Jews' Eternal Fate?

[dmelosi]

We Jews have been around more than three millenium

We have watched while you worshipped Christ and Mithras and Osiris and Tammuz and Adonis and Balder and Attis and Dionysus and Hercules and Perseus and Theseus. You have worshipped them all and believed them all to be gods They have all had virgin mothers and they have all had devine fathers. They have all died and they have have all been resurrected.

And the Jews eternal fate? To believe in the one and only God.

Catholics worshipped all of the above? I must have missed several chapters.

 

[ckonrad]

Catholics worshipped all of the above? I must have missed several chapters.

He was not speaking of catholics specifically, he was speaking about paganism in general because jews view christianity as a pagan religion.

 

[ckonrad]

I do have a sincere desire to know the truth. Perhaps this is why I am Jewish.

as long as a person is following the dicatates of their conscience to the best of their ability then they are on the right track. There might be alot of different reasons why someone does not see the truth of the gospel. It could be that the holy spirit is not guiding that person, or perhaps the holy spirit is guiding that person and there are alot of psychological and cultural factors involved. The reason i became a christian is because i had a religious epiphany, it was a moment of complete certainty i had al ways hated christianity prior to my experience.

 

[Valke2]

as long as a person is following the dicatates of their conscience to the best of their ability then they are on the right track. There might be alot of different reasons why someone does not see the truth of the gospel. It could be that the holy spirit is not guiding that person, or perhaps the holy spirit is guiding that person and there are alot of psychological and cultural factors involved. The reason i became a christian is because i had a religious epiphany, it was a moment of complete certainty i had al ways hated christianity prior to my experience.

I too, have had moments of complete certainty. So either the truth is that their are different ways to be with God and to do HIs will, or one of us is mistaken.

 

[ralphinal]

I too, have had moments of complete certainty. So either the truth is that their are different ways to be with God and to do HIs will, or one of us is mistaken.

Valke,

It may be that someone is mistaken, but how much culpability is there? Does it matter how we came to be mistaken? Is it possible that God knows why and how we are mistaken and judges us accordingly?

 

[Valke2]

Valke,

It may be that someone is mistaken, but how much culpability is there? Does it matter how we came to be mistaken? Is it possible that God knows why and how we are mistaken and judges us accordingly?

I don’t think there is any culpability in the examples we are using. To be clear, I believe that your epiphany was just as valid as mine. I believe Judaism and Christianity and Islam are structures that one uses to access God. I don’t necessarily believe one structure is universally more true than the other. But for me, Judaism is the best way to access the Divine.

 

[Reuben_J]

Jews eternal fate? I think the prophecy of the devout and righteous Simeon speaks volume about the Jews.

Lk 2:33-35
The child’s father and mother marveled at what was said about him. Then Simeon blessed them and said to Mary, his mother: **“This child is destined to cause the falling and rising of many in Israel, and to be a sign that will be spoken against, so that the thoughts of many hearts will be revealed. And a sword will pierce your own soul too.” **

There are Jews who accept Jesus wholeheartedly and joyfully; and the are those who reject him. There is no middle ground with Jesus. The widepread rejection of Jesus will be like a sword that pierce Mary’s heart. How sad it is for her to see that the One that was sent to his people, his people recieve him not.

 

[FaithofAbraham]

We Jews have been around more than three millenium

We have watched while you worshipped Christ and Mithras and Osiris and Tammuz and Adonis and Balder and Attis and Dionysus and Hercules and Perseus and Theseus. You have worshipped them all and believed them all to be gods They have all had virgin mothers and they have all had devine fathers. They have all died and they have have all been resurrected.

And the Jews eternal fate? To believe in the one and only God.

I have hope that God understands hesitance to accept Jesus as the pagan demigod presented by Christianity. Although Jews could accept him as I do…

But anyway, most Jews in general must get tougher on disapproving of fellow atheist Jews who don’t even believe in God and say it is all nonsense, else your last paragraph rings hollow. As it is, I see many many secular Jews worshiping Jewishness more than they worship God, and those who are devout not saying a whole lot against that. So this needs to change.

