Jews as the Chosen people?

[trdchubi]

The early Church Fathers believed in what you call “replacement theology”. The New Testament is replete with direct and indirect references to it.

Well we are not a perfect church. Every man is susceptible to mistakes and misinformation under the auspices of zealous faith. This kind of misinterpretation of Scripture by the church fathers has helped spawn and stimulate Christian anti-Semitism via the Crusades, the Inquisition, the Russian pogroms, the Holocaust to name a few.

Have you ever read the Parable of the Wicked Vinedressers (St Matthew 21:33-43)?

The narrative about God sending Prophets after Prophets, whom the Jewish scholars and their followers rejected, until God sends them his only Son, whom they later scourged and crucified does not suggest total rejection of his Chosen People. Verse 45 endorse only a specific group of people as responsible.

45 When the chief priests and the Pharisees heard Jesus’ parables, they knew he was talking about them. 46 They looked for a way to arrest him, but they were afraid of the crowd because the people held that he was a prophet.

I am of Jewish birth and I have to tell you, the very first time I ever read the New Testament, I saw “replacement theology” all over the place. I still do.

Try to look at the New testament in a different light from the experience of other Jews:

The New Testament: A Pro-Jewish Book

 

[trdchubi]

God’s Covenants are conditional. A careful study of the Bible reveals this. Jeremiah 31:31-37 and St Matthew 21:33-43 clearly show that God will reject those who reject Him.

You say “most Jews still worship the one true God”. Actually most Jews are secular and do not worship any god. Only 10% of Jews are Orthodox (very religious); the vast majority identify as secular Jews, esp. in America.

I’m Jewish myself (I was raised an Orthodox Jew and became a Christian many years ago). I can tell you that those of us who were religious Jews were always a tiny minority, at least in modern times.

God just needed a tiny minority to save a wicked nation ( Sodom). Will he not do the same for His own chosen people? This minority whom you say you are part of is the same people who has kept God from abolishing his promises.

Are you not the same chosen people (who were patiently watching and waiting) who will receive and say to Yeshuah:

Baruch Haba HaShem Adonai (Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord)when he comes back? Just asking

Shalom Ha Mashiach

 

[meltzerboy]

There are the Reform, the Conservative, the Reconstructionist and the Jewish Renewal Movement. They all basically are offshoots originally of traditional (Orthodox) Judaism, at one time or another.

The Conservatives are not really conservative the way we think of the word; it means they wanted to save or “conserve” some of the Jewish traditions while disposing of the ones they felt were not necessary for today.

The Reform and Reconstructionist are the most liberal.

To the Orthodox, ALL non-Orthodox Jews are “secular”, but in reality, only Jews who are not in any way religious, could be termed that.

Bottom line is that most Jews really do not believe in God the way devout Christians do. For many Jews its more of a social club than anything else.

I have to explain all this to Christians a lot, because Christians tend to assume Jews think about God and religion the same way they do. Did you know a person is regarded as a Jew even if they are a committed atheist? Even if a Jew stops believing, he remains a Jew, whereas for a Christian, faith is what keeps them Christian.

Most Jews also are very unfamiliar with their own Bible. As a teenager, before I became a Christian, I was once picketing with other pro-lifers outside an abortion clinic, and a “Reform” Jewish pro-abortion protester on the other side got into a debate with me (I forget how it started!) Anyway, somehow the subject got around to the resurrection of the dead and she accused me of being brainwashed by Christians because I said I believed in the resurrection of the dead! That shows you how ignorant of their OWN teachings many Jews are.

Orthodox Jews, daily, as part of their prayers, attest: “I believe with perfect faith in the resurrection of the dead, at a time and place when it shall please the Creator”. In fact the Hebrew phrase for “resurrection of the dead” is techiyat ha’meitim.

