Jews as the Chosen people?

[Zhenia]

According to the sources I read, the passage is a forgery. I did not make this up. And even if it were not a forgery, no (Hasidic) Orthodox Jew of the past or present who studied the Zohar, would interpret such a passage as justification for the belief in a Triune G-d. As to the Tzadik, I assume you’re making a case in Judaism for vicarious atonement through suffering and death and likening this to the suffering and death of Jesus. In fact, this atonement process does exist in Judaism; however, it is generally considered a complement to the atonement of the “ordinary” individual who is not as holy as the Tzadik. In other words, the Tzadik’s participation may tip the balance in favor of the individual, but it is preferable that the Jew–or Gentile–atone for his own sins. As in the previous example of animal blood sacrifice, it is not considered the most effective means of atonement. Further, the suffering of the Tzadik does not require his own death. There is also an example of this in the Tanakh: Ezekiel. His suffering is not followed by death and is periodic in manner, not constant. Finally, the Tzadik is regarded as part of the collective group of individuals (and actually regarded as holier mainly in comparison to them). Although more righteous, he is not free of sin since he is held to a higher standard than the ordinary person. His suffering is therefore not only on behalf of others but also due to his own higher nature.

I don’t know what to tell you. I gave you the source, I even gave you the ISBN number. I copied it directly out of the 5 volume English translation Zohar which I own, published by a very reputable Jewish publishing company.

If you still choose to believe the source who evidently lied to you, I am at a loss as to what to say. If you’re not afraid of the truth, and don’t want to but the 5 volume set, why not go to a Jewish library that has the Soncino Zohar and see it for yourself?

As I said earlier, I was raised as a frum Yid (religious…Orthodox Jew). I grew up around these seforim, and later on, bought my own copies. I’ve also studied the Talmud Bavli (Babylonian Talmud), which I still also own a complete set of. I don’t need to go to others for direct quotes or info: I can look it up myself in my own seforim.

As for what the Ramchal says in Derekh Hashem, maybe you should just read it. The section I referred it is pages 123-125. You can buy all of these classic Jewish works from any Jewish bookstore, or even order them on Amazon.

As to why no Chasidic sages would interpret it to mean that Jesus atoned for sin? Well, of course not. St Paul even said that a veil has been placed over the eyes and hearts of most (not all) Jews to the truth, so that the fullness of the Gentiles can come to faith. Once they do, the veil will be removed. In the meantime, there is a remnant of Jews who believe.

I know you said that you were told that the passage in the Zohar doesn’t exist, when clearly, it does. Do you know what I was told when I was younger? I was told by Jewish antimissionaries that the early Christians deliberately distorted the Jewish Scriptures to make them sound more like Jesus…only later did I learn, through my own research, that the reverse was actually true. The rabbis at the time of Christ began to suppress the LXX (the Septuagint) Jewish Bible, because the prophecies sounded too much like Jesus! This was a Jewish Bible that had been used exclusively by all Jews for 300 yrs before Christ, and which even the Talmud says was a divinely inspired translation! Why would they suddenly decide to suppress it and come out with the Masoretic text? Because the Masoretic RETRANSLATED those passages (notably Is 7:14) to sound LESS like Jesus. MANY of the changes made in 2nd Temple period Judaism were made as a reaction against Christianity. This is what HISTORIANS say.

You know, meltzerboy, I was lied to, too. The difference is, when I realized that, I chose to walk away from those who lied to me and accept the Truth. That Truth, for me, is Jesus Christ.

The Judaism of modern times (since the destruction of the Second Temple) was largely reworked and reinvented to accomodate a changed situation with an emergent new faith (Christianity) that was proving to be a genuine threat to the rabbis. I never realized this until I began studying in depth, and the amazing thing is, no Christian literature or missionary works convinced me.

I became a believer in Jesus Christ as a result of things I studied and read IN ANCIENT JEWISH WRITINGS, such as the LXX (the original Jewish Bible), the Zohar and many others, including the Talmud. No Christian had a thing to do with it, which even I find amazing. God will use whatever He is able, to show someone the Truth.