 

[Hastrman]

I have hope that God understands hesitance to accept Jesus as the pagan demigod presented by Christianity. Although Jews could accept him as I do…

You accept a Jewish teacher who claimed to be God? Oh, you’ll say, but I have utterly arbitrary reasons for discounting those portions of the Gospel, while accepting others of exactly the same style, date, authorship–because of an a priori conviction I have that Jesus did not claim to be God.

I would argue that any Jew that keeps the Torah is saved, since God promised them they would be (keeping Torah, by their interpretation, not being how they’re saved, but the sign of the acceptation of salvation). The only advantages to a Jew, from a Christian perspective, of becoming Christian, is no longer being subject to the requirements of Torah…and acting on a fuller knowledge of the universe.

 

[FaithofAbraham]

You accept a Jewish teacher who claimed to be God? Oh, you’ll say, but I have utterly arbitrary reasons for discounting those portions of the Gospel, while accepting others of exactly the same style, date, authorship–because of an a priori conviction I have that Jesus did not claim to be God.

Jesus never said he is God in the NT.

I would argue that any Jew that keeps the Torah is saved, since God promised them they would be (keeping Torah, by their interpretation, not being how they’re saved, but the sign of the acceptation of salvation). The only advantages to a Jew, from a Christian perspective, of becoming Christian, is no longer being subject to the requirements of Torah…and acting on a fuller knowledge of the universe.

Jesus said Jews still have to observe Torah if they accept him as Messiah. I’m not advising becoming Christian either.

But either now or later, Jews will need to deal with Jesus. And so it is best if they accept him as I do, Messiah that rules with God’s power, but not born a God.

 

[patrick457]

I have Catholic relatives and friends who to the best of my knowledge don’t read the Old T. very much or have a good knowledge of their Jewish roots. You know for many many years the Catholics weren’t allowed to read the bible. Consequently some still may not spend much time on it.

Very sorry to nitpick, but I just don’t like that old red herring about Catholics being prohibited to read the Bible being repeated over and over.

 

[Hastrman]

Jesus never said he is God in the NT.

“Before Abraham was, I AM.” What exactly do you think he meant? You claim to know the theological interpretation better than the people who founded modern Judaism? A number of them, the Pharisee sect, got very p.o.ed when he said that, since there’s only one possible meaning.

He didn’t, you’ll note, say, “I’m God.” He merely presumed to speak Ha-Shem, which no Jew ever did except once a year (and then, I believe only a Cohan could do it) and claim it as his own name. In other words, he claimed specifically to be the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

Jesus said Jews still have to observe Torah if they accept him as Messiah. I’m not advising becoming Christian either.

But either now or later, Jews will need to deal with Jesus. And so it is best if they accept him as I do, Messiah that rules with God’s power, but not born a God.

He is not “a God,” he is God.

And I can’t think of any references to keeping the Law in the Gospel, other than “I did not come to destroy the Law but to fulfill it,” which has in the Greek a connotation of “finish it off”. In other words, they were no longer under the Law, as established by Peter and Paul during the controversies on Kashrut for Christians, recounted in Acts.

 

[FaithofAbraham]

“Before Abraham was, I AM.” What exactly do you think he meant? You claim to know the theological interpretation better than the people who founded modern Judaism? A number of them, the Pharisee sect, got very p.o.ed when he said that, since there’s only one possible meaning.

He didn’t, you’ll note, say, “I’m God.” He merely presumed to speak Ha-Shem, which no Jew ever did except once a year (and then, I believe only a Cohan could do it) and claim it as his own name. In other words, he claimed specifically to be the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

He is not “a God,” he is God.

That entire exchange was Jesus explaining that he is Messiah, which includes being priest after Melchizedek as stated in Psalms. Melchizedek was greater than Abraham, and Abraham was glad to see his day. He also doesn’t take that honor to himself, like Aaron, God gives it to him. This is all clarified in Hebrews, nothing at all to to do with saying he is God.

And I can’t think of any references to keeping the Law in the Gospel, other than “I did not come to destroy the Law but to fulfill it,” which has in the Greek a connotation of “finish it off”. In other words, they were no longer under the Law, as established by Peter and Paul during the controversies on Kashrut for Christians, recounted in Acts.

