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karens1234
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From Catholic (Christian) and Protestant (Christian) and Jehovas Witnesses (Christian) theological pointview, what would be the Eternal Fate of all Jews, who reject Jesus as Go-d/Son of G-d/Messiah/Man of G-d?
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FaithofAbraham
Guest
anti: a person who is opposed to a particular practice, party, policy, action, etc.From Catholic (Christian) and Protestant (Christian) and Jehovas Witnesses (Christian) theological pointview, what would be the Eternal Fate of all Jews, who reject Jesus as Go-d/Son of G-d/Messiah/Man of G-d?
christ: Jesus of Nazareth, held by Christians to be the fulfillment of prophecies in the Old Testament regarding the eventual coming of a Messiah.
Revelation 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
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karens1234
Guest
Very enlightening qoutes, FaithofAbraham. Thanks
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dmelosi
Guest
From a Catholic point of view…We don’t know what is in their heart, only God does.From Catholic (Christian) and Protestant (Christian) and Jehovas Witnesses (Christian) theological pointview, what would be the Eternal Fate of all Jews, who reject Jesus as Go-d/Son of G-d/Messiah/Man of G-d?
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FaithofAbraham
Guest
The question was only for Jews who reject Jesus and take the Mark of the Beast, which is of course the Gentile kingdom who rules Jews instead of Messiah. Like maybe, Gentile powers who enabled the State (whose state?) of Israel to be created, when prophecy says the only legitimate Israel is the one Messiah creates himself. A few Jews see this and cry out to other Jews they are making a big mistake.From a Catholic point of view…We don’t know what is in their heart, only God does.
So Jews who worship that thing instead of following Jesus may not do well as the Bible says. But I’m hoping there is a purgatory where they can have a chance there before the very end.
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dmelosi
Guest
Purgatory is not a second chance. Those in purgatory go to heaven.The question was only for Jews who reject Jesus and take the Mark of the Beast, which is of course the Gentile kingdom who rules Jews instead of Messiah. Like maybe, Gentile powers who enabled the State (whose state?) of Israel to be created, when prophecy says the only legitimate Israel is the one Messiah creates himself. A few Jews see this and cry out to other Jews they are making a big mistake.
So Jews who worship that thing instead of following Jesus may not do well as the Bible says. But I’m hoping there is a purgatory where they can have a chance there before the very end.
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FaithofAbraham
Guest
Hopefully if such Jews have otherwise done good deeds they can go to purgatory and then to heaven. I only hope.Purgatory is not a second chance. Those in purgatory go to heaven.
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dmelosi
Guest
Just trying to understand where you are coming from…the web site link you posted best describes your faith?Hopefully if such Jews have otherwise done good deeds they can go to purgatory and then to heaven. I only hope.
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FaithofAbraham
Guest
On that point, though they are Orthodox Jews who also reject Jesus. Point is, prophecy says Messiah must raise any form of Israel, while a bunch of Zionists with Gentile dollars and weaponry is not quite the image of the prophesied Messiah. And especially not the Jesus version of Messiah.Just trying to understand where you are coming from…the web site link you posted best describes your faith?
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dmelosi
Guest
So the belief in that site best describes your faith?On that point, though they are Orthodox Jews who also reject Jesus. Point is, prophecy says Messiah must raise any form of Israel, while a bunch of Zionists with Gentile dollars and weaponry is not quite the image of the prophesied Messiah. And especially not the Jesus version of Messiah.
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FaithofAbraham
Guest
Only the one that says Messiah needs to create Israel as a Holy Nation of God, not that a bunch of men can create Israel as a secular state of the world.So the belief in that site best describes your faith?
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Iloveu2
Guest
Faith of Abraham
I can only say that the Jews gave us Jesus and God loves the Jews with an everlasting love. The hope of the Jews is that their Messiah will come to Israel and all of the world will come to worship their God who is the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. I quote God’s messages to the Jews from the Old T. King James version.
“That every man will turn from his evil way, then I will forgive their iniquity and their sin.” (Jeremiah 36:3)
“Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts, and let him return to [YHWH], and He will have compassion on him; and to our [Elohiym]. for He will abundantly pardon.” (Isaiah 55:7)
“And if My people who are called by My name humble themselves and pray, and seek My face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.” (II Chronicles 7:14).
"But if the wicked man turns from all his sins which he has committed and observes all My statutes and practices justice and righteousness, he shall surely live; he shall not die. All his transgressions which he has committed will not be remembered against him; because of the righteousness which he has practiced he shall live…When a wicked man turns away from his wickedness which he has committed and practices justice and righteousness, he will save his life…Repent and turn away from all your transgressions, so that iniquity may not become a stumbling block to you (Ezekiel 18:21- 22,27,30).
