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Robin_des_Bois
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The OT doesn’t teach to love your enemy.
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SteveVH
Guest
You are certainly free to do so.
Nor do I.
Well, not all of what they believe is a lie. They believe that there is only one God and they profess a belief in the God of Abraham. They give alms to the poor. We must recognize the truth in this religion as well as the error.
A free choice cannot be made unless one has the knowledge to make a choice. A Muslim in a remote village has not heard the truth about Jesus. Hoe then can he make a choice to accept or reject him?
I don’t think anyone has said that all religions worship the same God and there is a vast difference between monotheistic religions and others.
Just to test your theory. What do you say of the tribe in the darkest reaches of the Amazon who has never seen another human being outside of his own people? Is God going to say to him “Sorry the missionaries didn’t make it to you before you died. You never heard of Jesus Christ and he is the only way you can get here. Depart from me.”?
It seems to me that this person’s salvation is dependent upon man finding him to give him the Gospel, is it not?
That’s great. And if they have not received the true Gospel, to what or whom are they to turn? How do you turn to something of which you have never heard?
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J_the_Centrist
Guest
Whether anyone here wants to admit it or not the Muslims are our spiritual brethren. I explained why this is in previous posts and YES they do believe in the same God we do. It seems to me that most of the opposition to this idea comes from our Orthodox brothers and sisters. Perhaps this is understandable considering that the Orthodox have and still do suffer under many Muslim dominated countries. Those brothers and sisters are in my prayers. Having been to Egypt before it became so unstable there (2009) I visited and prayed in two Orthodox churches in Cairo, visiting Muslim family members (my family are Muslim by marriage not blood, but have been in my family for two decades). I don’t know how they fare there now (the Egyptian Orthodox), but they are in my prayers and thoughts as they should be in those of us all. Being of Irish Catholic decent many of these arguments reflect much of those spewed against us by the Anglicans or Baptists (no disrespect to Anglicans or Baptists, I love their churches). We made the same condemnations in return and what did anyone get out of it?
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J_the_Centrist
Guest
I cannot seem to understand why it is such a “stumbling block.” For me personally I have read the Quran and experienced nothing but love from Muslims my whole life, in my family. Even if the Church did not teach this my conscience would demand it. And this might be inappropriate for some on this forum, but I will quote from Martin Luther. “To go against conscience is neither right nor safe.” Pax et Bonum
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dzheremi
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Yeah. We agree on this already (recall my last post, re: Justin Martyr).
Only one God…and the eternal and uncreated Qur’an (this is mainstream Sunni belief; see, for instance, here). So it is an odd sort of monotheism, from a Christian perspective. We call He who is eternal and uncreated God.
Indeed they do, as do many. By this definition, we might as well include many groups who as specifically not included in traditional Christian understandings of this topic, such as the Mormons, the Black Israelites, etc.
As do people of all religions and no religion.
Yeah. And we do. But having some true beliefs or good conduct does not mean that you are worshiping God. Worshiping God means you are worshiping God. I would wager to guess that in most Western societies or other societies based on any form of monotheism, even those who do not believe in anything at all, if pressed, would say that God (hypothetically) is one. Ultimately, I will leave the last word to the scriptures, such as is found in James 2:19: “You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble!”
If you listened to the link I posted a while ago to the interview with Fr. Reardon against popular monotheism, he makes the case (and I think it is a good one) that the claim to oneness on the part of God in the Old Testament was less about being able to claim a God of correct number, and more an exclusive theological claim on the part of God, as man did not come to belief in one God by reasoning his way to it, or in any other fashion than by direct revelation of God Himself. So while monotheism is correct, from all three religions’ points of view, I do not think it is a good criterion by itself by which to judge any particular religion. Even the demons believe, but who would praise them on that account? It is not merely a matter of number. It is a matter of cooperation with God.
This is an interesting idea. I do not think I trust the intellect as you seem to in making this statement. I have heard (though I have not found exactly the passages in question) that at least some of the Fathers argued that Adam was to be given the knowledge of good and evil, but was not ready for it (and, of course, that plan was no longer viable once he and Eve decided to try to take it for themselves, under the influence of the serpent). In such a reading of Genesis, it seems that the relationship of Adam and Eve with the Lord was perfect in terms of its innocence, but rather primitive in terms of the knowledge of the creation concerning the creator. Adam and Eve were really as babies, if you will. It’s a fascinating idea to me (intellectually), as it aligns with various sayings of the Savior regarding the necessity that we have the faith of little children. Knowledge does not seem to play into this, directly. I hope we can agree that knowledge and faith are not the same thing.