And right around there Jesus said don’t teach Jews to abandon it, that not one jot nor tittle would pass from the Law until heaven and earth pass. So in Revelation we see that heaven and earth pass after Satan/yetzer hara is gone and there is no need for the Law, anything left in our hearts after that is only goodness.

So this is a clear command that Jews observe Torah. Unless they just want to be Gentiles who don’t, then they just have a few things like Noahide in Acts 15 to follow.

 

[Hastrman]

That entire exchange was Jesus explaining that he is Messiah, which includes being priest after Melchizedek as stated in Psalms. Melchizedek was greater than Abraham, and Abraham was glad to see his day. He also doesn’t take that honor to himself, like Aaron, God gives it to him. This is all clarified in Hebrews, nothing at all to to do with saying he is God.

And yet I sincerely doubt that any Jew would have said “before Abraham was, I AM.” I know Hebrew (or more likely Aramaic) doesn’t have tenses, only aspect (imperfect/perfect), but obviously Abraham’s existential state would be in a different aspect from that of Jesus of Nazareth, talking about himself right now. And there isn’t even that non-ambiguous sense of ambiguity in Greek, the language of the Gospel, there not, I don’t think, being an aorist involved (the aorist tense is very fuzzy–but not on things of this kind). The tenses that would need to be used would make the sentence plain bad grammar in either language.

And right around there Jesus said don’t teach Jews to abandon it, that not one jot nor tittle would pass from the Law until heaven and earth pass. So in Revelation we see that heaven and earth pass after Satan/yetzer hara is gone and there is no need for the Law, anything left in our hearts after that is only goodness.

So this is a clear command that Jews observe Torah. Unless they just want to be Gentiles who don’t, then they just have a few things like Noahide in Acts 15 to follow.

This is certainly not any kind of Jewish interpretation of the Torah that I am acquainted with, especially considering the Christian understanding of Satan in question.

You are also disregarding the whole substance of Acts and Paul concerning the Law as it pertains to Christians.

 

[FaithofAbraham]

And yet I sincerely doubt that any Jew would have said “before Abraham was, I AM.” I know Hebrew (or more likely Aramaic) doesn’t have tenses, only aspect (imperfect/perfect), but obviously Abraham’s existential state would be in a different aspect from that of Jesus of Nazareth, talking about himself right now. And there isn’t even that non-ambiguous sense of ambiguity in Greek, the language of the Gospel, there not, I don’t think, being an aorist involved (the aorist tense is very fuzzy–but not on things of this kind). The tenses that would need to be used would make the sentence plain bad grammar in either language.

The blind man used the same phrase:

John 9:8-9 The neighbours therefore, and they which before had seen him that he was blind, said, Is not this he that sat and begged? Some said, This is he: others said, He is like him: but he said, I AM (he).

So when Jesus says

John 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I AM (he).

Who was Abraham before he was Abraham? He was Abram.

Genesis 14:18-19 And Melchizedek king of Salem brought forth bread and wine: and he was the priest of the most high God. And he blessed him, and said, Blessed be Abram of the most high God, possessor of heaven and earth:

I am he that is Melchizedek which is the same as Messiah in Psalms:

John 8:53 Art thou greater than our father Abraham, which is dead? and the prophets are dead: whom makest thou thyself?

Yes, greater than Abraham:

Hebrews 7:4 Now consider how great this man was, unto whom even the patriarch Abraham gave the tenth of the spoils.

John 8:54 Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God:

Hebrews 5:4-6 And no man taketh this honour unto himself, but he that is called of God, as was Aaron. So also Christ glorified not himself to be made an high priest; but he that said unto him, Thou art my Son, to day have I begotten thee. As he saith also in another place, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.

So then, this is who Jesus was saying he was, Messiah and High Priest of God, after Melchizedek. But not Jehovah, which is the Father God of the firstborn son Israel anyway, not Son of God which is actually the name of human Messiah promised to David, not a deity.

2 Samuel 7:14 I will be his father, and he shall be my son. If he commit iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men, and with the stripes of the children of men:

So Christians have it a bit wrong there.

