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Christian_Unity
Guest
Is adoption into the family of God based on being united to Christ through faith? If that’s true, how can Muslims be your spiritual brothers?
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SteveVH
Guest
Before you take such a position you should know what our Church actually teaches.
One cannot reject what one does not know. What do you say of the Muslim man or woman who has been raised within the falsehood of Islam all of his or her life and has never received the truth about Jesus? One principle of our Church is that we believe in a just and merciful God. Remember, Jesus died for the Muslims as much as he died for you and is not restricted to the ordinary means of salvation.
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SteveVH
Guest
Adoption into the family of God happens through Baptism. Only God knows whether or not a person would accept Baptism had he known the truth. Only God knows our hearts and only God is the judge.
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J_the_Centrist
Guest
Hey aidanbradypop, he was referring to a post I posted above, feel free to check it out. Anyway, as a historian who has aspirations of being a professor, as well as my personal experiences of living with Muslims, I have no choice but to agree. The example I provided of Jesus and the woman at the well apparently wasn’t good enough, perhaps I should have used the centurion instead. I am new to this site and based on some of your previous posts I think I found someone I like already. Pax et BonumThis thread never asked if they were wrong, but whether or not if we believe in the same God. The Church has stated a clear YES so therefore I am not confused. Thanks for showing concern though.
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aidanbradypop
Guest
Welcome to the forum. I have not been here long but I enjoy it as well! I studied Islam for a number of years. I am a Cultural Anthropologist and their culture really is an interest of mine.
I just wanted to keep him on topic is all
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dzheremi
Guest
Yeah, I’ve read the Catechism already (particularly closely regarding this issue). Anything else you have in mind?
And yet, as I and others in this thread have pointed out, that’s exactly what happens in the case of Islam. It is not so much “ignorance” on their part, as though no Muslim has ever heard of Christianity outside of the Qur’anic distortion of it, but actually a doctrinal stance on their part. Lam yalid w lam yulad, remember? The god of Islam hates our religion and thinks it polytheism, so maybe you should take it up with…whatever that is, that you claim to be the same God as the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit.
What should we say of anyone in such a position? Nothing less than the words of Christ, eternal kalimatullah Himself, as recorded in the Gospel according to our teacher St. John: “But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for the Father is seeking such to worship Him. God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.” It is impossible to come to the Father but through Christ, so the implications of this passage are clear. He who has ears, let him hear.
Indeed, His mercy endures forever.
Indeed (again), but which is better: To know Christ in this life and depend on His mercy, or to depend on the mercy of the One you have spent your life blaspheming against, as a matter of doctrinal principle? After death there is no chance, so it is best to do what you can now to enter into the true faith of God, which is the worship of the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Better to be embraced by Christ as a worker of the eleventh hour than damned by (via) Muhammad as a worker of iniquity who fought against what God has commanded in the Holy Scriptures and the other witnesses of the true faith, our Fathers and Masters the Apostles and their disciples. I would never restrict the action of the Holy Spirit or the salvation of Christ to one people. It is non-Christian doctrines that do that themselves, by denying that truth in the first place. Don’t you ever wonder why the one unforgivable sin, according to Scripture, is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit? Because you cannot be saved if you have shut off the means which God has established that you come to the truth. And as our teacher St. Paul wrote to the Corinthians, no one can say Jesus Christ is Lord but by the Holy Spirit.
The heretic is, as the Fathers have said, self-condemned in this way. We do not say that Christ cannot work as He wishes or that anyone may not be brought to true faith. But they have to choose it, and they’re not going to if it is constantly reinforced by well-meaning but wrong and naive polemics that they can simply stay Muslims/Jews/whatevers because God is a God of love and mercy. Frankly, I thought that this was one of the ideas that Catholics were most against, having been articulated by various Protestant reformers. Remember Martin Luther’s quote on this idea? From wikiquote: “Be a sinner, and let your sins be strong (sin boldly), but let your trust in Christ be stronger, and rejoice in Christ who is the victor over sin, death, and the world.” I will assume that you think this an incorrect application of the principle you have outlined to try to get me to back away from the truth in such bold terms. So I can’t help but wonder: If Luther’s idea of ‘sinning boldly’ is predicated on trust in Christ as the victor over sin, death, and the world, then how much more can this idea not apply to Muslims, or others who do not believe that Christ is the victor over sin, death, and the world in the first place? So they do not get to deny Christ, which after all is as bold a sin as anyone can commit.