Jesus Christ was the final message to our people. Some of us listened to the message, others refuse to. The fact that the curtain in front of the Aron in the Bais haMikdash was torn in two by invisible hands as Christ was crucified, combined with His words, “It is finished”, is a very definite message to everyone, but esp. to Am Yisrael.

Jesus Christ, today, holds out His hand to you to forgiveness and salvation. He is the final atonement for our sins. There will not be any other. It was just as difficult for me to accept this fact as it would be for you, but that does not change the reality of it.

 

[Hail_Linus]

I was hoping to enter the Catholic faith (although I have had a few disheartening moments to date ), but I am confused about several points.
I know that there are a number of Christian organisations in America in particular that revere Jews as the Chosen people even though these Christians believe that Jesus Christ was the son of God whereas Jews from what I understand, do not believe he was the Messiah. How does that work?

Certain Christian groups have a belief that the second coming of Jesus will occur after the Jews build the third temple (or if you prefer rebuild the destroyed second temple). I think it might have something to do with those rapture stories they are always talking about.

Catholics believe Jesus himself is the third temple.

Secondly is it part of the Catholic faith to believe that Jewish people are the Chosen people?

As Jesus himself said “Salvation is from the Jews.” They were and still are the Chosen people. Any reference to Christians be chosen is really comparing apples to oranges.

Thirdly, I still find it perplexing that Jesus was a Jew but, is for the most part worshipped by non Jews. Will there be a place in heaven for those who have renounced him?

At first Christians were only Jews. In fact there are only two books in the New Testament written by a gentile; Gospel of Luke and Acts.

According to Jesus himself, blasphemy against him will be forgiven. Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven in the next life. Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is when the Holy Spirit makes you realize the truth of Christianity.

 

[meltzerboy]

I don’t know what to tell you. I gave you the source, I even gave you the ISBN number. I copied it directly out of the 5 volume English translation Zohar which I own, published by a very reputable Jewish publishing company.

If you still choose to believe the source who evidently lied to you, I am at a loss as to what to say. If you’re not afraid of the truth, and don’t want to but the 5 volume set, why not go to a Jewish library that has the Soncino Zohar and see it for yourself?

As I said earlier, I was raised as a frum Yid (religious…Orthodox Jew). I grew up around these seforim, and later on, bought my own copies. I’ve also studied the Talmud Bavli (Babylonian Talmud), which I still also own a complete set of. I don’t need to go to others for direct quotes or info: I can look it up myself in my own seforim.

As for what the Ramchal says in Derekh Hashem, maybe you should just read it. The section I referred it is pages 123-125. You can buy all of these classic Jewish works from any Jewish bookstore, or even order them on Amazon.

As to why no Chasidic sages would interpret it to mean that Jesus atoned for sin? Well, of course not. St Paul even said that a veil has been placed over the eyes and hearts of most (not all) Jews to the truth, so that the fullness of the Gentiles can come to faith. Once they do, the veil will be removed. In the meantime, there is a remnant of Jews who believe.

I know you said that you were told that the passage in the Zohar doesn’t exist, when clearly, it does. Do you know what I was told when I was younger? I was told by Jewish antimissionaries that the early Christians deliberately distorted the Jewish Scriptures to make them sound more like Jesus…only later did I learn, through my own research, that the reverse was actually true. The rabbis at the time of Christ began to suppress the LXX (the Septuagint) Jewish Bible, because the prophecies sounded too much like Jesus! This was a Jewish Bible that had been used exclusively by all Jews for 300 yrs before Christ, and which even the Talmud says was a divinely inspired translation! Why would they suddenly decide to suppress it and come out with the Masoretic text? Because the Masoretic RETRANSLATED those passages (notably Is 7:14) to sound LESS like Jesus. MANY of the changes made in 2nd Temple period Judaism were made as a reaction against Christianity. This is what HISTORIANS say.

