Jews--Christians--Muslims...same God?

[Little_Star_1]

Nope, I am not assuming anyone is looking for anything in particular from God or of God. I am assuming that everyone has a bit of a different take on God and that they should follow that to the full extent of their faith, whatever that faith may be. I am assuming that however they see God, they find evidence of that in the big and the small things in life and it would be nice if we would share that with one another.

I am also assuming that making statements that others “invented” gods is a sure fire way to insult them. I know that type of rhetoric is not of God.

 

[nmgauss]

Nope, I am not assuming anyone is looking for anything in particular from God or of God. I am assuming that everyone has a bit of a different take on God and that they should follow that to the full extent of their faith, whatever that faith may be. I am assuming that however they see God, they find evidence of that in the big and the small things in life and it would be nice if we would share that with one another.

I am also assuming that making statements that others “invented” gods is a sure fire way to insult them. I know that type of rhetoric is not of God.

I have seen this invention process expounded upon in “A History of God”, by Karen Armstrong. The ancient Mesopotamians invented their gods. So did the Greeks and Romans. During the times of Abraham, many gods were recognized. If they were not real, then they were invented. The Polynesians invented their gods. So did the stone age people of North America. Muhammad noted that when the Quraysh of Mecca became rich, they invented gods that supported their capitalist ideas. After the word had spread in Arabia that revelations had appeared to Muhammad, soothsayers in several Arab tribes in the region claimed that they also had revelations. So each of these potential prophets was going around preaching his version of God’s revelation. Which one was the real one? If they invented their god, then they did what they thought Muhammad had done. Fortunately for the Arabs, Muhammad’s version prevailed.

 

[mayogirl25]

So a friend of mine mentioned that Muslims do not believe in the same God as we Christians and Jews. Does anyone else have that belief and if so why? I posted this in the Non-Catholic forum because my friend is a Protestant. I am interested to hear if this is a universal belief within Protestantism or just his personal belief. Thanks

Same God. Muslims believe Jesus to be a prophet. Mohammed was a prophet.

 

[nmgauss]

Same God. Muslims believe Jesus to be a prophet. Mohammed was a prophet.

The same God may be worshipped, but each faith has a different interpretation of God’s nature. Abraham worshipped a God among several, Moses worshipped Yahweh who demanded supremacy over the other Gods, the Catholics worship a Triune God, the Unitarians worship a unitary God, and the Muslims worship Al-lah. If the same God were worshipped in all western faiths, there is no agreement on the nature of God.

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

Same God. Muslims believe Jesus to be a prophet. Mohammed was a prophet.

Do Arrians have the same God as Roman Catholics?

 

[Little_Star_1]

I have seen this invention process expounded upon in “A History of God”, by Karen Armstrong. The ancient Mesopotamians invented their gods. So did the Greeks and Romans. During the times of Abraham, many gods were recognized. If they were not real, then they were invented. The Polynesians invented their gods. So did the stone age people of North America. Muhammad noted that when the Quraysh of Mecca became rich, they invented gods that supported their capitalist ideas. After the word had spread in Arabia that revelations had appeared to Muhammad, soothsayers in several Arab tribes in the region claimed that they also had revelations. So each of these potential prophets was going around preaching his version of God’s revelation. Which one was the real one? If they invented their god, then they did what they thought Muhammad had done. Fortunately for the Arabs, Muhammad’s version prevailed.

I am not arguing over whether or not their god was “invented”. I have no idea. I have no true understanding of their faith. From what I do understand, they assign a god to represent various aspects of nature and life. Do they see them as living gods as we see our Father? I do not know.

My point was that to refer to their concept of a higher power as something that was invented belittles and insults their faith and them as a people. It is one thing to hold the idea that your concept of God is the one and only Truth. It is quite another to describe another belief system as an invention. To do so is to alienate those that hold onto the concepts as Truth, which does nothing to further man’s moving towards true brotherhood and only advances hatred.

It doesn’t matter that there are books that describe something in this manner. What I am talking about is not scholarship. I am talking about love–how to treat and look upon another that you believe is different than yourself. Is your idea of God, your faith, any less of a concept spelled out in so many words in a book called the Bible if those that profess to follow it fail to live it–to be it?

