Jews as the Chosen people?

[changecomes]

I was hoping to enter the Catholic faith (although I have had a few disheartening moments to date ), but I am confused about several points.
I know that there are a number of Christian organisations in America in particular that revere Jews as the Chosen people even though these Christians believe that Jesus Christ was the son of God whereas Jews from what I understand, do not believe he was the Messiah. How does that work?

Secondly is it part of the Catholic faith to believe that Jewish people are the Chosen people?

Thirdly, I still find it perplexing that Jesus was a Jew but, is for the most part worshipped by non Jews. Will there be a place in heaven for those who have renounced him?

Thanks for your answers - these were just questions going about in my mind last night and I was unable to ascertain the answers myself.

 

[Zhenia]

I was hoping to enter the Catholic faith (although I have had a few disheartening moments to date ), but I am confused about several points.
I know that there are a number of Christian organisations in America in particular that revere Jews as the Chosen people even though these Christians believe that Jesus Christ was the son of God whereas Jews from what I understand, do not believe he was the Messiah. How does that work?

Secondly is it part of the Catholic faith to believe that Jewish people are the Chosen people?

Thirdly, I still find it perplexing that Jesus was a Jew but, is for the most part worshipped by non Jews. Will there be a place in heaven for those who have renounced him?

Thanks for your answers - these were just questions going about in my mind last night and I was unable to ascertain the answers myself.

The Israelites were the chosen people of God under the Old Covenant. Now that Christ has come, ANYONE who accepts Him and joins His Church is part of “Israel”, whether they are of Jewish or Gentile ancestry. In short, the Church is Israel now.

The Christians who believe that unconverted Jews are still “Israel” and still have a Covenant with God, are called Protestants dispensationalists, also known as Darbyism. Their theology has only existed since the 1800s; the most ancient Christians…the Church Fathers, etc did not believe what they do.

 

[swariffin]

We cannot deny the fact the Jewish was the people who reflect their historical as well as daily life to God, as we read the OT. They are perhaps also the first people who believe in Monotheism. The Good News of God first is given to them before to other people. But, unfortunately, since they refused it, the Good News of God is brought to the rest of the people in this world.

 

[meltzerboy]

I was hoping to enter the Catholic faith (although I have had a few disheartening moments to date ), but I am confused about several points.
I know that there are a number of Christian organisations in America in particular that revere Jews as the Chosen people even though these Christians believe that Jesus Christ was the son of God whereas Jews from what I understand, do not believe he was the Messiah. How does that work?

Secondly is it part of the Catholic faith to believe that Jewish people are the Chosen people?

Thirdly, I still find it perplexing that Jesus was a Jew but, is for the most part worshipped by non Jews. Will there be a place in heaven for those who have renounced him?

Thanks for your answers - these were just questions going about in my mind last night and I was unable to ascertain the answers myself.

I might point out that the title of “The Chosen People,” which is given to the Jews, does not mean that G-d loves the Jews better than any other people or that the Jews are smarter, stronger, more holy, or anything else. What it does mean is that G-d chose this people to receive His Torah Law, the eternal covenant, and by their moral example to spread His righteousness to other nations. For Jews, ancient Israel is the suffering servant spoken of in Isaiah, a people who was, is, and will be persecuted by other nations until the Messianic Age when G-d’s Torah Law is made apparent to all. But until then, Jews have an obligation to keep G-d’s commandments and instill morality in their own people as well as serving as a model for other peoples.

 

[mightyaphrodite]

I am glad to welcome you to our Catholic faith! To answer your question, YES (!), the Jews are God’s “Chosen People”, and because God does not lie, they always will be. This statement does not mean that God loves them more, or thinks less of us. But they were they first group of people that were specifically chosen to enter into covenant with the one true God. In their obedience and disobedience to God’s word, He never failed to love them, in much the same way a parent always loves us even when we disappoint them.

The omnipotence of God allows Him to love each in a profound and personal way. Jesus was born the King of the Jews (which He is) and through His love of all mankind, is the King of all people. God, our Father, loves those who love and defend His "firstborn"people.

One of the most surprising facts is the increasing number of Hebrew Catholics. I often pray to one of our newest saints, Theresa Benedicta (AKA: Edith Stein). A brilliant scholar, she converted to Catholicism, became a nun and was executed at Auschwitz with her sister, Rose.

