Jews--Christians--Muslims...same God?

[dzheremi]

Indeed. My point is not to say anything about the truth or falsehood of any part of the CCC, or to give any Catholic any reason to disagree with it. I merely mean to describe that there is a basis for disagreeing with the idea contained in CCC 841 with reference to the Islamic religion and its own claims, separate from whatever the CCC may say about Muslims.

In other words, the more you listen to Muslims from their own sources and take them as accurately representing their own beliefs, the more reason there is to disagree with this idea without completely throwing out the CCC. So your “all or nothing” approach is not necessarily wrong with regard to fidelity to the Roman Catholic religion, but it does do a certain amount of violence to both the Islamic and Christian belief systems once you recognize that they are mutually exclusive in their claims.

 

[aidanbradypop]

841 The Church’s relationship with the Muslims. “The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day.”

first of all it says these profess to hold the faith of Abraham…

not the Church says so …

i agree that they adore one God like the Christians and Jews…

but he is not merciful at all unless you are a muslim… non muslims go to hell.

hence the mankind’s judgement on the last days… a separation of muslims and non muslims.

is this the same God??

… it seams vague to me,very vague…

Look at it like this…if you ask a Southern Baptist if Catholics are going to heave…their answer will be a swift NO…if you ask a Southern Baptist if Jew or Muslim will go to heaven…their answer will be NO…To a Southern Baptist, God is only merciful to those who believe in Christ and accept him for their salvation. According to them, if someone in Africa dies and did not accept Christ…they go to hell even if they never knew who Christ was. Now do you believe that? Southern Baptist are Christians and believe in the Son of God.

 

[aidanbradypop]

Indeed. My point is not to say anything about the truth or falsehood of any part of the CCC, or to give any Catholic any reason to disagree with it. I merely mean to describe that there is a basis for disagreeing with the idea contained in CCC 841 with reference to the Islamic religion and its own claims, separate from whatever the CCC may say about Muslims.

In other words, the more you listen to Muslims from their own sources and take them as accurately representing their own beliefs, the more reason there is to disagree with this idea without completely throwing out the CCC. So your “all or nothing” approach is not necessarily wrong with regard to fidelity to the Roman Catholic religion, but it does do a certain amount of violence to both the Islamic and Christian belief systems once you recognize that they are mutually exclusive in their claims.

like i stated before, a Christian can believe in God and have a totally different view of Him than another Christian. God is still God. It does not matter how our sinful nature changes Him, He is still God. It does not matter how the Islamic faith molded him, He can still be the same God.

The Church is stating that we all start at point A but is unclear if we all end at point B. I hope and pray we all do.

 

[doormouse73]

Look at it like this…if you ask a Southern Baptist if Catholics are going to heave…their answer will be a swift NO…if you ask a Southern Baptist if Jew or Muslim will go to heaven…their answer will be NO…To a Southern Baptist, God is only merciful to those who believe in Christ and accept him for their salvation. According to them, if someone in Africa dies and did not accept Christ…they go to hell even if they never knew who Christ was. Now do you believe that? Southern Baptist are Christians and believe in the Son of God.

but that has nothing to do with what we are talking about… its my belief as a Catholic that people are saved in other religions and

but in islam you are not

…

ive put enough up to say my piece… and ive shown you what i believe in the CCC 841…
im not a sinner ,or a disbeliever,or a heretic…

EDIT…

highlighted these words because i put in the wrong word wrote that instead of but… sorry.

 

[aidanbradypop]

but that has nothing to do with what we are talking about… its my belief as a Catholic that people are saved in other religions and that in islam you are not…

ive put enough up to say my piece… and ive shown you what i believe in the CCC 841…
im not a sinner ,or a disbeliever,or a heretic…

Will talk with your priest or call the apologist line for CAL?

 

[Gricken]

but i do believe in the immaculate conception. do you not believe in the word of God?go and read it from the holy spirit that inspired the gospels.and i do believe that man can be saved,any person.

but as you see the islamic God does not believe this to be true…

this is what i am pointing out,but yet your post are aimed at me for doing so.

i am a bit took a back when God changes his mind 650 years later to tell me that Jesus didnt die on a cross,no resurrection,God was not really his father. and then go on to say kill every body who is not muslim or subjugate them,or pay a tax to keep what ever faith they hold… is this the same God?surly not…

its they believe in a creator that is the point of reference…

The official church position is that anyone CAN be saved, but it is much more difficult to be saved if you are not catholic, and some religions are easier to be saved in than others. But we don’t know how many non-Catholics are saved, so we leave that up to God.It is also the official church position that Muslims do believe in the same God we do. That does not mean that we believe that what they teach about him is correct. You can object to what they say God teaches, but the fact of the matter is that they do believe in the same God

 

[aidanbradypop]

The official church position is that anyone CAN be saved, but it is much more difficult to be saved if you are not catholic, and some religions are easier to be saved in than others. But we don’t know how many non-Catholics are saved, so we leave that up to God.It is also the official church position that Muslims do believe in the same God we do. That does not mean that we believe that what they teach about him is correct. You can object to what they say God teaches, but the fact of the matter is that they do believe in the same God

Thank you!

