Jews and the Divinity of Christ

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De_Maria:
Political correctness is ruining this country. Apparently, if someone disagrees with your views, they are to be silenced and accused of all sorts of bias.
Quite what that had to do with what I wrote, I can’t imagine but that was hardly the point, was it?
Then what was your point?
Meanwhile, I’ve only ever ‘reported’ two people in 12 years on CAF, both were a long time ago and one of them was myself.
I didn’t accuse you. But your post came up on my first visit back and it seemed providential that you were expressing the same politically correct sentiments that I wanted to address.
 
Hey, I was recently suspended for telling somebody that I missed the old ‘ignore’ feature.

The place is what it is.
 
I didn’t accuse you. But your post came up on my first visit back and it seemed providential that you were expressing the same politically correct sentiments that I wanted to address.
I think our definitions of ‘politically correct’ are wildly different.
 
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De_Maria:
I didn’t accuse you. But your post came up on my first visit back and it seemed providential that you were expressing the same politically correct sentiments that I wanted to address.
I think our definitions of ‘politically correct’ are wildly different.
Earlier you seemed to imply that I misunderstood your post. Can you explain in what way?
 
I was talking about the futility of certain approaches to dialogue - of course we can all indulge in “Oh, yes it is!/Oh, no it isn’t” until everybody gets bored, angry, suspended, whatever.

This is especially true in situations where one side sees the discussion as being about ‘scripture/reportage’ and the other as ‘ancient fiction’ and the discussion as being about a character in a book.

All we’ll learn from the process is that some people on both sides get upset, while others don’t care.
 
@De_Maria

The story of the blind man and the elephant may be constructive in explaining why there are different religions at all, let alone why Jews aren’t Christian.
Hm? Well, since the Jews aren’t blind, I’m missing the analogy. Unless you’re making a reference to the Pauline reference about the “blindness”.

As I mentioned to someone before, one of the things that drew me back to Christianity is the recognition that Jesus Christ’s Teachings revolutionized (as in "turned the world upside down) human thinking. I can’t believe that modern Jews have missed the implications of this man coming into the world in the fullness of time and achieving all that He did, BY DYING. I, at least, recognize the hand of God in that.
 
I was talking about the futility …
Ok. Read your post. I just wanted to focus on this word, “futility”. I don’t see it as futility. Scripture says:

Proverbs 27:17 As iron sharpens iron,
so one person sharpens another.

I thought the whole purpose of these forums was to talk about things.
If the whole process is futile, then close the forums down. At least in the Apologetics section, people should be permitted to broach difficult subjects without being afraid of saying every little thing that might hurt someone’s feelings.
 
Ok. Read your post. I just wanted to focus on this word, “futility”. I don’t see it as futility.
Oh, lots of people see this kind of argument as non-futile, the point is, however, that discussions like this tend to break down into what we Brits might call a ‘pantomime debate’ (Oh, yes it is/Oh, no it isn’t) for the reasons I’ve mentioned - and we never get near the considerable philosophical etc differences between the two religions.
 
I can state what I learned growing up Jewish as to why we didn’t accept the view that Jesus was God.

Scripture was closed to any writings not in Hebrew.
God can not become a man and a man cannot be or become God.
God is unchanging and in order to come to earth as a man would require God to change.
Of those Jews looking forward to a Messiah, the Messiah would be a human man, not divine.
Jesus’s death was upon a tree, condemned in Deuteronomy.
God is one and only one.

These are the arguments as far as I remember them. There may have been more. I also want to point out that we never discussed Jesus or Christianity until post confirmation classes (15 yr old). Never in regular Sabbath school. Most Jewish youth never learned about Christianity until their late teens at all except what they learned outside of Shul (Synagogue). Things may be different now, however.
 
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De_Maria:
Ok. Read your post. I just wanted to focus on this word, “futility”. I don’t see it as futility.
Oh, lots of people see this kind of argument as non-futile, the point is, however, that discussions like this tend to break down into what we Brits might call a ‘pantomime debate’ (Oh, yes it is/Oh, no it isn’t) for the reasons I’ve mentioned - and we never get near the considerable philosophical etc differences between the two religions.
I’m sure. But can’t we say the same about any subject? I mean, I’ve heard arguments amongst people who say that toilet paper should only roll out in one direction. Or even about subjects which are normally considered safe. Like the weather. Have you engaged anyone in a global warming discussion recently? Is there any subject that you’re aware of where there will be no danger of degradation to the point of imbecility?

I’m not aware of any. But having said that, there are subjects which are more likely to create heat. Like religion and politics. But should that make them off liimits?
 