“By loving kindness and truth iniquity is atoned for…” (Proverbs 16:6).
“If you return to [Elohiym] you will be restored; if you remove unrighteousness far from your tent…then you will delight in [Elohiym]…” (Job 22:23-27).
“What are your multiplied sacrifices to Me? says [YHWH]. I have had enough of burnt offerings of rams, and the fat of fed cattle. And I take no pleasure in the blood of bulls, lambs, or goats…Wash yourselves, make yourselves clean; remove the evil of your deeds from My sight. Cease to do evil, learn to do good; seek justice, reprove the ruthless , defend the orphan, plead for the widow. Come let us reason together says [YHWH], 'Though your sins are as scarlet, they will be white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they will be like wool, if you consent and obey…”(Isaiah 1:11-18).
“The sacrifice of the wicked is an abomination to the Lord.” (Proverbs 15:8).
“To do righteousness and justice is more acceptable to [YHWH] than sacrifice.” (Proverbs 21:3)
“For I delight in loyalty rather than sacrifice, and in the knowledge of [Elohiym] rather than burnt offerings.” (Hosea 6:6).
“Has [YHWH] as great a delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices as in obeying the voice of the Lord? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken more than the fat of rams.” (I Samuel 15:22)
“With what shall I come to [YHWH], and bow myself before the [Elohiym] on high? Shall I come to Him with burnt offerings, with yearling calves? Does [YHWH] take delight in thousands of rams, in ten thousand rivers of oil? Shall I present my firstborn for my rebellious acts, the fruit of my body for the sin of my soul? He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does [YHWH] require of you but to do justice, to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God” (Micah 6:6-8)
Do you now begin to see what the very wise king Solomon was trying to explain in 1 Kings 8, when he said that even though the Israelite people may not always have access to the sacrifices and the Priesthood, they would always have access to the Holy One of Israel. Solomon, the wisest man who ever lived by gift of CREATOR of Israel, understood tha t repentance and not blood is the Scriptural form of atonement.
How did Daniel advise king Nebuchadnezzar to atone for his sins?
“Therefore, O king, may my advice be pleasing to you: Redeem your sins by doing righteousness, and your iniquities by showing mercy to the poor.” (Daniel 4:27). The True Power of Prayer
After the ten northern tribes split away from Judah, a civil war prevented most of Israel from Temple worship. The prophet Hosea addressed this situation and instructed the people accordingly:
“Return, O Israel, to [YHWH] your God, For you have stumbled because of your iniquity. Take words with you and return to [YHWH]. Say to Him, ‘Take away all iniquity, and receive us graciously, for we will render as bullocks the offerings of our lips’.” (Hosea 14:-1-2)
continued next post
I can only say that the Jews gave us Jesus and God loves the Jews with an everlasting love. The hope of the Jews is that their Messiah will come to Israel and all of the world will come to worship their God who is the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. I quote God’s messages to the Jews from the Old T. King James version.
“That every man will turn from his evil way, then I will forgive their iniquity and their sin.” (Jeremiah 36:3)
“Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts, and let him return to [YHWH], and He will have compassion on him; and to our [Elohiym]. for He will abundantly pardon.” (Isaiah 55:7)
“And if My people who are called by My name humble themselves and pray, and seek My face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.” (II Chronicles 7:14).
"But if the wicked man turns from all his sins which he has committed and observes all My statutes and practices justice and righteousness, he shall surely live; he shall not die. All his transgressions which he has committed will not be remembered against him; because of the righteousness which he has practiced he shall live…When a wicked man turns away from his wickedness which he has committed and practices justice and righteousness, he will save his life…Repent and turn away from all your transgressions, so that iniquity may not become a stumbling block to you (Ezekiel 18:21- 22,27,30).
“By loving kindness and truth iniquity is atoned for…” (Proverbs 16:6).
“If you return to [Elohiym] you will be restored; if you remove unrighteousness far from your tent…then you will delight in [Elohiym]…” (Job 22:23-27).
“What are your multiplied sacrifices to Me? says [YHWH]. I have had enough of burnt offerings of rams, and the fat of fed cattle. And I take no pleasure in the blood of bulls, lambs, or goats…Wash yourselves, make yourselves clean; remove the evil of your deeds from My sight. Cease to do evil, learn to do good; seek justice, reprove the ruthless , defend the orphan, plead for the widow. Come let us reason together says [YHWH], 'Though your sins are as scarlet, they will be white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they will be like wool, if you consent and obey…”(Isaiah 1:11-18).