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dzheremi
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There are many recorded instances of Christ appearing to such people, but anyway…do we say that a person must have perfect knowledge in order to practice the Christian faith? When I write about Islam being built upon a denial of Christ’s divinity and the reality of the Holy Trinity, I am not saying anything about any individual Muslim’s invention…after all, that’s the point of highlighting that this is a doctrinal point in Islam, rather than a case of mass ignorance or whatever the alternative explanation would say. Is the individual Muslim (or Jew, or Hindu, or whatever) responsible for what passes for orthodox or mainstream belief in his religion? Of course not. Such things are not decided on an individual basis, in any religion. Nonetheless, they remain, and they are things to be worked through so as to be discarded when they keep a person from embracing the true faith, not rationalized around because the person is in X or Y circumstance. St. Peter was converted by a miraculous vision on the road to Damascus, St. Thomas strengthened by placing his fingers in Christ’s side, etc. It takes all kinds. The take point is that Christ does not leave any in ignorance. The doors of the Church are wide open, and we admit all who seek Him with a sincere heart. If someone remains ignorant, we trust them to the mercy of God (same as anyone, really, regardless of knowledge). The main point is that this is not an out…this is a beginning, and God willing not an end. After all, plenty of Orthodox thinkers have put forth the idea that nobody is born into the faith, and in that way we all have to take possession of it so as to make it our own…it’s just a question of what road you take to get there…for someone born into a practicing Christian family, they have an advantage over some villager in the middle of nowhere, far away from anywhere he could learn the faith. But God can save any who come to Him. I myself moved some 1200 miles away from home to a strange city where I knew no one at all, in a place I had never been before, and God blessed me by opening His Church to me and giving me a wonderful Church family (of people who sometimes drive me nuts, but hey…bear with one another in love, right?
), and accepting me even in my weakness and ignorance. Some people stay in the village with what they know, some people seek all their lives, some people sell all they have and go into the desert to live a life of prayer. May God bless them all.What theory? Christ being God is not a theory at all.
Why do you keep asking me the same question over and over again? Have I not answered this in several forms by now? And asking me what God will do, at that. You seem to think that I’m trying to speak for Him. I’m not. What God will do is what God will do. I pray that He will be merciful with such a person, as I pray that He will be merciful in dealing with all of us.
There are two ways to take this question: Yes, it is, in accordance with the Great Commission to go forth and preach the Gospel to the ends of the earth. Also, however, no it isn’t, as the example of Pentecost is the Holy Spirit descending upon the people and enlightening and transforming them directly. Of course, the real answer is “both”, but that doesn’t really fit into the question as asked.
What does a man need to be saved? Abba Arsenius, one of our holy Roman fathers among the early desert monastics, asked this same question of God directly, and was told to flee from men. Quite different than what you would expect if man’s salvation were dependent upon others, right? And yet also St. Antony tells us that our life and death are with our brother. It is not an either-or situation. It is a matter of cooperation with God, as I believe I have written previously. Can a man, living in complete isolation, be guided by God and attain salvation? I would think so. Nothing is impossible with God, after all. But in the context of this thread, that is not about hypothetical hermits or Amazonian villagers or what have you, we are dealing with people who already have some preconceived religious ideas of what is right. And some of those ideas are, well…wrong.
Ask and it shall be given to you.
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John_Paul_Jones
Guest
I don’t if you have notice he said “god of islam” but that paragraph in the CCC makes no mention of islam or allah. So he is making this claim about paragraph in the CCC says that “the god of islam is the God of Abraham.” But where does it say that? He really didn’t refute what you said.
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GaryTaylor
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Still One God. Regardless how one understands this.
“In this world radical secularism stands on one side, and the question of God in His various forms stands on the other. Of course the respective identity of the various religions must continue to exist. We cannot dissolve ourselves into one another. On the other hand we must try to understand one another” PG 100- Pope Benedict, Light of the World, on Islam.
Dialogue has to continue with those capable.
“In this world radical secularism stands on one side, and the question of God in His various forms stands on the other. Of course the respective identity of the various religions must continue to exist. We cannot dissolve ourselves into one another. On the other hand we must try to understand one another” PG 100- Pope Benedict, Light of the World, on Islam.
Dialogue has to continue with those capable.
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doormouse73
Guest
then if you have read the O T.then go on to read the New Testament and find out why God came to stop all the man made rituals and laws… fulfil the truth in the prophets…
you will find that it has been fashionably suited in islam from the O T. to do the non God thing and do the im playing God/he told me to say/do this, act in there.