You know, meltzerboy, I was lied to, too. The difference is, when I realized that, I chose to walk away from those who lied to me and accept the Truth. That Truth, for me, is Jesus Christ.

The Judaism of modern times (since the destruction of the Second Temple) was largely reworked and reinvented to accomodate a changed situation with an emergent new faith (Christianity) that was proving to be a genuine threat to the rabbis. I never realized this until I began studying in depth, and the amazing thing is, no Christian literature or missionary works convinced me.

I became a believer in Jesus Christ as a result of things I studied and read IN ANCIENT JEWISH WRITINGS, such as the LXX (the original Jewish Bible), the Zohar and many others, including the Talmud. No Christian had a thing to do with it, which even I find amazing. God will use whatever He is able, to show someone the Truth.

Jesus Christ was the final message to our people. Some of us listened to the message, others refuse to. The fact that the curtain in front of the Aron in the Bais haMikdash was torn in two by invisible hands as Christ was crucified, combined with His words, “It is finished”, is a very definite message to everyone, but esp. to Am Yisrael.

Jesus Christ, today, holds out His hand to you to forgiveness and salvation. He is the final atonement for our sins. There will not be any other. It was just as difficult for me to accept this fact as it would be for you, but that does not change the reality of it.

Zhenia, I’m very happy that you’ve found what appears to be the Truth for you. However, I’ve heard all the arguments you mention countless times before, and I’ve also done my own fair share of personal study. (By the way, I was not raised in an Orthodox Jewish home: I’m actually a Reform Jew.) I’ve come to my own sense of the Truth (which, in certain ways, differs from the Orthodox view) and believe that, while Christianity offers the world many wonderful traditions of its own–some of which derive from Judaism–and a great deal of moral teachings which I admire and appreciate learning more about, my own faith is more than gratifying in providing me with an inner peace of mind and feeling of joy. In short, I have no intention of leaving Judaism.

I would be curious regarding your reaction to my comments about the Tzadik atonement topic. Also, do you believe in the theory that Jesus is both the King Messiah and the Priest Messiah and that in his Second Coming he will fulfill the prophecies that were not completed the first time, in the role of King? Or do you think Jesus did fulfill ALL the prophecies the first time, including that of world peace, and that the Second Coming will be for another purpose? Further, can you find any evidence for the Second Coming in the Hebrew Bible; perhaps the Masoretic Text suppressed those passages? And are you familiar with the premonitions of Moses, which he addressed to the Jewish people, with regard to following the Torah commandments–which he also claimed were not so difficult to fulfill–even if told it was no longer necessary to do so by a prophet from a future time? These questions are for the purpose of my edification and not meant in spirit or tone as a hostile challenge to you or Christian belief. If anyone else on the Forum would like to respond, I would also appreciate that. However, I don’t wish to derail the topic of the thread too much, so perhaps a PM would be just as good.

 

[Zhenia]

meltzerboy, I’m very familiar with not only your sentiments but also your arguments. You see, during my teen years I was briefly involved with a Jewish antimissionary organization in my city, which worked to keep Jews from becoming Christians (though we mostly worked against the group, Jews for Jesus).

However, the more I studied traditional Jewish seforim and teachings, the more Jesus started jumping out at me (figuratively speaking!)

The Zohar (Jewish mystical work) speaks of “Messiah ben Joseph” and “Messiah Ben David”…Messiah ben Joseph was to be the Messiah who would die on behalf of the Jewish people, and Messiah ben David would come later, who would lead the Jewish people into the Olam ha’ba (world to come). Are you familiar with the “two Messiahs” teaching of Jewish mysticism? The reason why modern Jews find so much in Christianity to be “foreign” is because the modern Jewish religion was not really invented until after the time of Christ. Ancient Jewish beliefs dovetail nicely with ancient Christian beliefs. The rabbis redesigned modern Judaism so as to have no commonality with Christianity. The more I studied ancient Jewish teachings and beliefs, the more I saw that.