In conclusion, do not worry about other people’s renunciation or acceptance of Christ the King. Everyone will have the opportunity to make the choice of accepting Christ - - let’s pray in earnest that everyone will come to know Him.

 

[John7]

Christians are chosen…

1 Peter 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a
peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:

“the Church is the new people of God”
NOSTRA AETATE
PROCLAIMED BY HIS HOLINESS
POPE PAUL VI
ON OCTOBER 28, 1965

 

[Zhenia]

I might point out that the title of “The Chosen People,” which is given to the Jews, does not mean that G-d loves the Jews better than any other people or that the Jews are smarter, stronger, more holy, or anything else. What it does mean is that G-d chose this people to receive His Torah Law, the eternal covenant, and by their moral example to spread His righteousness to other nations. For Jews, ancient Israel is the suffering servant spoken of in Isaiah, a people who was, is, and will be persecuted by other nations until the Messianic Age when G-d’s Torah Law is made apparent to all. But until then, Jews have an obligation to keep G-d’s commandments and instill morality in their own people as well as serving as a model for other peoples.

Most of this is true, however, the Jewish religion did not begin seeing the Suffering Servant of Isaiah 53 as being Israel/the Jewish people until the time of Rashi, in 13th century France.

Prior to that, almost all rabbinic scholars recognized the Suffering Servant of Isaiah 53 as referring to the coming Messiah, did you know that?

Modern Judaism (the Judaism in existence since the time of the destruction of the 2nd Temple) is largely fabricated and reinvented, intended to be a response to the success of the early Christian movement. Ancient Judaism was very different, and much closer to Christian thought than most ppl realize.

 

[Zhenia]

I am glad to welcome you to our Catholic faith! To answer your question, YES (!), the Jews are God’s “Chosen People”, and because God does not lie, they always will be. This statement does not mean that God loves them more, or thinks less of us. But they were they first group of people that were specifically chosen to enter into covenant with the one true God. In their obedience and disobedience to God’s word, He never failed to love them, in much the same way a parent always loves us even when we disappoint them.

This is not what the historic Church has taught. The Church Fathers clearly taught that while the Jewish people were the chosen people, that ended when they rejected Christ. Now, the Church is New Israel, and this New Israel is composed of ALL who accept Christ, whether they are of Jewish or nonJewish descent.

The only way anyone, Jew or Gentile, can become part of Israel now is to accept Christ.

 

[meltzerboy]

Most of this is true, however, the Jewish religion did not begin seeing the Suffering Servant of Isaiah 53 as being Israel/the Jewish people until the time of Rashi, in 13th century France.

Prior to that, almost all rabbinic scholars recognized the Suffering Servant of Isaiah 53 as referring to the coming Messiah, did you know that?

Modern Judaism (the Judaism in existence since the time of the destruction of the 2nd Temple) is largely fabricated and reinvented, intended to be a response to the success of the early Christian movement. Ancient Judaism was very different, and much closer to Christian thought than most ppl realize.

In what way is Modern Judaism fabricated or reinvented? The Pharisees accepted the Oral Law as well as the Written Law of the Torah, and the former was later codified in the Talmud. Is this what you are referring to? Apart from the inability to follow about half of the 613 Torah commandments due to the destruction of the Temple, the only “reinvention” I can think of are the customs and practices formulated by the Rabbis throughout the centuries, many of which are not binding. However, this is also true of Catholicism, which consists of Church Tradition as well as basic doctrines and dogma. Judaism’s basic doctrines and core beliefs have not really changed throughout the centuries. Also, how was Ancient Judaism closer to Christian thought? Actually the reverse may be more correct: early Christian thought was closer to Ancient Judaism, but gradually grew further apart.

 

[byeveryword]

The Israelites were the chosen people of God under the Old Covenant. Now that Christ has come, ANYONE who accepts Him and joins His Church is part of “Israel”, whether they are of Jewish or Gentile ancestry. In short, the Church is Israel now.

The Christians who believe that unconverted Jews are still “Israel” and still have a Covenant with God, are called Protestants dispensationalists, also known as Darbyism. Their theology has only existed since the 1800s; the most ancient Christians…the Church Fathers, etc did not believe what they do.