Do not tempt God. We hope in His mercy, all the while trembling before the almighty seat of His judgment.
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Gricken
Guest
Calling people heretics doesn’t make them followers. Telling them they blaspheme does not make them convert. Instead of saying how wrong they are. We should focus on unity, compassion, and education. It reflects poorly on all of us when you call those who should be our brothers in arms (so to speak) against the forces of secularization by names like heretic.
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aidanbradypop
Guest
Well said. Christ brought us into His Church with an act of complete love. We are called to His Church out of love even today.
In the end, The Holy Spirit is the converter. If we live as Christ has asked of us, I love and example will shine on them as well!
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dzheremi
Guest
So you say. But there are things that are more important than modern day geo-politics. I am concerned with the right faith, not simply any faith at all vs. no faith. Remember that the pagan emperors of the past who so oppressed our people all had faith in their gods, and many of our martyr-saints died for refusing to participate in the Roman civic religion.
Everyone is my brother, except for those who insist that they not be so (and that is their decision, not mine). But even a brother can believe in wrong things. They’re not mutually exclusive concepts. So what is our duty, in fidelity to the Christian faith, in those cases? Certainly not to leave him to his own devices. Our life and our death are with our brother. We are to pick him up if he falls, be it into heresy or sin or anything else.
“For if they fall, one will lift up his companion.
But woe to him who is alone when he falls,
For he has no one to help him up.
Again, if two lie down together, they will keep warm;
But how can one be warm alone?
Though one may be overpowered by another, two can withstand him.
And a threefold cord is not quickly broken.”
(An aside: Perhaps this is why the author of the Qur’an enjoined his followers not to take Christians or Jews as companions? Hmm. It does say that this would dilute their faith.)
Everyone is my brother, except for those who insist that they not be so (and that is their decision, not mine). But even a brother can believe in wrong things. They’re not mutually exclusive concepts. So what is our duty, in fidelity to the Christian faith, in those cases? Certainly not to leave him to his own devices. Our life and our death are with our brother. We are to pick him up if he falls, be it into heresy or sin or anything else.
“For if they fall, one will lift up his companion.
But woe to him who is alone when he falls,
For he has no one to help him up.
Again, if two lie down together, they will keep warm;
But how can one be warm alone?
Though one may be overpowered by another, two can withstand him.
And a threefold cord is not quickly broken.”
(An aside: Perhaps this is why the author of the Qur’an enjoined his followers not to take Christians or Jews as companions? Hmm. It does say that this would dilute their faith.)
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Gricken
Guest
I did not say we do not try and bring them to truth. But I said to do it with compassion, love, and understanding. And calling somebody a heretic doesn’t do much to endear them to our faith. We are called to be an example to others. We do this by showing love. More converts are won through compassion than through arguments. You can respect what somebody believes without leaving them to continue to believe untruths.
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SteveVH
Guest
If you have read the Catechism, particulary closely regarding this issue, you will find that the Church says this:
“The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in teh first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on teh last day.”
(CCC par 841)
The God of Islam is the God of Abraham (see above) and therefore, obviously, does not hate our religion. Again, they have been told a lie. One who has been taught the truth about Christianity and instead would embrace Islam is in great spiritual danger. The same cannot be said for those who do not know who they worship.
And what does it mean to come to the Father through Christ? Is not Christ present wherever the Father is present? Though they are surely not aware of it, it is, indeed, Christ who draws them to the Father whom they worship. As the Church tells us: “Thus, the Church considers all goodness and truth found in those religions as a preparation for the Gospel and given by him who enlightens all men that they may at length have life.”
