in Jesus?” “What caused them to leave those objections behind?” The same questions need to be asked of every Jewish convert to our Faith.

Blessings to you on this Ash Wednesday.

Michael

 

[mava]

gez722:

Does anyone know why the Jews don’t accept Jesus as their Savior? Is that the main difference between the Christians and Jews? As I learn more about my Catholic faith, it appears that Catholicism has it’s roots in Judaism. I have a Jewish brother-in-law and I’d like to someday talk to him about Catholicism, but I’d first like to find out more about what the Jewish religion teaches.

Thanks and God Bless

May I suggest you read the book “Salvation if fronm the Jews” written by Roy Schoeman.Mr. Schoeman grew up studying Judaism under the most prominent Rabbis in American Judiasm. After receiving several Degrees from harvard Business School, he taught at Harvard. His unexpected conversion to Catholcism led to a dramatic refocus of his activities. He currently hosts a Catholic TV show, studies and writes on religious topics.

---

This book traces the role of Judaism and the Jewish people in God’s plan for the salvation of mankind, from Abraham through the second coming, as revealed by the Catholic faith and by a thoughtful examination of history… It will give both Jews and Christians a deeper understanding of Judiasm, both as a religion in itself and as a central component of salvation history.
quote by Rhonda Chervin, Ph.D., Hebrew-Catholic

Also look for books by Roslyn Moss, also a Hebrew Catholic and an Apologist for Catholic Answer. Catholic Answers can be found at www.catholic.com

 

[Ghosty]

We believe that the Tanakh absolutely rejects the actuality of God becoming flesh.

SSV: This has always fascinated me. Would be willing to explain how it rejects this in the Jewish view?

I think this all boils down to the fact that Jews and Christians actually don’t have to do a lot of “twisting” of Scripture to come up with their respective viewpoints. In my opinion, both sides have a very legitimate point of view, with no need for any wool being pulled over anyone’s eyes. Unfortunately there have been accusations on BOTH sides that this has occured (in this very thread, no less), and it has been for the worst. It’s high time that we recognized that both sides respect God and the Messiah, and though one side obviously has it “wrong”, it has come innocently and without malice. Historically, however, it has been Jews who have been more open to this reality than Christians, for reasons I don’t understand. We Catholics should be comfortable enough in our faith to accept the truth of our interpretations without needing to ascribe any kind untowards behavior on the part of those in other faiths. To put it in a way I’m sure SSV and all Orthodox Jews could recognize, respect, and appreciate, when you’re right you don’t have to beat others over the head with how wrong they are.

Many people know that I came to the Church, and to faith in general, because of Orthodox Judaism. The faith of Orthodox Jews is most definately supernatural in character, and must be honored. Of course I differ with Jews on the matter of Jesus as the Messiah, but I am able to differ precisely because of what I learned while studying Judaism, and espescially because of devout Orthodox Jews like SSV who are willing to stand firmly in their faith while not denigrating alternate respectful interpretations. Another thing to remember, and I hope SSV and other Jews take this in the respectful and loving manner it’s intended and not as any kind of slight on their own ancient understandings, Jews have shown themselves time and time again more that willing to die for their faith in the Messiah. As a Catholic, as someone who believes adamantly that Jesus is indeed the Christ, I can only credit their faith as true faith in Jesus. As a person who’s faith is hopefully as unshakable as the Orthodox Jews, I can say with the purest hope that all things will be sorted out when the Messiah comes, or returns, and such minor details will be washed away by the rejoicing we will share in the fact that we have both remained absolutely faithful to God and the promise of the Messiah, one of the fundamental, if not the fundamental, characteristics of both our faiths.

How can we look at those Jews who walked into the gas chambers singing about their absolute faith in the coming Messiah and not see the truest Christian spirit? How can we not envy their faith in the Messiah, whom they’ve not even seen, when so many Christians show so little faith in the Messiah they claim to personally know? This isn’t meant in anyway to say that Jews are “too ignorant” to know who they’re dying for, merely highlighting the tenet of my faith that Jesus is indeed the Messiah.

Of course I wish that all Jews would embrace Jesus, but only because I believe that He is the Messiah they’ve longed for so faithfully, and through so much hardship. I want it because I believe it is the time to rejoice, the same way I would want all of my friends and family who long for a feast to come to a beautiful Thanksgiving dinner. Furthermore, I wish they could embrace Jesus as Jews, without losing any of their unique cultural or spiritual character, just as I believe the Apostles did.

This is just my desire, however, and I temper it with the knowledge that the same faithfulness and adamance that prevents them from doing so today is the very reason we have been graced with the Messiah in the first place. I believe that, for the time being, we can labor in our faiths without putting down the other. We both love not only God, but also the very real Messiah, what other faiths can say the same? From a very Catholic point of view, I see no reason to act harshly towards the only other people I see willing to die for Christ. If people like SSV can respect our faith in the Messiah, even while holding fast to their belief that we’ve misidentified Him, why can’t we do the same?

Cherish our similarities, respect our differences, and have a bottle of wine ready to celebrate when Messiah comes/returns and renders such distinctions meaningless. In the meantime, we must honor our faith and work towards God’s ends.

That turned into a much longer post than I intended, and I hope I didn’t offend anyone, most espescially our Jewish friends who have to wade through so much intentional spite on these forums already, but I guess it’s something that I had to get off my chest