God never annulled His covenant with Israel. “His gifts and callings are without repentance”
(Rom. 11). The last question that the Jewish disciples asked Jesus Christ before he ascended into heaven was, “Lord will you at this time restore Israel?” Jesus responded by saying, “It is not for you to know the times or the seasons which the Father has laid down on his own authority” (Acts 1:6-7)

 

[John7]

God never annulled His covenant with Israel. “His gifts and callings are without repentance”
(Rom. 11). The last question that the Jewish disciples asked Jesus Christ before he ascended into heaven was, “Lord will you at this time restore Israel?” Jesus responded by saying, “It is not for you to know the times or the seasons which the Father has laid down on his own authority” (Acts 1:6-7)

1 Thessalonians 2:14-16
“…the Jews: (except those that believe in Christ)
Who both killed the Lord Jesus,
and their own prophets,
and have persecuted us;
and they please not God,
and are contrary to all men:
Forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles
that they might be saved,
to fill up their sins alway:
for the **wrath is come upon them **
to the uttermost.”

St. Paul under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit

“the Church is the new people of God”
NOSTRA AETATE
PROCLAIMED BY HIS HOLINESS
POPE PAUL VI
ON OCTOBER 28, 1965

 

[John7]

Hi,

but has anything changed
since Paul wrote this?

for example, do Jews
(excluding those who believe in Christ)
now please God?

Luke 10:16 “…he that despiseth me despiseth him that sent me.”

 

[Zhenia]

In what way is Modern Judaism fabricated or reinvented? The Pharisees accepted the Oral Law as well as the Written Law of the Torah, and the former was later codified in the Talmud. Is this what you are referring to? Apart from the inability to follow about half of the 613 Torah commandments due to the destruction of the Temple, the only “reinvention” I can think of are the customs and practices formulated by the Rabbis throughout the centuries, many of which are not binding. However, this is also true of Catholicism, which consists of Church Tradition as well as basic doctrines and dogma. Judaism’s basic doctrines and core beliefs have not really changed throughout the centuries. Also, how was Ancient Judaism closer to Christian thought? Actually the reverse may be more correct: early Christian thought was closer to Ancient Judaism, but gradually grew further apart.

For starters, check into the history of why the LXX (Septuagint) was suppressed by rabbinic Judaism after the time of Christ, and replaced with the Masoretic Text (even though the Talmud even says that the LXX was written under Divine inspiration 300 years before Christ, and was fully accepted and used by all Jews).

The early Christians used the LXX Messianic prophecies to win souls for Christ, and this disturbed the rabbis of the time, since many of those souls were Jewish. They decided to suppress the LXX and come out with a version of the Tanakh with re-translated passages, designed to sound less like Christ (Isaiah 7:14 being one of the most famous.)

For more info see “Justin Martyr’s Dialogue with Trypho the Jew”: earlychristianwritings.com/text/justinmartyr-dialoguetrypho.html They also removed certain lines in some of the prophecies that made them sound too much like Jesus.

Ancient Judaism believed that blood of sacrificed animals atoned for sin, and nothing else. This is in the Torah. However, after Jesus was crucified (and the Temple was destroyed in 70 AD/CE as He foretold), animal sacrifice could no longer be performed, so the rabbis decided to change what Judaism had previously believed…now, they claimed, sin could be atoned for by tzedakah (charity),mitzvot (good deeds) and tefillah (prayer).

Furthermore, as I stated earlier, the rabbis uniformly believed that Is 53 spoke of the coming Messiah, and it was not until Rashi in medieval France decided that is meant the people of Israel (the Jews) instead.

Ancient Judaism also believed in a triune Godhead, contrary to modern Jewish beliefs:

“Hear O Israel, YHVH Elohenu YHVH is one. These three are one. How can the three Names be one? Only through the perception of Faith: in the vision of the Holy Spirit, int he beholding of the hidden eyes alone. The mystery of the audible voice is similar to this, for though it is one, yet it consists of three elements–fire, air and water, which have, however, become one in the mystery of the voice. Even so it is with the mystery of the threefold Divine manifestations designated by YHVH Elohenu YHVH—three modes which form yet one unity.” (Zohar, Vol 3, p 134, Soncino Press, c 1984, London)

(Note: the Kabbalah, of which the Zohar is the largest part, consists of oral beliefs handed down for many centuries until finally being committed to writing, not unlike the oral law (Talmud.)

Ancient Judaism also believed that a very holy tzaddik (righteous man) could suffer and die to atone not only for the sins of his generation, but also, if he is exceptionally righteous, for the sins of all mankind from the very first humans (see Derekh Hashem, The Way of God, by Rabbi Moshe Chaim Luzatto, a/k/a The Ramchal, p 123, Feldheim edition).