It is better to know Christ. No one is saying that we shouldn’t continue to spread the Gospel to the Muslims. What do you say of a fourteen year old Muslim boy who has been raised in a remote village in the mountains of Pakistan and who sincerely prays and worships the one God the way he has been taught, who gives alms to the poor, who is kind and generous to all around him, yet has never heard about Christ except through the false doctrine of Islam? God has written his laws upon our hearts. Sometimes those are the only laws one can go by. Will God condemn this boy because the Gospel had not yet reached him?
You would be speaking of the ordinary means of salvation. One cannot be guilty of blasphemy against the Holy Spirit unless one knowingly rejects God’s grace. This does not apply to those, who through no fault of their own, have been prevented from knowing God as revealed through Jesus Christ.
Muslims are not heretics. You have to be a Christian to be a heretic.
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SteveVH
Guest
The “Reformers” knew and rejected the truth of the Catholic Church. That is a completley different scenario. We cannot even apply this principle to modern day non-Catholic Christians who have never been taught the truth about the Catholic Church and therefore have nothing against which they protest. They have simply been mislead by earlier generations of true “Protestants”.
Once again, you cannot compare any of the so-called “reformers” to the Muslim position. They knew perfectly well the Catholic faith and rejected it. Modern day Muslims have never known the Catholic faith therefore they cannot reject it.
Just for clarification, I think we can stipulate that we both believe that Islam is a false religion. One of its greatest sins is that it has mislead billions of people over the centuries. I do not take the position that it doesn’t matter what one believes because we have a just and merciful God. But when speaking the salvation of individual Muslims, we can have hope in that just and merciful God for their salvation outside of the ordinary means.
God bless.
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IgnatianPhilo
Guest
We are obviously going to differ in regaurds to our interpretation of the Old testament. Needless to say Im not an expert in attempting to argue this position so I will not attempt it.Please explain this to me, I’m always curious about other peoples opinion
Where has a trinitarian G-d been present all throughout history? If this was the case there would be references to be found in the Torah, no? Would you kindly point them out to me?
If anything it’s the other way around. Christians found a new G-d (as Paul points out in his letters to the Hebrews), as they now considered Christ to be G-d also. Most Jews, however, stuck and continue to stick to their scriptures as G-d had commanded them to do. The Torah’s much older than the idea of a trinitarian G-d. I believe the idea came up a couple of centuries later.
But please explain to me your thought process in regards to your claim that the trinitarian G-d had always been present throughout history, as I’m afraid I might have missed something.
But I don’t rescind my position or take it back, Christ is our standard and he enlightens the Old testament.
meltzerboy
New member
Is yours the dominant view held by Orthodox Christians as opposed to (Roman) Catholics?
meltzerboy
New member
Katrin, I believe Ignatian means that by carefully re-interpreting the Hebrew Bible, Christian scholars can find verses that speak of G-d as a Triune G-d, not explicitly naming G-d as such since Jesus in his human form did not appear yet, but rather by means of the language used. Of course, Jewish scholars have different interpretations of this language.Please explain this to me, I’m always curious about other peoples opinion
Where has a trinitarian G-d been present all throughout history? If this was the case there would be references to be found in the Torah, no? Would you kindly point them out to me?
If anything it’s the other way around. Christians found a new G-d (as Paul points out in his letters to the Hebrews), as they now considered Christ to be G-d also. Most Jews, however, stuck and continue to stick to their scriptures as G-d had commanded them to do. The Torah’s much older than the idea of a trinitarian G-d. I believe the idea came up a couple of centuries later.
But please explain to me your thought process in regards to your claim that the trinitarian G-d had always been present throughout history, as I’m afraid I might have missed something.
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dzheremi
Guest
I don’t think you’ll find a single dominant view on issues like this one among Orthodox Christians. We don’t generally have “official” positions (for lack of a better way to put it) on what happens outside of our churches. What I am giving is my own opinion, which has certainly been shaped by my interaction with Orthodox (and other) Christians, but I would not want to pawn it off on anyone else…particularly given how unpopular it is on this particular forum.