I agree, Zhenia, that there are plenty of secular Jews, some of whom are atheists or agnostics and others of whom may believe in G-d but are totally non-practicing. However, there are also a sizable number of non-practicing Catholics as well as so-called cafeteria Catholics–I have several friends who fit into these categories–many of whom believe in the Trinity, but beyond this, pick and choose what they believe and don’t believe with regard to the doctrines of the Church. A significant number of both groups–Jews and Catholics–don’t really think too much about religion at all: probably more men than women although I don’t have the statistics handy. And I would bet that just as many Catholics, proportionally speaking, are ignorant of the Bible as Jews are. Conservative Judaism did not derive from Orthodox Judaism, but from Reform Judaism, as a response to what it believed to be the too-extreme reaction against Orthodox Judaism. Conservative Judaism is thus the middle ground between Orthodoxy and Reform, as you know. The notion of the “resurrection of the dead,” while believed by all Orthodox Jews today, most Conservative Jews, and some Reform Jews, has a long history of debate within Judaism, and was not a part of the Sadducees’ belief system in Ancient Judaism, even though it is a part of Maimonides’ Thirteen Principles of Faith. If the protester you mentioned was truly a Reform Jew–and not a secular Jew–she might have been following what her rabbi said or what she was taught at home regarding the resurrection of the dead, since Reform Judaism is officially divided on this issue. Finally, I don’t know if you’re current or not on what’s happening in Judaism these days, but there is a resurgence of Orthodox Judaism among many young people, as well as a renaissance of Jews in less orthodox movements, such as the one you mentioned called “Jewish Revival,” and also Humanistic Judaism. Despite persistent attempts at evangelism directed toward Jews by groups such as Jews for Jesus and Jehovah Witnesses, Judaism as a religion is growing today, not shrinking, in diverse forms. This also includes the Messianic Jews and Hebrew Catholics (whom most Jews don’t consider within the fold of Judaism), both of whom largely identify as Jews.

Another point: isn’t it true that one is still considered a Catholic even if one is an atheist or a lapsed Catholic, or even a convert, provided one was baptized Catholic? Isn’t this parallel to being born a Jew and thus regarded always as a Jew even if an atheist? A Jew who converts, however, is no longer considered a Jew, I believe.

 

[Zhenia]

Meltzerboy, I know that there are many Catholics (and Orthodox Christians too) who were baptized but pick and choose what they believe, or believe nothing. But I was being asked about Jews, not them, which is why I responded only about Jews who are secular.

And yes I’m familiar with the ba’al teshuva movement, its been going on since the 1970s actually.

 

[Kaninchen]

However, there are also a sizable number of non-practicing Catholics as well as so-called cafeteria Catholics

In Western Europe religion is pretty much a minority interest altogether.

 

[aiambutasmallvo]

I hope this verse answers your question.

While there can really be lengthy reasons (tracing back history and all.) Here is what the Bible says:
For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call on him. Romans 10:12

I suggest you include reading your Bible as part of your spiritual nourishment of course with a sincere prayer for God to pour out the Holy Spirit in you to let God’s word speak to you.

AND may God be with you in your conversion to Catholicism. It’s not really a matter of conversion of religion. It is a conversion of HEART.

 

[jlhargus]

Here is what I have found in scripture:

CHANGE OF AUTHORITY OR HIERARCHY MT21:33 Hear another parable: There was a certain householder, which planted a vineyard, and hedged it round about, and digged a winepress in it, and built a tower, and let it out to husbandmen, and went into a far country: 34 And when the time of the fruit drew near, he sent his servants to the husbandmen, that they might receive the fruits of it. 35 And the husbandmen took his servants, and beat one, and killed another, and stoned another. 36 Again, he sent other servants more than the first: and they did unto them likewise. 37 But LAST OF ALL HE SENT UNTO THEM HIS SON, saying, They will reverence my son. 38 But when the husbandmen saw the son, they said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and let us seize on his inheritance. 39 And they caught him, and cast him out of the vineyard, and slew him. 40 When the lord therefore of the vineyard cometh, WHAT WILL HE DO UNTO THOSE HUSBANDMEN? 41 They say unto him, HE WILL miserably DESTROY THOSE wicked men, AND will LET OUT HIS VINEYARD UNTO OTHER HUSBANDMEN, which shall render him the fruits in their seasons. 42 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: THIS IS THE LORDS DOING, and it is marvellous in our eyes? 43 THEREFORE SAY I unto you, THE KINGDOM OF GOD SHALL BE TAKEN FROM YOU, AND GIVEN TO A NATION BRINGING FORTH THE FRUITS THEREOF. 44 And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder. 45 And WHEN THE CHIEF PRIESTS AND PHARISEES had HEARD HIS PARABLES, THEY PERCEIVED that HE SPAKE OF THEM. 46 But when THEY SOUGHT TO LAY HANDS ON HIM,THEY FEARED THE MULTITUDE, BECAUSE THEY TOOIK HIM FOR A PROPHET.