Like Gricken stated, you can object to their doctrines and faith but you cannot object to the fact that they believe in the same God. Just like I can object to the Baptist teachings but not the God they believe in.

 

[doormouse73]

Thank you!

Like Gricken stated, you can object to their doctrines and faith but you cannot object to the fact that they believe in the same God. Just like I can object to the Baptist teachings but not the God they believe in.

does it make me a sinner to hold these beliefs??

and for the upteenth time ive already said for the record i know people of any faith or no faith can be saved… lolol.

 

[aidanbradypop]

does it make me a sinner to hold these beliefs??

Ugh…lol doormouse I am sure you are a faithful Catholic that loves the Church. Just ask your priest about this. I really do not know of any other way to explain it.

 

[doormouse73]

Ugh…lol doormouse I am sure you are a faithful Catholic that loves the Church. Just ask your priest about this. I really do not know of any other way to explain it.

i already have ,about four years ago…

his reply was nothing… just to be charitable in the way i speak…

 

[aidanbradypop]

i already have ,about four years ago…

his reply was nothing… just to be charitable in the way i speak…

He should have explained it for you. Try calling the apologist line for CA. There are many tracts on here about it. The Church teaches that they believe in the same God and they can be saved. It does not mean we have to agree with the Koran, Mohammad or their faith. I for one totally disagree with Islam.

 

[doormouse73]

He should have explained it for you. Try calling the apologist line for CA. There are many tracts on here about it. The Church teaches that they believe in the same God and they can be saved. It does not mean we have to agree with the Koran, Mohammad or their faith. I for one totally disagree with Islam.

please forgive me for the way ive gone about things… i do know that it is the same God.its all down to the interpretation of God,that gets my back up… i do not like God being put in the same breath as it does in some religions…

i was not being obnoxious,please understand this…

 

[dzheremi]

like i stated before, a Christian can believe in God and have a totally different view of Him than another Christian. God is still God. It does not matter how our sinful nature changes Him, He is still God. It does not matter how the Islamic faith molded him, He can still be the same God.

How the Islamic faith “molded” Him? That makes God sound as though He is made of clay.

Did you happen to listen to the talk by EO priest Father Reardon that I linked a few pages back? He made a very interesting point that I think might illustrate why what you have written is a very wrong way to look at things. Paraphrasing, Father Reardon makes the case that mankind did not arrive at monotheism by a process of deduction or in any other way but by direct divine revelation. It was, as Father Reardon points out, a sort of “intrusion” upon man’s thoughts. This partially explains the significance of Moses being told to remove his shoes, to emphasize that he is not to approach God according to his own religious understanding, but instead according to what God was telling him. And that message was and is one of exclusive identity (i.e., that the God who spoke to Moses is the One God), rather than purely or even mostly numerical.

So it is not the case that those who argue that this or that religion other than their own is not worshiping God (or “the same” God) have somehow changed Him, or admitted more than one God to begin with, or anything like that. Put simply, if me and my neighbor disagree on who or what God is, but both believe in that there is only one, then quite clearly someone must be wrong, not because our conceptions can “change” God or allow Him to be molded in this way or that, but because both of what or who we call “God” in our respective religious systems make exclusive identificational claims that make the other false.

If Islam worships the true God, then forget about “the same” or not, Christianity is just false. If Christianity worships the true God, then Islam is false. Welcome to monotheism. I will not give up the Cross any more than the Muslim will give up his strange version of tawhid.

“For Jews request a sign, and Greeks seek after wisdom; but we preach Christ crucified, to the Jews a stumbling block and to the Greeks foolishness, but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men.”

(The Muslims, it should be said, in common with most of today’s Christians, would fall under “Greeks”, used in the NT as a synonym for “Gentiles”…and how right was our teacher and master St. Paul in describing them thusly!)

 

[aidanbradypop]

please forgive me for the way ive gone about things… i do know that it is the same God.its all down to the interpretation of God,that gets my back up… i do not like God being put in the same breath as it does in some religions…

i was not being obnoxious,please understand this…

I know you meant well. That is why I was charitable to you I trust in the Church and put my faith in God that He will guide the Church in all ways. I have Muslims in my family by marriage so I have to continue to pray for them and I ask for their prayers as well. I trust that the Church is correct on this and I trust in God the He knows every man’s heart and not I. It was fun talking with you doormouse! May God bless you and your household.

 

[aidanbradypop]

How the Islamic faith “molded” Him? That makes God sound as though He is made of clay.