“The sacrifice of the wicked is an abomination to the Lord.” (Proverbs 15:8).
“To do righteousness and justice is more acceptable to [YHWH] than sacrifice.” (Proverbs 21:3)
“For I delight in loyalty rather than sacrifice, and in the knowledge of [Elohiym] rather than burnt offerings.” (Hosea 6:6).
“Has [YHWH] as great a delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices as in obeying the voice of the Lord? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken more than the fat of rams.” (I Samuel 15:22)
“With what shall I come to [YHWH], and bow myself before the [Elohiym] on high? Shall I come to Him with burnt offerings, with yearling calves? Does [YHWH] take delight in thousands of rams, in ten thousand rivers of oil? Shall I present my firstborn for my rebellious acts, the fruit of my body for the sin of my soul? He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does [YHWH] require of you but to do justice, to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God” (Micah 6:6-8)
Do you now begin to see what the very wise king Solomon was trying to explain in 1 Kings 8, when he said that even though the Israelite people may not always have access to the sacrifices and the Priesthood, they would always have access to the Holy One of Israel. Solomon, the wisest man who ever lived by gift of CREATOR of Israel, understood tha t repentance and not blood is the Scriptural form of atonement.
How did Daniel advise king Nebuchadnezzar to atone for his sins?
“Therefore, O king, may my advice be pleasing to you: Redeem your sins by doing righteousness, and your iniquities by showing mercy to the poor.” (Daniel 4:27). The True Power of Prayer
After the ten northern tribes split away from Judah, a civil war prevented most of Israel from Temple worship. The prophet Hosea addressed this situation and instructed the people accordingly:
“Return, O Israel, to [YHWH] your God, For you have stumbled because of your iniquity. Take words with you and return to [YHWH]. Say to Him, ‘Take away all iniquity, and receive us graciously, for we will render as bullocks the offerings of our lips’.” (Hosea 14:-1-2)
continued next post
I
Iloveu2
Guest
Continued:
I quote from the King James bible:
We are able to approach our CREATOR directly with prayer, which is possible at all times and regardless of the size of our bank accounts; and He assures us that sincere prayer can achieve forgiveness for our sins:
“Deliver me from blood-guiltiness, O [YHWH], the [Elohiym] of my salvation. And my tongue shall sing aloud of Your righteousness. O [YHWH], open my lips, and my mouth shall show forth Your praise. For You do not delight in burnt offerings. The sacrifices of [Elohiym] are a broken spirit, a broken and contrite heart. These, O [Elohiym], You will no t despise.” (Psalms 51:14-17)"
“I will praise the name of [Elohiym] with a song, and will magnify Him with thanksgiving. This shall please [YHWH] better than an ox or bullock that has horns and hoofs.” (Psalm 69:30-31)
“For You, [YHWH], are good, and ready to forgive, and abundant in loving kindness to all who call upon You. Give ear, O [YHWH] to my prayer, and give heed to the voice of my supplications.” (Psalm 86:5-6)
“And listen to the supplications of Your servant and of Your people Israel, when they pray toward this place; hear from heaven Your dwelling place, hear and forgive.” (II Chronicles 6:21)
The Holy Scripturesof Israel are very clear. Prayer, a humble attitude, and above all, sincere heartfelt repentance is what the Holy One of Israel requires of His people in order to atone for sins.
I quote from the King James bible:
We are able to approach our CREATOR directly with prayer, which is possible at all times and regardless of the size of our bank accounts; and He assures us that sincere prayer can achieve forgiveness for our sins:
“Deliver me from blood-guiltiness, O [YHWH], the [Elohiym] of my salvation. And my tongue shall sing aloud of Your righteousness. O [YHWH], open my lips, and my mouth shall show forth Your praise. For You do not delight in burnt offerings. The sacrifices of [Elohiym] are a broken spirit, a broken and contrite heart. These, O [Elohiym], You will no t despise.” (Psalms 51:14-17)"
“I will praise the name of [Elohiym] with a song, and will magnify Him with thanksgiving. This shall please [YHWH] better than an ox or bullock that has horns and hoofs.” (Psalm 69:30-31)
“For You, [YHWH], are good, and ready to forgive, and abundant in loving kindness to all who call upon You. Give ear, O [YHWH] to my prayer, and give heed to the voice of my supplications.” (Psalm 86:5-6)
“And listen to the supplications of Your servant and of Your people Israel, when they pray toward this place; hear from heaven Your dwelling place, hear and forgive.” (II Chronicles 6:21)
The Holy Scripturesof Israel are very clear. Prayer, a humble attitude, and above all, sincere heartfelt repentance is what the Holy One of Israel requires of His people in order to atone for sins.
