Jews' Eternal Fate?

[Valke2]

You regard Christianity as a valid “structure” for accessing God. Is Christianity a God made “structure” or a man made “structure”?

If its man made, then you believe that man can make valid “structures” to access God. If you believe that it is God made then you are a Christian.

Then I guess I believe man can make valid structures to access God. 'cause I know I’m not christian.

I believe God reveals himself humans and we then do the best we can to understand and conceptualize the experience of revelation.

 

[ralphinal]

It seems like many anti-semites decide that since Jews do not accept Jesus, and there was a jewish involvement in his death, then they are all damned to hell. They then take it to the next step. If they are damned anyway, why not mistreat them. If they killed Jesus, why should we care about them. They deserve what they get. They live in thier own world and have their own rules. They obviously cheat us and look down on us. Some take it a step farther and actually attack them. I have never understood nor have I wanted to understand anti-semitism. I wish that we all could see people as Children of God until they show themselves to be otherwise, then we should pray for them.

 

[ckonrad]

Then I guess I believe man can make valid structures to access God. 'cause I know I’m not christian.

I believe God reveals himself humans and we then do the best we can to understand and conceptualize the experience of revelation.

So your position on Christianity as I understand it is: that as a Jew you view Christianity as a valid yet man made “structure” [or way of accessing God] which is inferior to modern Rabbinical Judaism which is also man made?

 

[ryanoneil]

What was Jesus honored with in John 8:54? If he is already God what higher honor could he get?

The creed says Jesus is God and man, never one or the other but always both. Based on that, Jesus can never speak as God at one point then as a man on the other, he has to speak as what he is, God and man.

And there is no God and man there in Exodus, only the Father of Israel which Jesus said is his father too.

Given all that it is impossible that Jesus was talking about being the God of Exodus in John 8:58. And all possible that he was talking about being like Melchizedek in Abraham’s day as I’ve shown.

He is honored by doing the will of his Father. He is honored by taking the place of Issac and all of us. When Abraham nearly sacrificed Issac as a holocaust, only to recieve him back alive, Abraham was witnessing a preview of the Father surrendering his own Son to death and receiving him back in the Resurrection.

Jesus claim is that he is one with God, who’s life in eternity has neither beginning nor end. That is why Jesus says “Your father Abraham rejoiced that he was to see my day; he saw it and was glad.” Being one with the father he was on the mountain with the Father just as much as Issac was with Abraham. Just as loyal and obedient to his father as Issac was with Abraham. Just as trusting and willing to lay down his life for his Father as Issac was with Abraham.

Although Jesus didn’t not have a human soul or body at the time, he was with the Father when he swore a covenant promise with Abraham. That moment on the mountain wasn’t either Sons time. In the fullness of time though, Jesus did arise to bless all nations by dying and rising for us.

Peace,

Ryan

 

[ckonrad]

If the Son is already God how much higher can he go?

If they can’t be divided then how can Jesus say he was the I AM that was in Exodus, since that being didn’t exist until the incarnation? Besides not being the Father of Israel that is also the Father of Jesus that spoke to Moses.

Well this discussion is probably a bit off topic there are other threads already in progress with these topics being spoken about you should just consider starting a thread on this topic. However i think these questions have been answered over and over again, i mean we all keep answering your questions but you just keep asking the same thing. Start a trinity thread and i’d be happy to go on it when i have time.

 

[ckonrad]

What was Jesus honored with in John 8:54? If he is already God what higher honor could he get?

The creed says Jesus is God and man, never one or the other but always both. Based on that, Jesus can never speak as God at one point then as a man on the other, he has to speak as what he is, God and man.

And there is no God and man there in Exodus, only the Father of Israel which Jesus said is his father too.

Given all that it is impossible that Jesus was talking about being the God of Exodus in John 8:58. And all possible that he was talking about being like Melchizedek in Abraham’s day as I’ve shown.

Jesus can speak as a man or as God, He doesn’t fit into your interpretation of what you want him to be.

 

[FaithofAbraham]

Jesus can speak as a man or as God, He doesn’t fit into your interpretation of what you want him to be.

Not if he can’t be divided as the creed says. He can’t speak as the God of Exodus on one shoulder then turn to the other and speak as a man. Unless maybe he is bipolar or something.