[Mich5:2 But thou, **Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting. 3 THEREFORE WILL HE GIVE THEM UP, UNTIL the time that SHE WHICH TRAVAILETH HATH BROUGHT FORTH: then THE REMNANT OF HIS BRETHREN SHALL RETURN UNTO THE CHILDREN OF ISRAEL.] Natural Israel is given up, until she, which travaleth, THE CHURCH, hath brought forth the total number of Gentiles, Rv12:1-2. Then the remnant of natural Israel shall RETURN as the children of spiritual Israel, THE CHRUCH. For a more clear translation see the New Living Translation, biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Micah%205:1-5&version=NLT

[Rms11:15 For **if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, WHAT SHALL THE RECEIVING OF THEM BE, but life from the dead? 16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and IF THE ROOT BE HOLY, SO ARE THE BRANCHES. 17 And if some of the branches be broken off, AND THOU BEING A WILD OLIVE TREE, WERT GRAFTED IN among them, AND WITH THEM **; 18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, THOU BEAREST NOT THE ROOT, but the root thee. 19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in. 20 Well; BECAUSE OF UNBELIEF THEY WERE BROKEN OFF, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: 21 For IF GOD SPARED NOT THE NATURAL BRANCES, take heed lest he also spare not thee. 22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. 23 And they also, IF THEY ABIDE NOT STILL IN UNBELIEF, SHALL BE GRAFTED IN: for GOD IS ABLE TO GRAFT THEM IN AGAIN. 24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, AND WERT GRAFTED contrary to nature INTO A GOOD OLIVE TREE.: HOW MUCH MORE SHALL THESE, which be **THE NATURAL BRANCES, BE GRAFTED INTO THEIR OWN **OLIVE TREE? 25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, UNTIL the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. 26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: 27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. 28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father’s sakes. 29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. 30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief: 31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy. 32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.]

There is only ONE olive tree whose roots are holy and we have been grafted into that ONE OLIVE TREE. When God converts all Israel, they will be grafted back into that SAME, ONE, OLIVE TREE, with the ONE people of God. In the ONE BODY AND BRIDE OF CHRIST, THE CHURCH. Continued:**

 

[jlhargus]

continued;

[Eph3:4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ) 5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit; 6 **THAT THE GENTILES SHOULD BE FELLOWHEIRS, and OF THE SAME BODY, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:]

[Eph2:11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; 12 **That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens FROM the commonwealth of ISRAEL, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: 13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. 14 For HE IS OUR PEACE, WHO HATH MADE BOTH ONE, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; 15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for TO MAKE IN HIMSELF of twain ONE NEW MAN, so making peace; 16 And that he might RECONCILE BOTH unto God IN ONE BODY by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: 17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh. 18 For through him we BOTH have access by one Spirit unto the Father. 19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but FELLOWCITIZENS with the saints, and OF THE HOUSEHOLD OF GOD; 20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; 21 In whom ALL THE BUILDING fitly framed together GROWETH UNTO AN HOLY TEMPLE IN THE LORD: 22 In whom ye also are BUILDED TOGETHER for AN HABITATION OF GOD through the Spirit.] I see NO evidence there are two people of God. When God converts all Israel they will be baptized into the ONE BODY OF CHRIST the Church.
[1Cor12:13 For **by one Spirit are we ALL BAPTIZED into ONE BODY, WHETHER we be JEWS or GENTILES , whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.] By the Spirit are ALL BAPTIZED into one BODY, the Church.