If the result does nothing but sow seeds of hate, then it is not of God. Gandhi said that if all Christians truly acted as Christians, everyone would be Christian. The main task of a Christian is to love everyone and that means embracing the fact that they may have different ideas of faith than you; but, they are still no different than you. If you cannot embrace the commandment to love your neighbor as you love yourself, are you any less lost than those you believe hold onto “invented gods”? Would you ask that someone wound you and your pride in this way? Then, don’t do it to another.

 

[nmgauss]

My point was that to refer to their concept of a higher power as something that was invented belittles and insults their faith and them as a people. It is one thing to hold the idea that your concept of God is the one and only Truth. It is quite another to describe another belief system as an invention. To do so is to alienate those that hold onto the concepts as Truth, which does nothing to further man’s moving towards true brotherhood and only advances hatred.
.

Perhaps “invented” is a pejorative term. Another way to say it is “the experiencing of a deity in ones world”. The most we can say for sure is that a deity is a psychological entity and cannot be proven scientifically. But if the concept is real to one, and the new deity enters a persons consciousness, this amounts to insertion into one’s psyche of a new idea. The person may not have invented it, but the new idea would have to come from somewhere. If the Triune God was not in the culture of the Jews, it was a new idea in the West. Where did it come from if not having been created by Christians?

 

[rinnie]

So a friend of mine mentioned that Muslims do not believe in the same God as we Christians and Jews. Does anyone else have that belief and if so why? I posted this in the Non-Catholic forum because my friend is a Protestant. I am interested to hear if this is a universal belief within Protestantism or just his personal belief. Thanks

Universal. The RCC teaches this.

 

[Little_Star_1]

Perhaps “invented” is a pejorative term. Another way to say it is “the experiencing of a deity in ones world”. The most we can say for sure is that a deity is a psychological entity and cannot be proven scientifically. But if the concept is real to one, and the new deity enters a persons consciousness, this amounts to insertion into one’s psyche of a new idea. The person may not have invented it, but the new idea would have to come from somewhere. If the Triune God was not in the culture of the Jews, it was a new idea in the West. Where did it come from if not having been created by Christians?

Recognition of the Triune God came from giving recognition to the God of Abraham, the Son of God–Jesus, and the Comforter–the Holy Spirit. Some see it as three persons, some see it as three expressions of the one God-three manners in which God expresses His Being to man. It isn’t something that can be easily explained with words. It is not something that is meant to be realized through words.

Once it is experienced, it enters your consciousness and is actual form. I know that didn’t really make complete sense. This is because it is impossible to hold with words. However, the thinking that Christians are dividing the one indivisible God into three beings is not accurate any more than the fact that the Jewish faith has twelve names for God means that they are breaking God down into twelve separate Gods. It is the manner in which God communes with man, the power, the love, and the abiding divine spark within man that brings it to man’s reason that he is within God and God is within man.

 

[Little_Star_1]

Hear hear! Well said.

It’s worth noting doctrine does declare that even those not exposed to the teachings of Jesus or even to the knowledge of His existence are saved if they live out compassion and love of neighbor, because those virtues demonstrate love of God even when ignorant of Him.

You have spoken it beautifully yourself!!!

 

[nmgauss]

It’s worth noting doctrine does declare that even those not exposed to the teachings of Jesus or even to the knowledge of His existence are saved if they live out compassion and love of neighbor, because those virtues demonstrate love of God even when ignorant of Him.

“He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned”
Mark 16:16

 

[Little_Star_1]

“He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned”
Mark 16:16

God is holy. He administers justice. (Acts 17,31),. The response you replied to sets up a situation of someone that has not heard of Jesus. Therefore, they cannot, by a just God, be held accountable for what they do not know. So, they must be judged according their deeds. (Romans 2,6), words (Matthew 12,36-37) and thoughts (Hebrews 4,12). So, for people that have never heard Jesus’ teachings, they must be judged according to the lives they live.

For those that have heard and what they have heard is but a shadow of the true nature of God, they have a responsibility to seek the Truth. Keep in mind, those that do believe are held to its standards. So, what you believe, or think about, you will be judge by.

Now, I ask you, what is meant by “believeth”? Does it stop at the ability to cite scripture and know the law? Does it include throwing the “law” into the face of an unbeliever and calling them damned? How about those Pharisees who acted according to their concept of the law of Moses? How about Jesus’ story of the Pharisee who was a believer and the poor sinner that prayed at the same time to God? Who did Jesus say came out ahead in the eyes of God?

