Jews--Christians--Muslims...same God?

[Little_Star_1]

Here is a description of what its results shall be when man again is ruled by God in the heart and mind:

Isaiah 2

“And many people shall go and say, Come you, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem. 4And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more. O house of Jacob, come you, and let us walk in the light of the LORD.”

The “mountain” is this state of love through the Holy Spirit within us and we can and will all “walk in this light”. See, it is all laid out in the Word. The Word instructs us. So, folks quoting scripture to condemn others is really not the true purpose of God giving us the Word. It is a misunderstanding and an abuse of scripture to do so. People are won through love.

 

[Little_Star_1]

One more thing about the Holy Spirit, and after that I shall leave you good folks alone for a while. It is through the Holy Spirit that we know that our sins have been forgiven and that we are healed. We are forgiven no matter what. However, we know and feel this forgiveness through the Holy Spirit and that knowing comes from the peace that settles over us. Its a pretty wonderful thing.

I wish you joy and peace!

 

[nmgauss]

Exegesis of portions of the Book of Ezekiel by Karen Armstrong results in the following:
After the exiling of the Israelites to Babylon by King Nebuchadnezzar, the people in their new land retained their culture.
"They belonged to the people of Israel and believed that their god Yahweh had promised that if they worshipped him exclusively, they would live in their land forever. The Jerusalem temple, where Yahweh had dwelt among his people, was essential to his cult. Yet here they were in an alien land, cast out of Yahweh’s presence. This must be a divine punishment. Time and again, the Israelites had failed to keep their covenant agreement with Yahweh and had succumbed to the lure of other deities. Some of the exiles assumed that, as the leaders of Israel, it was up to them to rectify the situation, but how could they serve Yahweh without the temple that was their only means of making contact with their god?

Five years after his arrival in Babylon,… …,a young priest called Ezekiel had a terrifying vision. It was impossible to see anything clearly because nothing in this stormy maelstrom of fire and tumultuous sound conformed to ordinary human categories, but Ezekiel knew that he was in the presence of the kavod, the ‘glory’ of Yahweh, which was usually enthroned in the inner sanctum of the temple. God had left Jerusalem and, riding on what seemed to be a massive war chariot, had come to live with the exiles in Babylon"

Does the nature of Yahweh (God) as described here depart markedly from the Christian God or the Muslim God?

 

[Little_Star_1]

Exegesis of portions of the Book of Ezekiel by Karen Armstrong results in the following:
After the exiling of the Israelites to Babylon by King Nebuchadnezzar, the people in their new land retained their culture.
"They belonged to the people of Israel and believed that their god Yahweh had promised that if they worshipped him exclusively, they would live in their land forever. The Jerusalem temple, where Yahweh had dwelt among his people, was essential to his cult. Yet here they were in an alien land, cast out of Yahweh’s presence. This must be a divine punishment. Time and again, the Israelites had failed to keep their covenant agreement with Yahweh and had succumbed to the lure of other deities. Some of the exiles assumed that, as the leaders of Israel, it was up to them to rectify the situation, but how could they serve Yahweh without the temple that was their only means of making contact with their god?

Five years after his arrival in Babylon,… …,a young priest called Ezekiel had a terrifying vision. It was impossible to see anything clearly because nothing in this stormy maelstrom of fire and tumultuous sound conformed to ordinary human categories, but Ezekiel knew that he was in the presence of the kavod, the ‘glory’ of Yahweh, which was usually enthroned in the inner sanctum of the temple. God had left Jerusalem and, riding on what seemed to be a massive war chariot, had come to live with the exiles in Babylon"

Does the nature of Yahweh (God) as described here depart markedly from the Christian God or the Muslim God?

First, the way you phrased your question makes an assumption which many people on this site have refuted. Christians and Muslims worship the same God. There is no “or”. Yahweh is the One and the same Father God of Christians, Muslims, and the Jewish people.

Next, as I am Christian, I can only respond as a Christian. No it does not depart from the Christian view of God, at least not according to my understanding. You must be asking this for a reason beyond a yes or no answer. If there is some more expansive point you might be trying to make why have you not made it?

 

[rinnie]

On the other hand what makes you assume they are praying to Jesus?

If I may its not they we assume they are praying to Jesus, we Know they are. Because we were given the grace and blessing through the power of the Holy Spirit when we were baptised in the Trinity to have the knowledge that there is only One God in the 3 persons.

Because we know that God the Almighty creator of heaven and earth is 3 separate persons in ONE GOD.

 

[rinnie]

I’m getting confused now
Trinitarians believe that God is 3 but is still one entity so if one entity dies then there is no God because their is only one God

God became Man, that is through the Son, Who of course we call Jesus, Jesus died on the cross to take away our sins.