The first Christians (who were Jews) recognized that it is not two Messiahs coming once each, but rather, ONE Messiah who comes TWO times. I find it very curious that the “two Messiahs” are named ben Joseph (son of Joseph) and ben David ( son of David), considering that Jesus’ earthly foster father was Joseph, and he was descended from King David.

 

[meltzerboy]

meltzerboy, I’m very familiar with not only your sentiments but also your arguments. You see, during my teen years I was briefly involved with a Jewish antimissionary organization in my city, which worked to keep Jews from becoming Christians (though we mostly worked against the group, Jews for Jesus).

However, the more I studied traditional Jewish seforim and teachings, the more Jesus started jumping out at me (figuratively speaking!)

The Zohar (Jewish mystical work) speaks of “Messiah ben Joseph” and “Messiah Ben David”…Messiah ben Joseph was to be the Messiah who would die on behalf of the Jewish people, and Messiah ben David would come later, who would lead the Jewish people into the Olam ha’ba (world to come). Are you familiar with the “two Messiahs” teaching of Jewish mysticism? The reason why modern Jews find so much in Christianity to be “foreign” is because the modern Jewish religion was not really invented until after the time of Christ. Ancient Jewish beliefs dovetail nicely with ancient Christian beliefs. The rabbis redesigned modern Judaism so as to have no commonality with Christianity. The more I studied ancient Jewish teachings and beliefs, the more I saw that.

The first Christians (who were Jews) recognized that it is not two Messiahs coming once each, but rather, ONE Messiah who comes TWO times. I find it very curious that the “two Messiahs” are named ben Joseph (son of Joseph) and ben David ( son of David), considering that Jesus’ earthly foster father was Joseph, and he was descended from King David.

Actually, the two-Messiah theme, is more complicated than this. According to the Midrashim (for the word Messiah is not even mentioned in the Tanakh or in the written Torah), the Moschiach ben Joseph and the Moschiach ben David are two distinct people who live at the same time, and both are warrior-kings to a degree, particularly the first, while Moschiach ben David is more priest-like. The first Messiah (ben Joseph) will die in battle against other nations’ opposing armies and the second Messiah (ben David) will later take up the fight and win. The Moschiach ben David will then resurrect the dead, first among whom will be the Moschiach ben Joseph, and both will ascend to G-d. Before that time though, there will be a seven-year tribulation period for the Jewish people, during which many will lose hope of redemption. This tragic event, however, can be AVOIDED, based on the nature of atonement described in other passages of the Tanakh: Jonah and Jeremiah, for example. In other words, it MAY be that the Jewish people will not suffer the period of despair between the advent of the first and second Messiah, but it all depends on their own repentance. All of this has been codified in the Midrash and interpreted from there. The Zohar, esteemed particularly by Chasidim but not so much by other Orthodox Rabbis throughout history, adds new light to this. If there is any conflict between the Zohar and the Torah (even Talmud and Mishnah), the latter takes precedence.

The whole issue of Jesus’ genealogy with regard to the house of David opens another Pandora’s box, which I’m too tired to discuss at the moment.

 

[Zhenia]

You mentioned genealogy…the interesting thing is, how will modern Jews know who Moshiach is, when the genealogical records which would enable them to know were destroyed when the Second Temple was destroyed?

 

[centurionguard]

I wouldn’t be so hasty to easily discount the Jewish people not being God’s First Chosen People in Earth History as of (“Yet”). Even if they haven’t chosen Jesus Christ as their Savior Yet.

Prophecies spoken and yet to be fulfilled in the Book of Daniel and the Apocalypse speak of Anointed Ones ("Enoch and Isaias) set to return in End Times to help the Gentiles and turn the Jewish people over to Christianity.

People however; can take that how they please. I think its an Un-Christian attitude to write-off or discount any people from gaining Gods grace in heaven besides those who call themselves Christian. Its good that we have a Great Holy Shepherd Who waste no time looking for All His lost sheep.