I can state what I learned growing up Jewish as to why we didn’t accept the view that Jesus was God.

Scripture was closed to any writings not in Hebrew…
God is one and only one.

These are the arguments as far as I remember them. There may have been more.
All understandable reasons.
I also want to point out that we never discussed Jesus or Christianity until post confirmation classes (15 yr old).
Hm? Didn’t know you had that. I thought it was a Catholic thing.
Never in regular Sabbath school. Most Jewish youth never learned about Christianity until their late teens at all except what they learned outside of Shul (Synagogue). Things may be different now, however.
That’s more what I’m trying to delve into rather than strict religious teaching.

I don’t know what it’s like for you, but in the US, as an atheist, when I looked around, the world seemed possessed by Christianity. I know today, a lot of religious people look around and see a heathen world. But when I was atheist, I saw a world full of Christians. And when I came back to being a believer in God, I had to consider seriously this guy with whom the world seemed obsessed.

So, I guess I’m wondering why modern Jews don’t seem to take Him seriously? Of course, I don’t have any Jewish friends anymore. I used to, but, back then I was atheist and I wasn’t interested in the subject.
 
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When I was Jewish, the world too seemed full of Christians and I never really gave it a second thought. Jews have always been in the minority.

The first time I really examined Christianity was after I left Judaism. Possibly due to religious indoctrination, I was never able to completely buy it and I really tried. I did learn quite a bit, however.
 
Correctomundo.
Honestly conversations about Judaism do tend to inevitably start edging down the ‘come to Jesus’ road at some point and from there fall apart.
I’m assuming you’re both Jewish. And if that assumption is correct. And if you don’t want people to ask you to “come to Jesus”. Why would you hang out in a “come to Jesus” parlour?

You do know that this forum is considered one of the premier Catholic Apologetics websites, right?

### Catholic Answers - Wikipedia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_Answers


Catholic Answers , based in El Cajon, California, is the largest lay-run apostolate of Roman Catholic apologetics and evangelization in the United States.
 
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@De_Maria

It’s a parable. It’s an explanation for why people view facts differently. I’m not accusing anyone of blindness, just simply pointing out that no one, but God knows everything. A recognition of one’s own ignorance about any subject that lead to a desire to increase one’s knowledge. One who thinks they already have it all figured out won’t go seeking out new information.


Jewish people are just Jewish people, they’re not evil or misguided, they’re just experience reality differently than you. God created everything, including all the philosophies and religions out there and the capacity for people to choose one over the other or mix them up into something new.

We don’t tell God what to think, he just does and we have to live with whatever that is.
 
80% of humans currently alive reject Christianity. And until Jesus, all human who had ever lived were not Christian.

The options aren’t limited to what is directly in front of you.
 
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Wesrock:
the persons of the Trinity have one divine intellect.
If they have the same intellect, how can they be distinct?
It is a great mystery, but when the 2nd Person of the Divine Trinity deigned to become man, He did not keep all the rights due to His divine station.

Philippians 2:7 Rather, he emptied himself,
taking the form of a slave,
coming in human likeness
and found human in appearance,

It shouldn’t be that shocking. Once He became man, there were certain things He permitted inside of that body which were not even necessary for His Divine nature. A beating heart, blood flow, etc. etc.
No. Jesus’ natures were in harmony as one person.
Harmony? But the human nature did not know the day or the hour and the Divine Nature did know the day or the hour ?
In either case, whether He knew and would not divulge it. Or whether He did not know and therefore could not divulge it, His human nature was still in harmony with the Divine Will. The key to understanding this, is obedience.
 
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@De_Maria

It’s a parable. It’s an explanation for why people view facts differently.
I didn’t mean to sound unfamiliar with the parable.
I’m not accusing anyone of blindness, just simply pointing out that no one, but God knows everything. A recognition of one’s own ignorance about any subject that lead to a desire to increase one’s knowledge. One who thinks they already have it all figured out won’t go seeking out new information.
Some people who think they have it all figured out, like to share that information. That’s what I’m looking for.
Jewish people are just Jewish people, they’re not evil or misguided,
I didn’t say they were. Did anyone here say that about the Jews? If not, I’m curious why it would even occur to you?
they’re just experience reality differently than you.
We can say that about every human being on the planet. Including other Catholics.
God created everything, including all the philosophies and religions out there and the capacity for people to choose one over the other or mix them up into something new.

We don’t tell God what to think, he just does and we have to live with whatever that is.
I’m not sure what the point of that is, unless you’re still saying it’s futile to exchange this sort of information.
 
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