But see you need to see death of the body and death of the soul as it is taught in truth.

The truth being by his death on the cross, he gave us life. Eternal life in Christ.

To discribe the Trinity is pretty much impossible if you ask me.

But the bottom line is this. God is God. One God. He can choose to reveal himself anyway he chooses.

The easiest way to think of it is this. In the O.T. he revealed himself as God the Creator of heaven and earth.

In the N.T. he revealed himself as God the Son, who became Man, was human and divine and died for our sake.

Today we communicate with God by the power of the Holy Spirit. It is the Holy Spirit who is leading us today in the Church.

Different gods? No its God revealing himself to us different ways. And the 3 different ways ONE GOD revealed himself to us is in the 3 persons.

God left the world as Jesus, he left and went up into the clouds, God will be back again in the person of Jesus, he will come back the way he left to judge the living and the dead.

Thats when the world will end. Then we will all live together with God. The One God,

Although we cannot see God in the Holy Spirit today we can feel him, He lives through us. We are here to do his work.

The easiest way to say it is this, God can communicate with us, and reveal himself to us anyone he chooses. And it was through the Trinity that he chose.

 

[nmgauss]

First, the way you phrased your question makes an assumption which many people on this site have refuted. Christians and Muslims worship the same God. There is no “or”. Yahweh is the One and the same Father God of Christians, Muslims, and the Jewish people.

Next, as I am Christian, I can only respond as a Christian. No it does not depart from the Christian view of God, at least not according to my understanding. You must be asking this for a reason beyond a yes or no answer. If there is some more expansive point you might be trying to make why have you not made it?

To claim that Jews, Christians, and Muslims worship the same god has no evidence to back it up, especially when the Bible describes different gods and a different One-God from one book to the next.

To continue Karen Armstrong’s text:
“The exiles had brought a number of scrolls from the royal archive in Jerusalem to Babylon, and there they had studied and edited these documents. If they were allowed to return home, these records of the history and cult of their people could play an important role in the restoration of national life… But the scribes did not regard these writings as sacrosanct and felt free to add new passages, altering them to fit their changed circumstances.”
When the kingdoms of Israel and Judea were established, “on his coronation day, the king (of Judah) was adopted by Yahweh, became a ‘son of God’, and a member of Yahweh’s Divine Assembly of heavenly beings.” “many psalms later included in the Bible were used in the Jerusalem liturgy and show that the Judahites had been influenced by the cult of Baal in neighboring Syria.”
"By the eighth century, a small group of prophets wanted to make the people worship Yahweh exclusively. But this was not a popular move. As a warrior, Yahweh was unsurpassed, but he had no expertise in agriculture, so when they wanted a good harvest, it was natural for the people of Israel and Judah to have recourse to the cult of the local fertility god Baal and his sister-spouse Anat, practicing the usual ritual sex to make the fields fertile.

Does the God of Christians and Muslims have great skill at being a fierce warrior? Did Yahweh beget the king of Judah because he became a ‘son of God’?

 

[rinnie]

To claim that Jews, Christians, and Muslims worship the same god has no evidence to back it up, especially when the Bible describes different gods and a different One-God from one book to the next.

To continue Karen Armstrong’s text:
“The exiles had brought a number of scrolls from the royal archive in Jerusalem to Babylon, and there they had studied and edited these documents. If they were allowed to return home, these records of the history and cult of their people could play an important role in the restoration of national life… But the scribes did not regard these writings as sacrosanct and felt free to add new passages, altering them to fit their changed circumstances.”
When the kingdoms of Israel and Judea were established, “on his coronation day, the king (of Judah) was adopted by Yahweh, became a ‘son of God’, and a member of Yahweh’s Divine Assembly of heavenly beings.” “many psalms later included in the Bible were used in the Jerusalem liturgy and show that the Judahites had been influenced by the cult of Baal in neighboring Syria.”
"By the eighth century, a small group of prophets wanted to make the people worship Yahweh exclusively. But this was not a popular move. As a warrior, Yahweh was unsurpassed, but he had no expertise in agriculture, so when they wanted a good harvest, it was natural for the people of Israel and Judah to have recourse to the cult of the local fertility god Baal and his sister-spouse Anat, practicing the usual ritual sex to make the fields fertile.

Does the God of Christians and Muslims have great skill at being a fierce warrior? Did Yahweh beget the king of Judah because he became a ‘son of God’?

Actually I do have evidence to back it up. Jesus said to listen to the Church.

Jesus sent it Apostles to teach and preach the good news. The teachings of the CCC state that Muslims Jews and Christians all worship the One true God the God of Abraham.