 

[John7]

I think its an Un-Christian attitude to write-off or discount any people from gaining Gods grace in heaven besides those who call themselves Christian.

John 14:1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
2 In my Father’s house are many rooms: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
4 And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.
5 Thomas saith unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way?
6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man comes unto the Father, but by me.
Are those verses unChristian ?

“Outside the Church there is no salvation”
846
How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers? Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body: Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.

847
This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church: **Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, **but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience—those too may achieve eternal salvation.
There are many Jews and also Muslims, Buddhists…very many non-Christians who know
alot about Christ, the Church, and the Gospel (ie that salvation is through Christ Jesus),
know the claims made by Christians yet *reject *it. Invincible ignorance?..don’t know, Jesus will judge, not me.
Luke 13:
24 Strive to enter in by the narrow door: for many, I say unto you, shall seek to enter in, and shall not be able.
25 When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, open to us; and he shall answer and say to you, I know you not whence ye are;
26 then shall ye begin to say, We did eat and drink in thy presence, and thou didst teach in our streets;
27 and he shall say, I tell you, I know not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.
**28 **There shall be the weeping and the gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and yourselves cast forth without.

Jesus is a great teacher isn’t he?

 

[EzraJacob]

You mentioned genealogy…the interesting thing is, how will modern Jews know who Moshiach is, when the genealogical records which would enable them to know were destroyed when the Second Temple was destroyed?

That is one of the only confusing points I have about leaving Judaism, even though I made the choice awhile ago and am firm in my revert to faith in Christ and Catholicism.

But there is a messianic prophecy about reestablishing the priesthood and Israel. How would this deal with now a days?

1. During the Era of the King Moshiach, once his kingdom has been established and all of Israel has gathered around him, the entire [nation’s] line of descent will be established on the basis of his words, through the prophetic spirit which will rest upon him. As it is written [Loc. cit., v. 3], “He shall sit as a refiner and purifier.”

He will purify the lineage of the Levites first, stating that “This one is a priest of defined lineage” and “This one is a Levite of defined lineage.” Those whose lineage he does not recognize will be relegated to the status of Israelites. This is implied by the following verse: [Ezra 2:63] “The governor said to them, ‘[They shall not eat of the most holy things] until a priest arises [who will wear] the Urim and Tumim.’” From this verse one can infer that the genealogy of those presumed to be of unquestioned [priestly and levitical] lineage will be traced by means of the prophetic spirit, and those found to be of such lineage will be made known.

He will define the lineage of the Israelites according to their tribe alone; i.e., he will make known each person’s tribal origin, stating that “This one is from this tribe” and “This one is from another tribe.” However, concerning a person who is presumed to be of unblemished lineage, he will not state that “He is illegitimate,” or “He is of slave lineage,” for the law rules that once a family has become intermingled [within the entire Jewish people], they may remain intermingled

kesser.org/moshiach/rambam.html

 

[Zhenia]

That is one of the only confusing points I have about leaving Judaism, even though I made the choice awhile ago and am firm in my revert to faith in Christ and Catholicism.

But there is a messianic prophecy about reestablishing the priesthood and Israel. How would this deal with now a days?

kesser.org/moshiach/rambam.html

That’s a quote from Maimonides (Rabbi Moshe ben Maimon, a/k/a the Rambam). He lived in Spain in the Middle Ages, so anything he said is not a Biblical prophecy, he is simply giving his interpretation of a Biblical prophecy.

I suppose the Rambam said that as a way of trying to explaina way the fact that the genealogical records were all destroyed with the Second Temple.

We know the genealogy of Jesus; its in the New Testament. I always did find it curious that Daniel gives the timetable for when the Messiah would appear, and that time was before 70 AD. So, no need for any genealogical records at that point, since Christ already came and we have His genealogy.

 

[meltzerboy]

That’s a quote from Maimonides (Rabbi Moshe ben Maimon, a/k/a the Rambam). He lived in Spain in the Middle Ages, so anything he said is not a Biblical prophecy, he is simply giving his interpretation of a Biblical prophecy.