 

[Valke2]

So your position on Christianity as I understand it is: that as a Jew you view Christianity as a valid yet man made “structure” [or way of accessing God] which is inferior to modern Rabbinical Judaism which is also man made?

I would say that Christainity is an inferior method for me. For me, Judasim is right and true. I believe both religions are a response to the apprehension of God.

 

[Reuben_J]

Let’s get back to the subject of the thread - Jews eternal fate.

God gave them promises of the Messiah and restoration of their nation. God gave them choices and it was for them to choose which one.

Dt 30:15-20 See, I set before you today life and prosperity, death and destruction. 16 For I command you today to love the LORD your God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commands, decrees and laws; then you will live and increase, and the LORD your God will bless you in the land you are entering to possess.

17 But if your heart turns away and you are not obedient, and if you are drawn away to bow down to other gods and worship them, 18 I declare to you this day that you will certainly be destroyed. You will not live long in the land you are crossing the Jordan to enter and possess.

19 This day I call heaven and earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live 20 and that you may love the LORD your God, listen to his voice, and hold fast to him. For the LORD is your life, and he will give you many years in the land he swore to give to your fathers, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

They did not take their chances and so Jerusalem should lay desolate and no stone would be left unturned. They were whom Jesus called pervert generation. And so they will not see the Lord again until they recognize God’s only Son, and bend their knees and confess with their tongues that he is Lord.

Mt23:37-39
"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing. 38Look, your house is left to you desolate. 39For I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, ‘Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.’ "

Of course the question now is: what about Jerusalem? The prophecy still stands, I suppose. The choice is theirs and the Lord can’t wait forever. Depend on their choice, whether Jerusalem would still be theirs or taken away from them and given to God’s people of the New Covenant.

 

[catharina]

Let’s get back to the subject of the thread - Jews eternal fate.

Mt23:37-39
"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing. 38Look, your house is left to you desolate. 39For I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, ‘Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.’ "

Of course the question now is: what about Jerusalem? The prophecy still stands, I suppose. The choice is theirs and the Lord can’t wait forever. Depend on their choice, whether Jerusalem would still be theirs or taken away from them and given to God’s people of the New Covenant.

Yet St. Paul promises:
25
I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery, brothers, so that you will not become wise (in) your own estimation: a hardening has come upon Israel in part, until the full number of the Gentiles comes in,
26
and thus all Israel will be saved, as it is written: “The deliverer will come out of Zion, he will turn away godlessness from Jacob;
27
and this is my covenant with them when I take away their sins.”
28
In respect to the gospel, they are enemies on your account; but in respect to election, they are beloved because of the patriarchs.
29
For the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable.

(St. Paul to the Romans, 11:25-29)

As verse 26 says: “all of Israel will be saved … .”
and in verse 29: “For the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable.”

 

[ryanoneil]

Yet St. Paul promises:
25
I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery, brothers, so that you will not become wise (in) your own estimation: a hardening has come upon Israel in part, until the full number of the Gentiles comes in,
26
and thus all Israel will be saved, as it is written: "The deliverer will come out of Zion, he will turn away godlessness from Jacob;

I hope God saves us all. All Israel and the full number of the Gentiles. I believe this scripture says something different though. The hardening upon Israel remains until the very end of time, when the last Gentile comes in. In other words the hardening always remains.

I hope all Israel means “all”, but scripture suggest all Israel is an elect Jewish remnant or alternatively the combined total of elect Jewish remnant and elect Gentiles. Obviously I don’t know because this matter is in God’s hands.

Paul emphasizes God is saving only a “remnant” of them. This is why he mentions that in Elijah’s time only 7,000 of out of ten million Jews didn’t bend the knee to Baal (v.4). In emphasizing the “remnant,” Paul is urging the Jews to repentance. He wants to change the course of events. Paul says that “if they do not persist in their unbelief, they will be grafted back in” (v.23). Since Paul says “if” they don’t persist in unbelieving, the Jews’ conversion is not a given; for Paul, it is still an open question. Because God is saving a “remnant” of the Jews, Paul says he is trying to “save some of them” (v. 14). Paul’s teaching is consistent with Isaiah’s prophecy: “For though your people Israel be as the sand of the sea, only a remnant of them will return” (Isaiah 10:22 and Rom. 9:27)

This will probably be the case with the Gentiles as well. we can pray “all” Jews and “full number” of Gentiles means everybody though.

Peace,

Ryan