Gal3:26 For YE ARE ALL CHILDREN OF GOD BY FAITH IN CHRIST JESUS. 27 For AS MANY OF YOU AS HAVE BEEN BAPTIZED INTO CHRIST have put on Christ. 28 THERE IS NEITHER JEW NOR GREEK, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for YE ARE ALL ONE IN CHRIST JESUS. 29 And if ye be Christ’s, then are ye ABRAHAM’S SEED, and HEIRS according TO THE PROMISE.
Rms2:29

Gal6:14 But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world. 15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature. 16 And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon THE ISRAEL OF GOD/

 

[meltzerboy]

Yes you probably are very correct. I have a good friend who is a serious Orthodox Jew who tells me the non-orthodox are actually non-practicing Jews.

According to some Orthodox Jews, any Jew who is non-Orthodox is non-practicing, including Conservative Jews, Reform Jews, and Reconstructionist Jews. For other Orthodox Jews, Jews who are non-Orthodox are heretics. For still others who are Orthodox Jews, the “rabbis” of the non-Orthodox are heretics, not the congregation, who are invincibly ignorant. And finally, some Orthodox Jews simply consider the non-Orthodox as less Orthodox than they are, but do not pass judgment by calling them or their rabbis heretics. As is often the case in Judaism, there are several different opinions. I prefer the latter.

 

[Zhenia]

According to some Orthodox Jews, any Jew who is non-Orthodox is non-practicing, including Conservative Jews, Reform Jews, and Reconstructionist Jews. For other Orthodox Jews, Jews who are non-Orthodox are heretics. For still others who are Orthodox Jews, the “rabbis” of the non-Orthodox are heretics, not the congregation, who are invincibly ignorant. And finally, some Orthodox Jews simply consider the non-Orthodox as less Orthodox than they are, but do not pass judgment by calling them or their rabbis heretics. As is often the case in Judaism, there are several different opinions. I prefer the latter.

The view that nonOrthodox are simply less religious tends to be the view of Chabad. Many of the Orthodox I grew up around regard any nonreligious Jews as epikorsim, but then again I grew up in a very insular, ultraOrthodox community.

The prevailing view, I have found, amongst most Orthodox today apart from the Modern Orthodox, is the tinok shenishbah view, which is that while the nonOrthodox rabbis are knowing heretics, the people cannot be held accountable for the heresy since they are like Jewish children taken captive and raised as nonJews (they get this view from the Rambam’s Laws of Kings.)…meaning that they probably raised as Reform, etc Jews and hence, know no better. That might sound like a harsh view, but if you look at it from their point of view, its actually very compassionate.

 

[John7]

Yes they were chosen, and is still chosen by the God of Abraham Isaac and Jacob. Anything else is replacement theology.

Are you a Christian Zionist like John Hagee??

This is from Catholic website “Scripture Catholic”
article entitled ‘Zionism’ (talking about *Christian *Zionism)
scripturecatholic.com/zionism.html
here’s the summary
In summary, Zionism is an **anti-Catholic movement **that attempts to remove the Church as the fulfillment of Old Testament prophecies, and the only authoritative voice for interpreting these prophecies. By turning Scripture into a wax nose for their own political and religious fantasies, Zionists make the Jews and Israel, and not the New Testament Church, the focus of God’s divine plan. Zionism is blatantly false and has no basis in Sacred Scripture or Tradition.

do you know that
1 Peter 2:9 “…ye (Christians) are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light.”

 

[EzraJacob]

Are you a Christian Zionist like John Hagee??