I suppose the Rambam said that as a way of trying to explaina way the fact that the genealogical records were all destroyed with the Second Temple.

We know the genealogy of Jesus; its in the New Testament. I always did find it curious that Daniel gives the timetable for when the Messiah would appear, and that time was before 70 AD. So, no need for any genealogical records at that point, since Christ already came and we have His genealogy.

As you may know, Zhenia, much ink has been spilled in debating whom exactly Daniel was talking about. The words “mashiach nagid” in Hebrew mean “an anointed prince,” and the word “messiah” is not capitalized and there is also no definite article in the original Hebrew. So it appears Daniel is talking not about a unique person but rather one of several “anointed ones,” which the word mashiach literally means. It is thought there were two messiahs that he prophesied, the first being King Cyrus. But Cyrus is not regarded as the Messiah; as I previously mentioned, that word was not used in the Hebrew Bible. As to the dates, these too have been contested by Jewish scholars with respect to two separate time periods–seven years and sixty-two years–according to the comma separating them, and should not be added, as certain Christian scholars have done. The mathematical debate among scholars on this issue is in fact dizzying, with the end result being most likely that only Daniel and G-d know for sure what the former had predicted.

 

[Hail_Linus]

For starters, check into the history of why the LXX (Septuagint) was suppressed by rabbinic Judaism after the time of Christ, and replaced with the Masoretic Text (even though the Talmud even says that the LXX was written under Divine inspiration 300 years before Christ, and was fully accepted and used by all Jews).

The early Christians used the LXX Messianic prophecies to win souls for Christ, and this disturbed the rabbis of the time, since many of those souls were Jewish. They decided to suppress the LXX and come out with a version of the Tanakh with re-translated passages, designed to sound less like Christ (Isaiah 7:14 being one of the most famous.)

What you’re saying here makes a lot of sense. The LLX has one unique characteristic that separate it from all other translations of the Hebrew scriptures. It is the only translation that is truly unbiased. I believe it is reasonable to accept that it is probable that Jews, Catholics, and Protestants all have their biases when it comes to translating the Hebrew scriptures. The people that produced the LLX were completely unbiased. Therefore, we should take the LLX seriously since it was translated by Jews very familiar with Hebrew and Greek and they had no concerns regarding the yet to be religion of Christianity.

 

[Michael19682]

As you may know, Zhenia, much ink has been spilled in debating whom exactly Daniel was talking about. The words “mashiach nagid” in Hebrew mean “an anointed prince,” and the word “messiah” is not capitalized and there is also no definite article in the original Hebrew. So it appears Daniel is talking not about a unique person but rather one of several “anointed ones,” which the word mashiach literally means. It is thought there were two messiahs that he prophesied, the first being King Cyrus. But Cyrus is not regarded as the Messiah; as I previously mentioned, that word was not used in the Hebrew Bible. As to the dates, these too have been contested by Jewish scholars with respect to two separate time periods–seven years and sixty-two years–according to the comma separating them, and should not be added, as certain Christian scholars have done. The mathematical debate among scholars on this issue is in fact dizzying, with the end result being most likely that only Daniel and G-d know for sure what the former had predicted.

People of our faith are taught to believe that the Holy Spirit “has spoken through the prophets.” It has never been clear to me exactly how that is accomplished, since a mortal human [the prophet] must be this conduit, medium, or channel of [this] Inspiration. This includes human foibles, poetic license, and, of course, grammatical errors in such activity. One may argue over a missing preposition, article, etc., in the minutia of a quote, but the preponderance of evidence in these prophesies taken as a whole clearly supports the notion of a single messiah Jesus, who would ultimately be a direct and complete fulfillment of the Holy Spirit as no previous other had or could have been. In order to judge this claim, one is best advised to read his gospels and decide for oneself. Debating ancient signs and predictions is likely fun and intellectually stimulating, but cannot stand in place of His revelations in the gospels [which defy the intellect’s grasp], where we not only hear the Lord’s word, but can sense the working of the Holy Spirit in us through this word. I don’t know of anyone of general faith to begin with who had not read them in their entirety and not been transformed if not converted to their inescapable truth, viz., Jesus is the Messiah. Only one person did I meet who came close to rejection; a female; and she too argued over things like capitalization and translations from Greek and Hebrew to English, etc.