 

[byeveryword]

For starters, check into the history of why the LXX (Septuagint) was suppressed by rabbinic Judaism after the time of Christ, and replaced with the Masoretic Text (even though the Talmud even says that the LXX was written under Divine inspiration 300 years before Christ, and was fully accepted and used by all Jews).

The early Christians used the LXX Messianic prophecies to win souls for Christ, and this disturbed the rabbis of the time, since many of those souls were Jewish. They decided to suppress the LXX and come out with a version of the Tanakh with re-translated passages, designed to sound less like Christ (Isaiah 7:14 being one of the most famous.)

For more info see “Justin Martyr’s Dialogue with Trypho the Jew”: earlychristianwritings.com/text/justinmartyr-dialoguetrypho.html They also removed certain lines in some of the prophecies that made them sound too much like Jesus.

Ancient Judaism believed that blood of sacrificed animals atoned for sin, and nothing else. This is in the Torah. However, after Jesus was crucified (and the Temple was destroyed in 70 AD/CE as He foretold), animal sacrifice could no longer be performed, so the rabbis decided to change what Judaism had previously believed…now, they claimed, sin could be atoned for by tzedakah (charity) and mitzvot (good deeds).

In the same Dialogue, Justin Martyr gives Trypho some leeway about Jewish people who believe in Jesus Christ, but desire to hold to certain ceremonial aspects of the law without imposing their beliefs on others. Justin Martyr also expresses his belief to Trypho that a literal Jerusalem will be restored.

 

[Della]

I was hoping to enter the Catholic faith (although I have had a few disheartening moments to date ), but I am confused about several points.
I know that there are a number of Christian organisations in America in particular that revere Jews as the Chosen people even though these Christians believe that Jesus Christ was the son of God whereas Jews from what I understand, do not believe he was the Messiah. How does that work?

The Jews of today are the descendants of those who never accepted Jesus as the Messiah. God has not rejected them, as a group, nor are they to be condemned, any more than Hindus or Muslims. They were chosen by God to do two things: firstly to be God’s witness in the world as the one true God and secondly to give birth to the Messiah who would save them and the world. They accomplished both these because God promised they would. To say that they are no longer pleasing to God since they do not hold to Jesus’ Messiahship would be to go too far, but they are holding on to a covenant that has been fulfilled. In that they are faithful to God as they see it, God sees and approves, as he does anyone who does not have the light of the Gospel.

Secondly is it part of the Catholic faith to believe that Jewish people are the Chosen people?

Anyone who is in Christ is now a part of the chosen people, but that does not exclude those, who no fault of their own have not/cannot accept this truth.

Thirdly, I still find it perplexing that Jesus was a Jew but, is for the most part worshipped by non Jews.

That shouldn’t be so surprising considering most of the world’s people are not Jewish.

Will there be a place in heaven for those who have renounced him?

Anyone who, with full knowledge and consent rejects Christ will have no place in heaven. Why would anyone want to be with someone for all eternity who they reject? Most Jews do not have full knowledge or full consent of their wills in this matter because they simply don’t know the truth and have been isolated from the truths of the Church all their lives. God judges us on what graces we had and what we did with them, not on what we never knew or were able to accept.

Thanks for your answers - these were just questions going about in my mind last night and I was unable to ascertain the answers myself.

The best place for such answers is the Catechism of the Catholic Church. It’s available online: vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/_INDEX.HTM.

The relevant section dealing with the salvation of non-Christians:

Possible salvation of non-Christians: #s 846-848.

“Outside the Church there is no salvation”
846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:
Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.336
847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:
Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.337
848 "Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men."338

 

[byeveryword]

The Jews of today are the descendants of those who never accepted Jesus as the Messiah. God has not rejected them, as a group, nor are they to be condemned, any more than Hindus or Muslims. They were chosen by God to do two things: firstly to be God’s witness in the world as the one true God and secondly to give birth to the Messiah who would save them and the world. They accomplished both these because God promised they would. To say that they are no longer pleasing to God since they do not hold to Jesus’ Messiahship would be to go too far, but they are holding on to a covenant that has been fulfilled. In that they are faithful to God as they see it, God sees and approves, as he does anyone who does not have the light of the Gospel.