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FaithofAbraham
Guest
Well that’s the hope. Depends which Jews you are talking about. Problem is today, Jews can be born of a Jewish mother then go on to be atheists or Buddhists or whatever and still be considered Jews. Not because they are a race of people, since Jews can be any race, but because that’s the religious law they developed for themselves.Faith of Abraham
I can only say that the Jews gave us Jesus and God loves the Jews with an everlasting love. The hope of the Jews is that their Messiah will come to Israel and all of the world will come to worship their God who is the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. I quote God’s messages to the Jews from the Old T. King James version.
So not every Jew believes in God, and most Jews reject Jesus. So thus far, it doesn’t look too good for most of them.
V
Valke2
Guest
Jews are not “anti” Christ. Christ plays no part in our theology and our theology is not set up to oppose Christians. I am not anti-fish because I don’t eat Tuna.anti: a person who is opposed to a particular practice, party, policy, action, etc.
christ: Jesus of Nazareth, held by Christians to be the fulfillment of prophecies in the Old Testament regarding the eventual coming of a Messiah.
Revelation 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
V
Valke2
Guest
Which prophecy are you referring to?On that point, though they are Orthodox Jews who also reject Jesus. Point is, prophecy says Messiah must raise any form of Israel, while a bunch of Zionists with Gentile dollars and weaponry is not quite the image of the prophesied Messiah. And especially not the Jesus version of Messiah.
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FaithofAbraham
Guest
If you reject Jesus as Messiah that’s what it means.Jews are not “anti” Christ. Christ plays no part in our theology and our theology is not set up to oppose Christians. I am not anti-fish because I don’t eat Tuna.
1 John 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
1 John 2:23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.
Not necessarily that you are little Damien with 666 on your noggin.
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FaithofAbraham
Guest
Isaiah 49:6 And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth.Which prophecy are you referring to?
Which is the same servant and Messiah Jews say can’t be Jesus since Jesus died before doing all that:
Isaiah 42:1 Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles.
Isaiah 42:4 He shall not fail nor be discouraged, till he have set judgment in the earth: and the isles shall wait for his law.
I
Iloveu2
Guest
Faith of Abraham
Did you read what God says to the Jews in my posts above?
Is God lying? Is the bible a lie? If the verses I quoted above aren’t true then how do we know the prophecies about Jesus are true in the Old T. ? Do we pick and choose what to believe?
Without the prophecies about Jesus in the Old T. Christianity falls apart in regards to the Christian Messiah don’t you think?
God tells the Jews in the Old T. that a man cannot be God. Should any man say he is God or claim to be God he is to be killed. God further says : “Hear O Israel, the Lord thy God is one” and goes on to tell the Jews that when they saw God or heard God there was no other God with him. The Christian concept of the Trinity was developed many years after the death of Jesus.
The Jews say that the Christians worship a man. I agree to some extent except I call Jesus a man god. He was in some mysterious way both human and divine but in another sense he was a prophet, a man, whose prophecy in the New T. did not come true and wasn’t fulfilled. He failed the Jewish test of a prophet.
Did you read what God says to the Jews in my posts above?
Is God lying? Is the bible a lie? If the verses I quoted above aren’t true then how do we know the prophecies about Jesus are true in the Old T. ? Do we pick and choose what to believe?
Without the prophecies about Jesus in the Old T. Christianity falls apart in regards to the Christian Messiah don’t you think?
God tells the Jews in the Old T. that a man cannot be God. Should any man say he is God or claim to be God he is to be killed. God further says : “Hear O Israel, the Lord thy God is one” and goes on to tell the Jews that when they saw God or heard God there was no other God with him. The Christian concept of the Trinity was developed many years after the death of Jesus.
The Jews say that the Christians worship a man. I agree to some extent except I call Jesus a man god. He was in some mysterious way both human and divine but in another sense he was a prophet, a man, whose prophecy in the New T. did not come true and wasn’t fulfilled. He failed the Jewish test of a prophet.
V
Valke2
Guest
I view both these prophecies to be referencing the people/nation of Israel, when referring to servant. Israel is often spoken of as the servant in IsaiahIsaiah 49:6 And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth.
Which is the same servant and Messiah Jews say can’t be Jesus since Jesus died before doing all that:
Isaiah 42:1 Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles.
Isaiah 42:4 He shall not fail nor be discouraged, till he have set judgment in the earth: and the isles shall wait for his law.
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