Christ gave the Pope the keys to the kingdom and the right to teach and preach in his name through his Church,

So the evidence is the Church founded by Christ does indeed teach this.

 

[rinnie]

Actually if you look in your bible you will find the God of Abraham the creator or heaven and earth.

If you believe in the God of Abraham the One God creator of heaven and earth, and you believe he is the one true God then you also should agree with the teaching of the RCC.

Muslims profess the One true God the Creator of heaven and earth. They pray to the God of Abraham. That is who Christians pray to also.

 

[Little_Star_1]

To claim that Jews, Christians, and Muslims worship the same god has no evidence to back it up, especially when the Bible describes different gods and a different One-God from one book to the next.

To continue Karen Armstrong’s text:
“The exiles had brought a number of scrolls from the royal archive in Jerusalem to Babylon, and there they had studied and edited these documents. If they were allowed to return home, these records of the history and cult of their people could play an important role in the restoration of national life… But the scribes did not regard these writings as sacrosanct and felt free to add new passages, altering them to fit their changed circumstances.”
When the kingdoms of Israel and Judea were established, “on his coronation day, the king (of Judah) was adopted by Yahweh, became a ‘son of God’, and a member of Yahweh’s Divine Assembly of heavenly beings.” “many psalms later included in the Bible were used in the Jerusalem liturgy and show that the Judahites had been influenced by the cult of Baal in neighboring Syria.”
"By the eighth century, a small group of prophets wanted to make the people worship Yahweh exclusively. But this was not a popular move. As a warrior, Yahweh was unsurpassed, but he had no expertise in agriculture, so when they wanted a good harvest, it was natural for the people of Israel and Judah to have recourse to the cult of the local fertility god Baal and his sister-spouse Anat, practicing the usual ritual sex to make the fields fertile.

Does the God of Christians and Muslims have great skill at being a fierce warrior? Did Yahweh beget the king of Judah because he became a ‘son of God’?

Well, most folks, including myself, would say that whatever understanding you think you have of the Bible and what it says is wrong and way off base. In fact, I have no clue as how anyone could read the Old Testament and get the impression that it introduces different Gods in the different books.

In fact, your questions are so far off from what is there, there is really no way to answer you. I suggest, if you sincerely are trying to understand, you read something written by a Biblical Scholar or Theologian. I have read the Old Testament and it contains nothing like what you have quoted from Ms. Armstrong’s book. I have not read her book; but,I have heard her speak and from what I have heard from her, you are not accurate in the way you are quoting her.

Everything in your question suggests that you have no understanding of the three faiths. Are you sincerely trying to learn or just trying to make some type of point? The “evidence” that they worship the same God is the fact that they all derive their origins from the God of Abraham. In fact, the nation of Islam and the Jewish people are all descendants of Abraham. If you are being sincere, why do your questions contain provocative elements that appear to be intended as an insult? Is it your intention to spend your time and life insulting the beliefs of others?

 

[Little_Star_1]

To claim that Jews, Christians, and Muslims worship the same god has no evidence to back it up, especially when the Bible describes different gods and a different One-God from one book to the next.

To continue Karen Armstrong’s text:
“The exiles had brought a number of scrolls from the royal archive in Jerusalem to Babylon, and there they had studied and edited these documents. If they were allowed to return home, these records of the history and cult of their people could play an important role in the restoration of national life… But the scribes did not regard these writings as sacrosanct and felt free to add new passages, altering them to fit their changed circumstances.”
When the kingdoms of Israel and Judea were established, “on his coronation day, the king (of Judah) was adopted by Yahweh, became a ‘son of God’, and a member of Yahweh’s Divine Assembly of heavenly beings.” “many psalms later included in the Bible were used in the Jerusalem liturgy and show that the Judahites had been influenced by the cult of Baal in neighboring Syria.”
"By the eighth century, a small group of prophets wanted to make the people worship Yahweh exclusively. But this was not a popular move. As a warrior, Yahweh was unsurpassed, but he had no expertise in agriculture, so when they wanted a good harvest, it was natural for the people of Israel and Judah to have recourse to the cult of the local fertility god Baal and his sister-spouse Anat, practicing the usual ritual sex to make the fields fertile.

Does the God of Christians and Muslims have great skill at being a fierce warrior? Did Yahweh beget the king of Judah because he became a ‘son of God’?

If you really seek to understand, here is a link to a website that does a good job of discussing all three religions. changethestory.net/quran-bible-torah-comparison

 

[nmgauss]

Well, most folks, including myself, would say that whatever understanding you think you have of the Bible and what it says is wrong and way off base. In fact, I have no clue as how anyone could read the Old Testament and get the impression that it introduces different Gods in the different books.