For those who would say: “Put your money where your mouth is”, I will include a few quotes from this our first installment on the gift of eternal life:

“To the weak I became weak, to win over the week. I have have become all things to all, to save at least some.” [thus, of relevance here, is Paul’s challenge to the Jewish intellect, which is not easily swayed by anything] 1 Corinthians 9:22

If the possibility of discussing Christian doctrine seems daunting to a non-Christian, consider the power of the Holy Spirit as revealed in John 14:26

“The Advocate, the holy Spirit that the Father will send in my name–he will teach you everything and remind of all that * told you.”

Then of course Jesus tells us that his words are spirit and life. I believe that this means we can trust his words as more currently useful to us than the prophets words. I don’t really like this analogy, but I’ll use it here: it is like ‘a pointer’ in a computer program; the data we are after, the objects methods and properties are stored in a dynamic memory, to which the pointer merely holds reference. Hence the plurality of prophets all pointing to the one Jesus and his gospel.

Peace.*

 

[Zhenia]

What you’re saying here makes a lot of sense. The LLX has one unique characteristic that separate it from all other translations of the Hebrew scriptures. It is the only translation that is truly unbiased. I believe it is reasonable to accept that it is probable that Jews, Catholics, and Protestants all have their biases when it comes to translating the Hebrew scriptures. The people that produced the LLX were completely unbiased. Therefore, we should take the LLX seriously since it was translated by Jews very familiar with Hebrew and Greek and they had no concerns regarding the yet to be religion of Christianity.

That is exactly what my son says too! He said that the LXX was translated at a time before Christ had come into the world, and so the translators had no REASON to be biased one way OR the other.

 

[trdchubi]

I was hoping to enter the Catholic faith (although I have had a few disheartening moments to date ), but I am confused about several points.
I know that there are a number of Christian organisations in America in particular that revere Jews as the Chosen people even though these Christians believe that Jesus Christ was the son of God whereas Jews from what I understand, do not believe he was the Messiah. How does that work?

**The scripture says this:

I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. Romans 11:25
**

Secondly is it part of the Catholic faith to believe that Jewish people are the Chosen people?

Yes they were chosen, and is still chosen by the God of Abraham Isaac and Jacob. Anything else is replacement theology.

Thirdly, I still find it perplexing that Jesus was a Jew but, is for the most part worshipped by non Jews. Will there be a place in heaven for those who have renounced him?

**Only through the Grace and Mercy of the True Living God. **

 

[Hail_Linus]

The rejection of Jesus is not the first time Jews rejected God as their king. The reason Jews even had kings was the result of rejecting God as their King and demanding a human King. In 1 Samuel 8:7 God says to Samuel, “And the LORD said to Samuel, “Obey the voice of the people in all that they say to you, for they have not rejected you, but they have rejected me from being king over them.”

Even though the Jews rejected God as their King in 1 Samuel 8:7 they did not stop being the Chosen People. I see no reason why they would stop being the Chosen people for rejecting God (Jesus) as their King a second time. The main thing that happened is the Kingdom was taken away from them and all that goes with that. Jews still worship the one true God, they just do not accept the Trinity. Furthermore they still have the opportunity to join the new Kingdom.

 

[Zhenia]

**The scripture says this:

I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. Romans 11:25
**

Yes they were chosen, and is still chosen by the God of Abraham Isaac and Jacob. Anything else is replacement theology.

**Only through the Grace and Mercy of the True Living God. **

The early Church Fathers believed in what you call “replacement theology”. The New Testament is replete with direct and indirect references to it.