Our’s is supposed to be a living faith. As you judge, so you shall be judged. A person’s is responsible for determining how closely they as individuals live their lives according to God’s will. They are responsible for this and commanded to give Love to believers and non-believers alike. Postulating that someone is damned really doesn’t go along with the Love commandment. Reach out to them as Jesus did the woman at the well. Or, if you truly believe what you quoted is true, become a missionary and seek to bring them into the Truth. This is acting out your faith through Love, not desiring that anyone should be lost,don’t just condemn them in your mind. Believing is far more than knowing scripture–far, far more. Walk it.

 

[Little_Star_1]

Further, you should be able to know in your heart of hearts that you can reach out to every single person, every single person, that you pass during a day, if, of course, circumstances warrant it, and say “you’ve got a friend”.

Once again, don’t do something like this unless circumstances arrive that invite the chance to do this. However, whether the chance ever arrives or not, if you examine your conscience and know that you are not able to do this with honesty, then you have a great deal of interior work to do and may as well get on with it.

 

[John_Paul_Jones]

Are there Christians out there that think Jesus is filtering out the prayers of Jews and Muslims that are made in love to our Father?

On the other hand what makes you assume they are praying to Jesus?

 

[Little_Star_1]

Didn’t say they were praying to Jesus or acknowledging him in any way shape or form. However, I, being a Christian, believe that when prayers are made, Jesus hears them. I believe, know, that he loves us all and is interested in the lives of each and everyone of us, whether someone proclaims him or not. The Truth is the Truth and is not hampered by what any one of us may profess as our beliefs. He was there when the universe was formed. He was there when God spoke to Abraham. He is, was and will be.

I know a woman that teaches meditation. She is a Christian but teaches to all people regardless of their faith and does not lecture on religion or bring religion into her classes. Meditating, reaching out to the divine, is done by the spirit. So religion really doesn’t matter. She had a Jewish woman in her class. After the class, the woman approached her and told her that while she was in a meditative state, she had a vision of her running in a marathon. As she approached the finish line, she saw Jesus standing to the side beckoning her to go on and finish the race, waving her through with a huge smile on his face. Does this indicate that he holds her adherence to Judaism against her? Needless to say she was stunned by the experience.

We can only judge with the eyes of man. We can only see within the text of the Bible what a man can digest with his mind and intellect. We can go further by also engaging our hearts. But, as many are never brought to see this, many are not able to do this.

So many of us read the words and see their plain meaning alone and from this actually, as many speak and write, rejoice over the idea that some will be damned. It is as if they are kids taunting others saying “I am going to Heaven and you aren’t, nah, nah, nah”.

God has a plan for all of us. He knows of the various religions and what they teach and He knows our deeds. He knows our hearts. It is by this that we will be judged. You can choose to believe differently. I chose to concern myself with what He thinks of ME and my faith, and my deeds, and my heart. I leave the rest, which is God’s, to God, knowing to do otherwise is a far greater sin on my part. In case you didn’t notice, God doesn’t need religion to be God.

Peace be with you.

 

[nmgauss]

The New Testament has been labeled propaganda. Analysis of the Gospels reveals that persuasion to believe in Jesus as divinity and his teachins is their chief theme. Attempting a complete biography of Jesus was not the focus. The Gospel according to John, the last to have been written, contains the most propaganda of the four Gospels. Indeed, since it was written about 70 years after the crucifixion of Jesus, it could not have been written from John’s eyewitness experiences. In fact many scholars assert that John was written anonymously and was entitled “Gospel according to John” to make it more effective in Christian missionary work.

This makes it more susceptible to editing by various people who had a multitude of themes to introduce that were probably invented. Nobody knows for sure who wrote this Gospel, but John most likely could not have written it, since he would have to have been over ninety years old.

 

[Little_Star_1]

So?

 

[mek42]

I’m a new member and I read this thread in entirety over this weekend. (Is there a badge for this? )

My response is that it is the same God, no matter what the believers want to think. My related question is whether the Holy Spirit is the same as the Voice of God? As kind of an outsider, without a dog in the fight, reading about the two, they sound rather similar.