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aidanbradypop
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Gary I think this is the key issue here most misunderstand and thank you for pointing it out.
It does not matter how we, as humans, view God because God never changes. If we look at all the Christian denominations out there and include LDS, Jews and Muslims…we all view God in a certain way depending on what doctrines we believe in. However, God does not change depending on our doctrines or beliefs in him. The Church understands that and has stated as much. I am sure as a Catholic that my view of God is slightly different than that of a fellow Christian, but that does not mean we believe in a different God.
The same goes with a Muslim or Jew. Yes they do not believe in the Holy Trinity, but that does not take away their belief in God. God is fair and just and we will all be judge accordingly.
Thanks again Gary for pointing that out.
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Razanir
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Reposting this question: What about Jehovah’s Witnesses? I understand that we do NOT say Mormons worship the same god because of their borderline polytheistic theology, but what about JWs? They aren’t Trinitarian, but I also don’t know of any polytheism
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doormouse73
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then what about the masons/freemasons,they believe in the grand design/creator.
are they said in the same breath as these religions?
because the catholic Church says that they are not.what would be the difference with them?
meltzerboy
New member
You should realize that those man-made rituals, as you call them, were part of the Torah/Pentateuch in the Hebrew Bible. They were given to Moses by G-d and they were practiced by Jesus. The Torah elaborates upon each of the Ten Commandments, which I’m sure you wouldn’t consider to be man-made.
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aidanbradypop
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Freemasonry is incompatible with the Catholic faith. Freemasonry teaches a naturalistic religion that espouses indifferentism, the position that a person can be equally pleasing to God while remaining in any religion.
Masonry is a parallel religion to Christianity. The states, “Freemasonry displays all the elements of religion, and as such it becomes a rival to the religion of the Gospel. It includes temples and altars, prayers, a moral code, worship, vestments, feast days, the promise of reward and punishment in the afterlife, a hierarchy, and initiative and burial rites”
Masonry is also a secret society. Its initiates subscribe to secret blood oaths that are contrary to Christian morals. The prospective Mason swears that if he ever reveals the secrets of Masonry—secrets which are trivial and already well-known—he wills to be subject to self-mutilation or to gruesome execution. (Most Masons, admittedly, never would dream of carrying out these punishments on themselves or on an errant member).
Historically, one of Masonry’s primary objectives has been the destruction of the Catholic Church; this is especially true of Freemasonry as it has existed in certain European countries. In the United States, Freemasonry is often little more than a social club, but it still espouses a naturalistic religion that contradicts orthodox Christianity. (Those interested in joining a men’s club should consider the Knights of Columbus instead.)
The Church has imposed the penalty of excommunication on Catholics who become Freemasons. The penalty of excommunication for joining the Masonic Lodge was explicit in the 1917 code of canon law (canon 2335), and it is implicit in the 1983 code (canon 1374).
meltzerboy
New member
Not entirely true. It says in the Hebrew Bible that we are not to rejoice when our enemy falls. This may not exactly be the same as loving our enemy, but it does stress the fact that even our enemy is a child of G-d and worthy of respect and dignity as a human being.
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aidanbradypop
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Jeremiah spoke on this so very well.
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scipio337
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I know this is the official position of the Church, but I wonder how much theological study has gone into the topic (versus a politically expedient response).
Allah has 99 names, or “attributes”. YHWH is not one of them. “Allah” is more of a title than it is a personal name. In Judaism, the “name” is considered much different:
jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Judaism/name.html
Christians too have a reverence for “the name” (See Lord’s prayer, “Hallowed be thy Name”). I don’t think Islam carries the same signifigance, and wonder if they are indeed the “same”.
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aidanbradypop
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I’m sure more theological thought has gone into from the Church than you and I could ever accomplish.
In Sacred Scripture, God had many names…Elohim…El…etc etc. YHWH means “he causes to be” or “he creates” or “I AM” and Allah means “the God” or “the deity.” Since Muslims and Jews believe that God is the creator then would not AB=C if AC=B?
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GaryTaylor
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The free masons are in the Christian Church’s in the states. Southern Baptist for example. The CCC defines the communities such as. They claim they are not a Church like ours we agree.
The JWs believe Christ was the first “created”, and their is only one “true” God.
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doormouse73
Guest
Historicaly you say,the scottish masonary tried to eliminate the Catholic Church in Mexico (Cristiada) only 90 years ago,1920s.
then you say this…
how can this be?
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