Anyone who is in Christ is now a part of the chosen people, but that does not exclude those, who no fault of their own have not/cannot accept this truth.

That shouldn’t be so surprising considering most of the world’s people are not Jewish.

Anyone who, with full knowledge and consent rejects Christ will have no place in heaven. Why would anyone want to be with someone for all eternity who they reject? Most Jews do not have full knowledge or full consent of their wills in this matter because they simply don’t know the truth and have been isolated from the truths of the Church all their lives. God judges us on what graces we had and what we did with them, not on what we never knew or were able to accept.

The best place for such answers is the Catechism of the Catholic Church. It’s available online: vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/_INDEX.HTM.

The relevant section dealing with the salvation of non-Christians:

Possible salvation of non-Christians: #s 846-848.

“Outside the Church there is no salvation”
846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:
Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.336
847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:
Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.337
848 "Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men."338

Excellent responses to all questions posed, and 847 and 848 is applicable to all sincere, devout Jews who are without the light of the gospel.

 

[meltzerboy]

For starters, check into the history of why the LXX (Septuagint) was suppressed by rabbinic Judaism after the time of Christ, and replaced with the Masoretic Text (even though the Talmud even says that the LXX was written under Divine inspiration 300 years before Christ, and was fully accepted and used by all Jews).

The early Christians used the LXX Messianic prophecies to win souls for Christ, and this disturbed the rabbis of the time, since many of those souls were Jewish. They decided to suppress the LXX and come out with a version of the Tanakh with re-translated passages, designed to sound less like Christ (Isaiah 7:14 being one of the most famous.)

For more info see “Justin Martyr’s Dialogue with Trypho the Jew”: earlychristianwritings.com/text/justinmartyr-dialoguetrypho.html They also removed certain lines in some of the prophecies that made them sound too much like Jesus.

Ancient Judaism believed that blood of sacrificed animals atoned for sin, and nothing else. This is in the Torah. However, after Jesus was crucified (and the Temple was destroyed in 70 AD/CE as He foretold), animal sacrifice could no longer be performed, so the rabbis decided to change what Judaism had previously believed…now, they claimed, sin could be atoned for by tzedakah (charity),mitzvot (good deeds) and tefillah (prayer).

Furthermore, as I stated earlier, the rabbis uniformly believed that Is 53 spoke of the coming Messiah, and it was not until Rashi in medieval France decided that is meant the people of Israel (the Jews) instead.

Ancient Judaism also believed in a triune Godhead, contrary to modern Jewish beliefs:

“Hear O Israel, YHVH Elohenu YHVH is one. These three are one. How can the three Names be one? Only through the perception of Faith: in the vision of the Holy Spirit, int he beholding of the hidden eyes alone. The mystery of the audible voice is similar to this, for though it is one, yet it consists of three elements–fire, air and water, which have, however, become one in the mystery of the voice. Even so it is with the mystery of the threefold Divine manifestations designated by YHVH Elohenu YHVH—three modes which form yet one unity.” (Zohar, Vol 3, p 134, Soncino Press, c 1984, London)

(Note: the Kabbalah, of which the Zohar is the largest part, consists of oral beliefs handed down for many centuries until finally being committed to writing, not unlike the oral law (Talmud.)

Ancient Judaism also believed that a very holy tzaddik (righteous man) could suffer and die to atone not only for the sins of his generation, but also, if he is exceptionally righteous, for the sins of all mankind from the very first humans (see Derekh Hashem, The Way of God, by Rabbi Moshe Chaim Luzatto, a/k/a The Ramchal, p 123, Feldheim edition).

Zhenia, I’ll address two of your points for now and try to get to your other comments a little later. One can easily be dismissed, namely the passage you quote from the Zohar claiming that the Shema is really the equivalent of the Trinity since it mentions G-d’s name three times. This happens to be a well-known forgery, which was perpetrated by Chosen People Ministries and a “Rabbi” Cohn (who is a Christian convert), and used frequently by this group of Protestant missionaries. The original Zohar simply does not contain this passage. Another point you raised, that is, about the blood sacrifice of animals for atonement, which is mentioned in Torah, is also often used by missionaries. First of all, this type of atonement is effective only for unintentional sin, not for intentional sin, and is in fact deemed the LEAST effective form of atonement. And secondly, Torah mentions other forms of atonement, such as incense and prayer, in Leviticus and Exodus, for example.