In fact, your questions are so far off from what is there, there is really no way to answer you.

I suggest, if you sincerely are trying to understand, you read something written by a Biblical Scholar or Theologian

. I have read the Old Testament and it contains nothing like what you have quoted from Ms. Armstrong’s book. I have not read her book; but,I have heard her speak and from what I have heard from her, you are not accurate in the way you are quoting her.

I suggest you read “The Bible” by Karen Armstrong. She is a noted scholar in the field of religion. She spent seven years as a Catholic Nun before turning to writing scholarly pieces.

Everything in your question suggests that you have no understanding of the three faiths. Are you sincerely trying to learn or just trying to make some type of poin

t? The “evidence” that they worship the same God is the fact that they all derive their origins from the God of Abraham. In fact, the nation of Islam and the Jewish people are all descendants of Abraham. If you are being sincere, why do your questions contain provocative elements that appear to be intended as an insult? Is it your intention to spend your time and life insulting the beliefs of others?/QUOTE]

You are obviously defensive about anybody bringing up inconsistencies in the Bible as well as Christian beliefs that have no reliable evidence. A religious belief is frequently acquired by credulous people. If you cannot cite concrete evidence to support your position, I have to assume you are highly credulous. In my college courses in Western Civilization at Stanford, there were young women who burst into tears when such facts were presented in the classroom and supported by scholarly treatments by historians of note. They refused to accept the facts.

 

[Little_Star_1]

I suggest you read “The Bible” by Karen Armstrong. She is a noted scholar in the field of religion. She spent seven years as a Catholic Nun before turning to writing scholarly pieces.

 

[nmgauss]

nmgauss;10842207:

Study the Bible and try to answer this for yourself. No one can give you what you want. It is something you have to discover on your own. If you don’t believe, you don’t believe. Be at peace with that and accept that as your truth. It is not clear what you are asking of others. Why would we want to argue over something that teaches us to love and accept everyone and to live in peace? To engage in a debate with you would be to contradict our own personally held beliefs, something we hold in our hearts and our being.

Be at peace.

Since this is an apologetics philosophy forum, its purpose is to defend your position with convincing arguments. Mine are supported by quotes from a reputable scholar. Yours are not supported by anything. All you can do is place the burden on me. Why can’t you support your own position with quotes from credible people?

Why are you venturing forth into the Philosophy forum if you don’t want to explore certain points brought up by others? You are saying that one is to believe everything that is taught in church without questioning the veracity. Apparently if the Church says something is true, then it is true. That is hardly the approach that philosophers take.

 

[jakasaki]

Since this is an apologetics philosophy forum,

~ snip

Why are you venturing forth into the Philosophy forum if you don’t want to explore certain points brought up by others?

~ snip

This is not the philosophy forum - this is the Non-Catholic forum.

 

[nmgauss]

If you really seek to understand, here is a link to a website that does a good job of discussing all three religions. changethestory.net/quran-bible-torah-comparison

The writing on this website is not authored and has no bibliography to support its statements. It is therefore not reliable. It may be a teaching tool for people who want to be spoonfed biased information. It is not a credible source.

 

[Mijo12]

I would appreciate people reading The Great Heresies by Hilaire Belloc. It is a grat book, Belloc explains how Islam developed in the first place, how it really spread and how it’s similar to Arianism, and the Reformation.

 

[nmgauss]

I would appreciate people reading The Great Heresies by Hilaire Belloc. It is a grat book, Belloc explains how Islam developed in the first place, how it really spread and how it’s similar to Arianism, and the Reformation.

The book is not accompanied by a source list. It is a biased view with a thesis that it wants to defend. It is not neutral. Its value is limited in this discussion. Any piece of literature that is designed to promote a certain view is of limited value unless it treats other viewpoints and supports both views by sources.

 

[SAVINGRACE]

I’m a new member and I read this thread in entirety over this weekend. (Is there a badge for this? )

My response is that it is the same God, no matter what the believers want to think. My related question is whether the Holy Spirit is the same as the Voice of God? As kind of an outsider, without a dog in the fight, reading about the two, they sound rather similar.

 

[SAVINGRACE]

The important thing for Catholics at least is that all souls (regardless of belief or non-belief) are ultimately at the mercy of ‘God’ whether he is called Allah or G_d.

Believe it or not a Muslim/Jew or non-believer may get to Heaven and some of us christians may not.

A Jew/Muslim/atheist may follow or live the ‘christian’ life more than a so-called christian.

Why are we even attempting to argue this Mystery? Our mere minds cannot begin to fathom who God is?