Did you happen to listen to the talk by EO priest Father Reardon that I linked a few pages back? He made a very interesting point that I think might illustrate why what you have written is a very wrong way to look at things. Paraphrasing, Father Reardon makes the case that mankind did not arrive at monotheism by a process of deduction or in any other way but by direct divine revelation. It was, as Father Reardon points out, a sort of “intrusion” upon man’s thoughts. This partially explains the significance of Moses being told to remove his shoes, to emphasize that he is not to approach God according to his own religious understanding, but instead according to what God was telling him. And that message was and is one of exclusive identity (i.e., that the God who spoke to Moses is the One God), rather than purely or even mostly numerical.

So it is not the case that those who argue that this or that religion other than their own is not worshiping God (or “the same” God) have somehow changed Him, or admitted more than one God to begin with, or anything like that. Put simply, if me and my neighbor disagree on who or what God is, but both believe in that there is only one, then quite clearly someone must be wrong, not because our conceptions can “change” God or allow Him to be molded in this way or that, but because both of what or who we call “God” in our respective religious systems make exclusive identificational claims that make the other false.

If Islam worships the true God, then forget about “the same” or not, Christianity is just false. If Christianity worships the true God, then Islam is false. Welcome to monotheism. I will not give up the Cross any more than the Muslim will give up his strange version of tawhid.

“For Jews request a sign, and Greeks seek after wisdom; but we preach Christ crucified, to the Jews a stumbling block and to the Greeks foolishness, but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men.”

(The Muslims, it should be said, in common with most of today’s Christians, would fall under “Greeks”, used in the NT as a synonym for “Gentiles”…and how right was our teacher and master St. Paul in describing them thusly!)

I respect your opinion for what it is…an opinion. The Catholic Church, which I am a member of, has stated clearly for me and I accept that belief. If Catholics and Orthodox believed that same thing then we would still be one Church…and I do not mean that to be mean.

 

[doormouse73]

I know you meant well. That is why I was charitable to you I trust in the Church and put my faith in God that He will guide the Church in all ways. I have Muslims in my family by marriage so I have to continue to pray for them and I ask for their prayers as well. I trust that the Church is correct on this and I trust in God the He knows every man’s heart and not I. It was fun talking with you doormouse! May God bless you and your household.

God bless you and yours also…and all the Christians around the world and all Gods people.

 

[PastorBonus]

At the end of the day it is not about whether or not we worship the same God, because we do. The Qu’ran said this, the Catechism said this, and many Jewish rabbis have ratified this belief. The elephant in the room is whether or not we have the right understanding of God’s nature and whether or not our actions will help us attain salvation. This is the main contender between 3 religions that all claim true relationship with God. One of the factors that helped me choose Christianity is its universality. The Christian faith has elements that appeals to all people from all cultures and languages and can be easily adopted to any traditions. Since Vatican II Catholic Christianity has become even more integrated to local traditions and customs and help spread the faith even better. In my own rationality, if God is real and He is one, then God must also be universal. Only in Christianity do I see a universal God. Both Islam and Judaism have their beauty, but the culture from which they originated is so ingrained in them that it makes it difficult for other cultures to accept.

 

[PastorBonus]

WE may think that…

But I doubt Moslems do, as their entire relationship to God is viewed as slave / master and ours is child / father. Also, how can we even be taught that? Our God is triune and they do not believe that at all. Next thing you know the pope will be kissing the koran!

Since Judaism and Islam do not personalize the image of God, it’d be hard for any of them to describe their relationship with God as something as intimate. It is not a slave/master relationship but more of a creator/created relationship, the same kind that can be found in the Old Testament

 

[meltzerboy]

Since Judaism and Islam do not personalize the image of God, it’d be hard for any of them to describe their relationship with God as something as intimate. It is not a slave/master relationship but more of a creator/created relationship, the same kind that can be found in the Old Testament

I cannot speak for Islam, but Judaism has a very personal relationship with G-d. Haven’t you seen “Fiddler on the Roof,” in which Tevye is always talking to G-d, complaining, negotiating, even accusing Him? That’s how intimate the relationship is between Jews and G-d. Prayer is very personal as well, and it is not confined to the synagogue. In the Jewish home, the kitchen table is the altar and the woman who lights the Friday night candles addresses her prayers directly to G-d for her whole family.

 

[PastorBonus]

The correct view according to Christians in regard to the Holy Trinity could be best illustrated by St. Patrick’s shamrock. Through the shamrock, St. Patrick proved to ancient Celts though God consists of 3 distinct persons, He is one God, just as though the shamrock has 3 distinct leaves, it is one plant. Another analogy could be the triangle. Though a triangle includes 3 angles, it is one shape. The Father, Son,and Holy Spirit though 3 persons but only one God. This is not polytheism or suggesting that God has a partner. This is merely saying God has 3 different…individualities (probably not the right word, so correct me Catholics ). Catholics, Orthodox, and Anglicans use the sign of the cross to remember that no matter which person of the Trinity they pray to, they are praying to one God.

I must say the trinity thing is probably why I’m not a Muslim. Though I admire its beauty I can’t stand the way th Qu’ran portray Christianity. If the Qu’ran is the very words from the mouth of God, then he should at least understand the religion He wants to criticize