 

[Zhenia]

Zhenia, I’ll address two of your points for now and try to get to your other comments a little later. One can easily be dismissed, namely the passage you quote from the Zohar claiming that the Shema is really the equivalent of the Trinity since it mentions G-d’s name three times. This happens to be a well-known forgery, which was perpetrated by Chosen People Ministries and a “Rabbi” Cohn (who is a Christian convert), and used frequently by this group of Protestant missionaries. The original Zohar simply does not contain this passage. Another point you raised, that is, about the blood sacrifice of animals for atonement, which is mentioned in Torah, is also often used by missionaries. First of all, this type of atonement is effective only for unintentional sin, not for intentional sin, and is in fact deemed the LEAST effective form of atonement. And secondly, Torah mentions other forms of atonement, such as incense and prayer, in Leviticus and Exodus, for example.

Uhm, meltzerboy? Its not a forgery. I have a complete set of the Zohar in English, published by Soncino Press in 1984, in London, England. I bought it for $80.00 a number of years ago, from an Orthodox Jewish publisher. I bought it, in fact, during a time when I had returned to Orthodox Judaism.

What I quoted here, I copied directly from one of the 5 volume set I have. It was translated by Harry Sperling and Maurice Simon, with an introduction by Dr J Abelson. You can even buy it online: amazon.com/Zohar-5-set-Maurice-Simon/dp/0900689390/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1311288576&sr=8-2 This is a link on Amazon to the set I own.

Want the ISBN number? Its 0-900689-39-0

You are either not being truthful, or you were lied to. But its OK, I was lied to also, in many ways, about what Judaism actually teaches. That’s why I began studying it on my own.

I’d be interested to know what you think about what the Ramchal said in Derekh Hashem, about the tzaddik being able to suffer to atone for the sins of his generation, and even the sins of all humankind from the first man and woman (Derekh Hashem, p 123-125). And if you want to know where I bought that: Feldheim Publishers: amazon.com/Way-God-Classics-Library-English/dp/087306769X

 

[Zhenia]

bump (I want to make sure meltzerboy sees this).

 

[meltzerboy]

Uhm, meltzerboy? Its not a forgery. I have a complete set of the Zohar in English, published by Soncino Press in 1984, in London, England. I bought it for $80.00 a number of years ago, from an Orthodox Jewish publisher. I bought it, in fact, during a time when I had returned to Orthodox Judaism.

What I quoted here, I copied directly from one of the 5 volume set I have. It was translated by Harry Sperling and Maurice Simon, with an introduction by Dr J Abelson. You can even buy it online: amazon.com/Zohar-5-set-Maurice-Simon/dp/0900689390/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1311288576&sr=8-2 This is a link on Amazon to the set I own.

Want the ISBN number? Its 0-900689-39-0

You are either not being truthful, or you were lied to. But its OK, I was lied to also, in many ways, about what Judaism actually teaches. That’s why I began studying it on my own.

I’d be interested to know what you think about what the Ramchal said in Derekh Hashem, about the tzaddik being able to suffer to atone for the sins of his generation, and even the sins of all humankind from the first man and woman (Derekh Hashem, p 123-125). And if you want to know where I bought that: Feldheim Publishers: amazon.com/Way-God-Classics-Library-English/dp/087306769X

According to the sources I read, the passage is a forgery. I did not make this up. And even if it were not a forgery, no (Hasidic) Orthodox Jew of the past or present who studied the Zohar, would interpret such a passage as justification for the belief in a Triune G-d. As to the Tzadik, I assume you’re making a case in Judaism for vicarious atonement through suffering and death and likening this to the suffering and death of Jesus. In fact, this atonement process does exist in Judaism; however, it is generally considered a complement to the atonement of the “ordinary” individual who is not as holy as the Tzadik. In other words, the Tzadik’s participation may tip the balance in favor of the individual, but it is preferable that the Jew–or Gentile–atone for his own sins. As in the previous example of animal blood sacrifice, it is not considered the most effective means of atonement. Further, the suffering of the Tzadik does not require his own death. There is also an example of this in the Tanakh: Ezekiel. His suffering is not followed by death and is periodic in manner, not constant. Finally, the Tzadik is regarded as part of the collective group of individuals (and actually regarded as holier mainly in comparison to them). Although more righteous, he is not free of sin since he is held to a higher standard than the ordinary person. His suffering is therefore not only on behalf of others but also due to his own higher nature.