This is from Catholic website “Scripture Catholic”
article entitled ‘Zionism’ (talking about *Christian *Zionism)
scripturecatholic.com/zionism.html
here’s the summary
In summary, Zionism is an **anti-Catholic movement **that attempts to remove the Church as the fulfillment of Old Testament prophecies, and the only authoritative voice for interpreting these prophecies. By turning Scripture into a wax nose for their own political and religious fantasies, Zionists make the Jews and Israel, and not the New Testament Church, the focus of God’s divine plan. Zionism is blatantly false and has no basis in Sacred Scripture or Tradition.

do you know that
1 Peter 2:9 “…ye (Christians) are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light.”

I was reading what you wrote. But got confused on this little bit;

However, prior to Christ’s earthly reign from Jerusalem, Zionists believe that Gentile Christians who are still living at this time will be secretly taken up into heaven. This will pave the way for the Jews to rule with Jesus for the millennial period. They call this secret taking of Christians up to heaven “The Rapture,” and base this belief on Paul’s letter to the Thessalonians

:

Are they talking about actual Zionist? I doubt Netanyahu thinks this

 

[trdchubi]

Are you a Christian Zionist like John Hagee??

This is from Catholic website “Scripture Catholic”
article entitled ‘Zionism’ (talking about *Christian *Zionism)
scripturecatholic.com/zionism.html
here’s the summary
In summary, Zionism is an **anti-Catholic movement **that attempts to remove the Church as the fulfillment of Old Testament prophecies, and the only authoritative voice for interpreting these prophecies. By turning Scripture into a wax nose for their own political and religious fantasies, Zionists make the Jews and Israel, and not the New Testament Church, the focus of God’s divine plan. Zionism is blatantly false and has no basis in Sacred Scripture or Tradition.

do you know that
1 Peter 2:9 “…ye (Christians) are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light.”

Statement of Faith

**In light of Nostra Aetate…

Concerning the Jewish people:

We DO:**

• affirm an unconditional love for the Jewish people, our “elder brothers in the faith.”
  oppose anti-Semitism in all its forms, including under its currently common disguise of anti-Zionism.
• call Christians to repent from past and present anti-Semitic acts, words, and attitudes.
  affirm the irrevocable and permanent nature of God’s covenant with the Jewish people and oppose the false teaching of replacement theology (supersessionism), which claims that the Church has replaced Israel as God’s chosen people.
• affirm the Church’s faith that Israel’s calling, destiny and salvation can only be accomplished in union with Jesus, Messiah of Israel and King of the Jews, who was sent first and foremost to the “lost sheep of the house of Israel” (Mat 15:24) and wept over Jerusalem’s rejection of Him (Luke 19:41), and that union with Jesus is most fully attained in the Catholic Church.
• affirm, therefore, the permanence of Church’s missionary mandate, divinely ordained by the Word of God, to propose the Gospel of salvation “to the Jew first.”
  reject, therefore, the false teaching of dual-covenant theology, which would have the Jews attain salvation through the Old Covenant and observance of the Torah, while Gentiles attain salvation through Jesus the Messiah. Although “the Torah is holy, and the commandment holy and just and good” (Rom 7:12), it remains nonetheless that “a man is not justified by the works of the Torah [law] but by faith in Jesus Christ… for by the works of the Torah no flesh shall be justified… for if righteousness comes through the Torah, then Christ died in vain” (Gal 2:16, 21).
• affirm that, since the Church is “the all-embracing means of salvation” in which alone “the fullness of the means of salvation can be obtained” (UR 3), “Church and Judaism cannot then be seen as two parallel ways of salvation and the Church must witness to Christ as the Redeemer for all” (NJJ I.7).
• affirm the need for establishing a Jewish-Catholic community where Catholic Jews will be able to live a genuinely Catholic life, in accordance with the teachings of Jesus the Messiah and of His Catholic Church, while at the same time remaining entirely faithful to the Torah and to Israel’s cultural and religious heritage. This is in accordance with the first community of Jewish Christians who were “all zealous for the Torah” (Acts 21:20) - for Jesus did not come to destroy the Law or the Prophets but to fulfill them (Mat 5:17-20).