 

[couponfit]

“The Church regards with esteem also the Muslims. They adore the one God, living and subsisting in himself; merciful and all-powerful, the Creator of heaven and earth, who has spoken to men; they take pains to submit wholeheartedly to even his inscrutable decrees, just as Abraham, with whom the faith of Islam takes pleasure in linking itself, submitted to God.” (Nostra Aetate 3)

Some references:
a. Nostrea Aetate, 1965; paragraph 3, and 4. vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_decl_19651028_nostra-aetate_en.html

b. Guidelines and suggestions for implementing the conciliar declaration “Nostra Aetate”, 1974
vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/chrstuni/relations-jews-docs/rc_pc_chrstuni_doc_19741201_nostra-aetate_en.html

c. Notes on on the correct way to present the Jews and Judaism in preaching and catechesis in the Roman Catholic Church 1985
vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/chrstuni/relations-jews-docs/rc_pc_chrstuni_doc_19820306_jews-judaism_en.html

d. Dignitatis Humanae, 1965 vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_decl_19651207_dignitatis-humanae_en.html

e. Lumen Gentium (Dogmatic Constitution of the Church), 1965; paragraph 16 vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_const_19641121_lumen-gentium_en.html

e. Catechism of the Catholic Church, 1985; Article 9, Paragraph 3, Section 839 through 845; and then read 846-848 which are critical to understanding your OP question. vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P29.HTM

 

[Little_Star_1]

I’m a new member and I read this thread in entirety over this weekend. (Is there a badge for this? )

My response is that it is the same God, no matter what the believers want to think. My related question is whether the Holy Spirit is the same as the Voice of God? As kind of an outsider, without a dog in the fight, reading about the two, they sound rather similar.

They are kind of the same thing. My understanding, and others may have a different one, but from my understanding and experience, the Holy Spirit is that which communicates with you to facilitate your growth. You have guardian angels which do this as well. The Holy Spirit brings you comfort, directs your spiritual growth, it is the God spark within you. To put it in more concrete terms is really hard as our human brains can’t really hold the concept as it really is within the world. At least mine can’t at this point. But, I don’t think being able to put it into words is important. It is felt knowledge, if that makes sense.

I will give you an example. If you get really, really down from life’s challenges, and get on your knees and ask God to help you, don’t just ask to have the situation changed or to be guided out of it, ask for the strength to go on, ask for understanding of what the challenge means to your development, ask for the broken heart to recede and for understanding to take its place with the ability to move on complete and whole. Well, you know the saying “peace that surpasses all understanding”? When it is time in God’s mind, this peace will settle over you.

You wont just feel peace, you will feel joy and love and at complete rest and in love with the world. This feeling is the work of the Holy Spirit. It comes suddenly and quietly and illuminates your mind and heart. It will give you an awareness of who you are in the mind of God. It will teach you as it brings you peace. This is the natural state of man when he/she is in touch with God. It is what is meant by “putting on the mind of Christ”.

This is what he meant when he said “I am the Truth and the Light”. Part of the reason for his life being sacrificed was so that they we may, through the Holy Spirit, find our way to living in this peace. He said that he had to die in order for the comforter to come.

Quite truthfully, the Holy Spirit is within all us, believers and non-believers. I am not sure if you even have to believe in its being there to “discover” it. For some people it will just come over them and they find it in this way. I think, though, that being a Christian helps gain access as you know in your heart that it will come. However, belief in terms of knowing Scripture is not enough. You have to have heart knowledge. If someone has heart knowledge of God, is in love with God, they have an awareness of their connection to God and so the Holy Spirit is alive in them.

To tell the truth, some believe the Romans stopped killing Christians because they observed this state of joy in Christians about to be put to death for their beliefs and wanted to experience that joy for themselves. Then again, when Constantine converted, that was that for the persecutions in Rome. It may have been both. I got a bit off subject, but I wanted to illustrate that it is a pretty powerful experience.

I think, but can’t say for sure, that Jews and Muslims have a concept of this state but call it or think of it in different terms. I say this because both use the greeting “Shalom” which means peace be with you. I could be wrong. But, it is in all of us. I think the Buddhist call it Nirvana. Christians take it a step further and identify its source as being God, which it is. It is our job to continually develop it in our awareness as we go through life–as we do so, we learn to fall in love with all men and with the gift of life itself with all of its pains and joys. The challenges are what take us there. Francis Chan has a book out about it called “The Forgotten God”. It doesn’t set up the Holy Spirit as a separate God as the title suggests. It is more like the forgotten aspect of God as it is not really discussed in sermons and so folks don’t understand it. I think of the Holy Spirit as being like a very supportive coach.