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J_the_Centrist
Guest
Heretics? Blaspheme? Those are sooooooooooooooooo sixteenth century.
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doormouse73
Guest
taking into account that what was preached in madina then to mecca with verses abrogated,to the extent of killing the infidels and jews,condoning killing for the sake of God.when God came in the incarnate 650 years earlier,to tell us not to do this but love even your enemy… do you think that God has changed his mind? or it is the same God?
because it was Angel Gabriel who told him supposedly,Gods messenger.
they believe in a creator.but not the same God in my eyes.
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Luke_L
Guest
“I love you when you bow in your mosque, pray in your church or kneel in your temple, for you and I share one religion, that of the soul…” -Gibran Khalil Gibran
We all worship the same God. Every belief leads eventually to the same road. However, some roads are much much longer and bumpier than others. I believe that Christianity is the easiest and shortest route to it.
We all worship the same God. Every belief leads eventually to the same road. However, some roads are much much longer and bumpier than others. I believe that Christianity is the easiest and shortest route to it.
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dzheremi
Guest
We’re just going to have to disagree on this one, my friend. I know that the CCC is authoritative and true in your eyes, but for as much as I find it very agreeable to the Orthodox faith in some respects, this is one instance in which I must disagree with it, and you by extension.
I agree with this entirely. The question of whether or not Muslims (or anyone else) know who they worship is something else, however. I take Muslims at their word when they say that they believe that Jesus is not the Son of God (it is beneath God that He should have a son, they say), that the Trinity is some sneaky form of polytheism, or whatever else they say as regards their own theology and how they view their religion as relating to others’. I don’t agree with it, of course, and I do not think it is so off base to say that they have been taught a lie…I suppose I just take it one step further and say if what they know of God is a lie, and they worship according to that knowledge, then…well, it does not look good for Islam’s recension of Allah then, does it?
It depends on what you mean by “present”. I believe there is nothing outside of God’s purview and ultimate control, but that this does not translate into any idea that He should bless any particular assembly. Christ is certainly present as we commit terrible sins, but that does not mean that he has “led” us to them, to answer another part of your post. I do not believe the Holy Spirit leads some men to embrace Christ, and others to reject Him. Religious pluralism is a reality which is allowed through the great love of God that He should make man to freely worship Him. That some use that freedom to worship something else (whether they call themselves Muslim, Christian, Jew, Buddhist, whatever)…well, it wouldn’t be a free choice otherwise, would it?
A charitable interpretation of this could read it as a restatement of Justin Martyr’s idea of the “spermatikos Logos”, namely, that there is a seed of the Divine in all belief systems, no matter how ultimately wrong they are. I agree with this idea. Not everything that a non-Christian religion teaches is false, and indeed God is the source of all truth. This is something vastly different than saying that all religions worship the same God (or even that the three listed religions worship the same God). That’s the idea that I am against. Christ is utterly unique (as per HG Bishop Suriel’s talk that I linked earlier), and He IS God. No amount of commonality we may share with Jews, Muslims, Hindus, or whoever will ever change that fact, and that is the fact that really matters (as it is only by Christ that anyone gains eternal life).
I already answered this question. Come to the worship of the true God in spirit and in truth. Come out of Islam, come out of Judaism, come out of all things.
No. But you asked me what I would say, not what God would do. It is not for me to know how God judges others. I have more than enough of my own sins to keep my preoccupied with prayer and fasting for the rest of my life. And probably the rest of the 14 year old boy’s life, too. I can’t remember which, but one of the Desert Fathers once said that if he truly knew the extent of his own sin, there would not be enough men in all of the desert monasteries to weep over them. That’s life. May God have mercy on us all.
I actually agree, and was using the term generally. However, it bears repeating that plenty of early Christian apologetic material addressing Islam felt that it was exactly that. Including the writings of some people considered saints in certain parts of your communion, too, such as St. John of Damascus. You should read what he wrote about Islam sometime. It might be an eye-opener for you.
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