**Concerning the land and people of Israel:

We DO:**

• believe that God’s promise of the land of Israel to the descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob was never revoked by Jesus and the New Covenant, and that this promise remains valid to this day.
• believe that the return of the Jewish people to the land of Israel in the last century bears prophetic significance, and we therefore affirm the theological plausibility of a moderate biblical Zionism.
• believe that though the modern state of Israel is in itself a secular entity, it may well be a “first step” towards the final redemption of the Jewish people.

-believe that the state of Israel has the right to defend itself against acts of terrorism carried out against it and its people; that it should, however, always exercise great caution and restraint in order to not harm innocent civilians.

• encourage and promote reconciliation, peace and justice for all of the inhabitants of the Holy Land today.
• call all inhabitants of Israel, Israelis and Palestinians, to repent and turn away from the grave evils that currently afflict Israeli and Palestinian society such as violence and hatred, corruption and dishonesty, discrimination and injustice, promiscuity, prostitution, pornography, abortion, and the increasing normalization of homosexuality.
• Call all inhabitants of Israel, Israelis and Palestinians, Jews, Christians and Muslims, to conversion to the Gospel of Jesus the Messiah, the prince of peace, through whom is found forgiveness, reconciliation with God and with one another, and eternal life.

-Call all Christians in the Holy Land to greater faithfulness and unity in living and sharing the gospel of Jesus the Messiah.

 

[trdchubi]

Are you a Christian Zionist like John Hagee??

This is from Catholic website “Scripture Catholic”
article entitled ‘Zionism’ (talking about *Christian *Zionism)
scripturecatholic.com/zionism.html
here’s the summary
In summary, Zionism is an **anti-Catholic movement **that attempts to remove the Church as the fulfillment of Old Testament prophecies, and the only authoritative voice for interpreting these prophecies. By turning Scripture into a wax nose for their own political and religious fantasies, Zionists make the Jews and Israel, and not the New Testament Church, the focus of God’s divine plan. Zionism is blatantly false and has no basis in Sacred Scripture or Tradition.

do you know that
1 Peter 2:9 “…ye (Christians) are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light.”

I would not affiliate myself with an extreme anti catholic person who say this things:

“No difference between Catholics and Muslims in terms of killing Jews”

“Crusades were about killing Jews by Catholics”

“Hitler and The Catholic Church were one”

“Catholic Church stole money from Jews”

Lastly, I would not even subcribed to a person who promotes GEOCENTRISM

 

[meltzerboy]

Are you a Christian Zionist like John Hagee??

This is from Catholic website “Scripture Catholic”
article entitled ‘Zionism’ (talking about *Christian *Zionism)
scripturecatholic.com/zionism.html
here’s the summary
In summary, Zionism is an **anti-Catholic movement **that attempts to remove the Church as the fulfillment of Old Testament prophecies, and the only authoritative voice for interpreting these prophecies. By turning Scripture into a wax nose for their own political and religious fantasies, Zionists make the Jews and Israel, and not the New Testament Church, the focus of God’s divine plan. Zionism is blatantly false and has no basis in Sacred Scripture or Tradition.

do you know that
1 Peter 2:9 “…ye (Christians) are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light.”

Please differentiate between Christian Zionism and Zionism. The former, as the link indicates, is made up of Christian Fundamentalists who support Israel, but it is not composed of Jews. It may also be true that some Jewish Zionists appreciate the support from these Christians, while recognizing that they don’t necessarily share each other’s views or goals. Nonetheless, Jews who are Zionists–whether secular, Reform, or Orthodox–are not an anti-Catholic movement, and I would also like to investigate other sources before stating that Fundamentalist Christian Zionists are an anti-Catholic movement.

 

[EzraJacob]

Please differentiate between Christian Zionism and Zionism. The former, as the link indicates, is made up of Christian Fundamentalists who support Israel, but it is not composed of Jews. It may also be true that some Jewish Zionists appreciate the support from these Christians, while recognizing that they don’t necessarily share each other’s views or goals. Nonetheless, Jews who are Zionists–whether secular, Reform, or Orthodox–are not an anti-Catholic movement, and I would also like to investigate other sources before stating that Fundamentalist Christian Zionists are an anti-Catholic movement.