Have you ever read the Parable of the Wicked Vinedressers (St Matthew 21:33-43)? I am of Jewish birth and I have to tell you, the very first time I ever read the New Testament, I saw “replacement theology” all over the place. I still do.

 

[Zhenia]

The rejection of Jesus is not the first time Jews rejected God as their king. The reason Jews even had kings was the result of rejecting God as their King and demanding a human King. In 1 Samuel 8:7 God says to Samuel, “And the LORD said to Samuel, “Obey the voice of the people in all that they say to you, for they have not rejected you, but they have rejected me from being king over them.”

Even though the Jews rejected God as their King in 1 Samuel 8:7 they did not stop being the Chosen People. I see no reason why they would stop being the Chosen people for rejecting God (Jesus) as their King a second time. The main thing that happened is the Kingdom was taken away from them and all that goes with that. Jews still worship the one true God, they just do not accept the Trinity. Furthermore they still have the opportunity to join the new Kingdom.

God’s Covenants are conditional. A careful study of the Bible reveals this. Jeremiah 31:31-37 and St Matthew 21:33-43 clearly show that God will reject those who reject Him.

You say “most Jews still worship the one true God”. Actually most Jews are secular and do not worship any god. Only 10% of Jews are Orthodox (very religious); the vast majority identify as secular Jews, esp. in America.

I’m Jewish myself (I was raised an Orthodox Jew and became a Christian many years ago). I can tell you that those of us who were religious Jews were always a tiny minority, at least in modern times.

 

[Hail_Linus]

God’s Covenants are conditional. A careful study of the Bible reveals this. Jeremiah 31:31-37 and St Matthew 21:33-43 clearly show that God will reject those who reject Him.

You say “most Jews still worship the one true God”. Actually most Jews are secular and do not worship any god. Only 10% of Jews are Orthodox (very religious); the vast majority identify as secular Jews, esp. in America.

I’m Jewish myself (I was raised an Orthodox Jew and became a Christian many years ago). I can tell you that those of us who were religious Jews were always a tiny minority, at least in modern times.

Yes you probably are very correct. I have a good friend who is a serious Orthodox Jew who tells me the non-orthodox are actually non-practicing Jews.

 

[Zhenia]

Yes you probably are very correct. I have a good friend who is a serious Orthodox Jew who tells me the non-orthodox are actually non-practicing Jews.

There are the Reform, the Conservative, the Reconstructionist and the Jewish Renewal Movement. They all basically are offshoots originally of traditional (Orthodox) Judaism, at one time or another.

The Conservatives are not really conservative the way we think of the word; it means they wanted to save or “conserve” some of the Jewish traditions while disposing of the ones they felt were not necessary for today.

The Reform and Reconstructionist are the most liberal.

To the Orthodox, ALL non-Orthodox Jews are “secular”, but in reality, only Jews who are not in any way religious, could be termed that.

Bottom line is that most Jews really do not believe in God the way devout Christians do. For many Jews its more of a social club than anything else.

I have to explain all this to Christians a lot, because Christians tend to assume Jews think about God and religion the same way they do. Did you know a person is regarded as a Jew even if they are a committed atheist? Even if a Jew stops believing, he remains a Jew, whereas for a Christian, faith is what keeps them Christian.

Most Jews also are very unfamiliar with their own Bible. As a teenager, before I became a Christian, I was once picketing with other pro-lifers outside an abortion clinic, and a “Reform” Jewish pro-abortion protester on the other side got into a debate with me (I forget how it started!) Anyway, somehow the subject got around to the resurrection of the dead and she accused me of being brainwashed by Christians because I said I believed in the resurrection of the dead! That shows you how ignorant of their OWN teachings many Jews are.

Orthodox Jews, daily, as part of their prayers, attest: “I believe with perfect faith in the resurrection of the dead, at a time and place when it shall please the Creator”. In fact the Hebrew phrase for “resurrection of the dead” is techiyat ha’meitim.