This is certainly not any kind of Jewish interpretation of the Torah that I am acquainted with, especially considering the Christian understanding of Satan in question.

You are also disregarding the whole substance of Acts and Paul concerning the Law as it pertains to Christians.

As far as I know this has always been the standard in Judaism, righteous Gentiles don’t need to fully convert to be Jews and observe Torah, they can follow Noahide instead. Acts was pertaining to new Gentile converts, not to Jews who were required to continue observing Torah, as I stated from commands of Jesus. So Paul never said Jews could abandon Torah and still be Jews.

 

[Hastrman]

John 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I AM (he).

 

[Hastrman]

John 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I AM (he).

 

[Hastrman]

John 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I AM (he).

Who was Abraham before he was Abraham? He was Abram

But you forget, the New Testament is in Greek.

Actually he said,

ειπεν αυτοις Iησους αμην αμην λεγω υμιν πριν Aβρααμ γενεσθαι εγω ειμι

Or, rather sloppily romanized, “eipen autois Iehsous amehn amehn legow umin prin Abraam genesthai egow eimi.”

And then Jesus said, Amen amen I say to you all before Abraham was to come to be (γενεσθαι genesthai, related to “genesis”) I am.

Relatives in Greek are explicitly marked, by the way–if he meant, I am he that was before Abraham, or he that Abraham was before he was Abraham, he would say so. But he said, “prior to Abraham’s coming to be (the beginning of his existence), I am.” Which is flat bad grammar in Greek!

The blind man was just talking about himself, in a present situation, and there could be no ambiguity about either instance.

As far as I know this has always been the standard in Judaism, righteous Gentiles don’t need to fully convert to be Jews and observe Torah, they can follow Noahide instead. Acts was pertaining to new Gentile converts, not to Jews who were required to continue observing Torah, as I stated from commands of Jesus. So Paul never said Jews could abandon Torah and still be Jews.

No, I mean your idea about why Torah is necessary and the role of the Devil; it seems to be informed by an entirely Christian grasp of morality, the Law, and salvation.

 

[ckonrad]

I don’t think there is any culpability in the examples we are using. To be clear, I believe that your epiphany was just as valid as mine. I believe Judaism and Christianity and Islam are structures that one uses to access God. I don’t necessarily believe one structure is universally more true than the other. But for me, Judaism is the best way to access the Divine.

I think you may be getting two responses mixed up or perhaps i am.

Speaking within the context of your view of religions as structures. Have you ever “tried” Christianity before? I’ve tried Judaism and Islam both, also Buddhism, Bahai’ism, and various new age view points throughout my life so far.

When you say that those religions are structures, do you believe that they are man made ways of accessing God or did God create a variety of ways to access Him?

If Christianity is a valid structure to “access” God, did God create Christianity or did man?

 

[FaithofAbraham]

But you forget, the New Testament is in Greek.

Actually he said,

Or, rather sloppily romanized, “eipen autois Iehsous amehn amehn legow umin prin Abraam genesthai egow eimi.”

And then Jesus said, Amen amen I say to you all before Abraham was to come to be (γενεσθαι genesthai, related to “genesis”) I am.

Relatives in Greek are explicitly marked, by the way–if he meant, I am he that was before Abraham, or he that Abraham was before he was Abraham, he would say so. But he said, “prior to Abraham’s coming to be (the beginning of his existence), I am.” Which is flat bad grammar in Greek!

The blind man was just talking about himself, in a present situation, and there could be no ambiguity about either instance.

Jesus was just talking about his Melchizedek priesthood which was around ministering before Abram became Abraham – I am him that you wait for, Messiah who is after Melchizedek. I don’t see where what you say discounts that. Same way the blind man explained who he was.

No, I mean your idea about why Torah is necessary and the role of the Devil; it seems to be informed by an entirely Christian grasp of morality, the Law, and salvation.

Judaism says Satan is yetzer hara, and in the New Covenant God’s Laws are written on their hearts to obey Torah perfectly, hence no interference by yetzer hara. It’s not a uniquely Christian idea.