What I bolded, I would like to comment on by saying, you are kind of wrong. There are anti-Christian sentiments. Not as much as hatred, but there are incidents of ultra orthodox vandalising Churches and hating on Christians. There are some people like that in every group of people. Alot of the Ultra-Orthodox Zionist see Israel as being for Jews and Jews only. That they are not fulfilling Gods commandments by allowing non-Jews worship there.

Zionism in its self is a tough thing. Its hard to pick sides, especially knowing that the Latin Patriarchte has spoken on the oppresion the Palestinians Catholics are under, from Israel.

 

[meltzerboy]

What I bolded, I would like to comment on by saying, you are kind of wrong. There are anti-Christian sentiments. Not as much as hatred, but there are incidents of ultra orthodox vandalising Churches and hating on Christians. There are some people like that in every group of people. Alot of the Ultra-Orthodox Zionist see Israel as being for Jews and Jews only. That they are not fulfilling Gods commandments by allowing non-Jews worship there.

Zionism in its self is a tough thing. Its hard to pick sides, especially knowing that the Latin Patriarchte has spoken on the oppresion the Palestinians Catholics are under, from Israel.

Two points: first, I said they are not an anti-Catholic movement; I was not referring to isolated incidents. Second, can you provide evidence that Orthodox Jewish Zionists have vandalized Catholic Churches?

 

[EzraJacob]

Two points: first, I said they are not an anti-Catholic movement;

Okay.

I was not referring to isolated incidents. Second, can you provide evidence that Orthodox Jewish Zionists have vandalized Catholic Churches?

Sure. jpost.com/Magazine/Article.aspx?id=161501

I can not find an exact article that reported a Church being vandalized.

 

[Zhenia]

Are you a Christian Zionist like John Hagee??

This is from Catholic website “Scripture Catholic”
article entitled ‘Zionism’ (talking about *Christian *Zionism)
scripturecatholic.com/zionism.html
here’s the summary
In summary, Zionism is an **anti-Catholic movement **that attempts to remove the Church as the fulfillment of Old Testament prophecies, and the only authoritative voice for interpreting these prophecies. By turning Scripture into a wax nose for their own political and religious fantasies, Zionists make the Jews and Israel, and not the New Testament Church, the focus of God’s divine plan. Zionism is blatantly false and has no basis in Sacred Scripture or Tradition.

do you know that
1 Peter 2:9 “…ye (Christians) are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light.”

Historically, both the Roman Catholic and Orthodox Churches do not recognize the zionist state, since both churches regard the Church as the “new Israel”, as I also do.

 

[Zhenia]

What I bolded, I would like to comment on by saying, you are kind of wrong. There are anti-Christian sentiments. Not as much as hatred, but there are incidents of ultra orthodox vandalising Churches and hating on Christians. There are some people like that in every group of people. Alot of the Ultra-Orthodox Zionist see Israel as being for Jews and Jews only. That they are not fulfilling Gods commandments by allowing non-Jews worship there.

Zionism in its self is a tough thing. Its hard to pick sides, especially knowing that the Latin Patriarchte has spoken on the oppresion the Palestinians Catholics are under, from Israel.

This is true. I have met Orthodox Christian and Roman Catholic priests and nuns from Jerusalem who tell me they are often spat upon by very orthodox Jews living in Jerusalem. When I as a Jewish Christian apologize to them for that, they often respond that its OK because they are used to it. No one should have to be “used to” that sort of behavior, and its actions like that that make people despise Jews, I have to be honest with you. Maybe not from genuine Christians, who would of course forgive such actions. But others who learn of it (the Israeli media has covered it, to their credit.)

I also want to point out, in regard to zionism, not all Jews are zionists. I was not a zionist when I was a religious Jew, and most Chasidim apart from Lubavitch are not zionists. Some, like Satmar and Toldos Aharon, are actively anti-zionist: jewsagainstzionism.com