Jews for Jesus, What they think of us...

Status
Not open for further replies.
D

DiStefano

Guest
I found the following on the WEB and need some help responding to the hurtful language used in this response…

Question
· * Is Roman Catholicism True Christianity? Are Catholics true Christians?*

Answer
· Is Roman Catholicism True Christianity? Are Catholics true Christians?

I feel that it is time for me to speak out about Roman Catholicism. The more I have found out about Roman Catholicism, the more convinced I’ve become that it is a false religious system that can not save its followers. I am even more disturbed because an increasing number of Evangelical leaders, and even some Messianic Jewish leaders, are accepting Roman Catholicism as a valid system that brings salvation (even though it does not).

Why do I believe that Roman Catholicism is a false religious system? Let me offer several reasons: it does not preach the pure Gospel - the simple Message that placing our trust in Yeshua the Messiah will save us. It contradicts the plain teaching of Scripture, that we are saved by God’s grace, not through any of our own human efforts, when we put our faith in Messiah Yeshua alone (see Ephesians 2:8-9). Instead, it has substituted an adulterated system of sacraments, man-made traditions and human efforts through which salvation is allegedly dispensed.

In addition, the Roman Catholic Church has arrogantly declared the bishop of Rome to be the infallible leader of the entirety of Messiah’s Holy Community of Jews and Gentiles (the entire Church). For centuries the Roman Catholic Church persecuted the true Christians, engaged in systematic and deliberate torture, murder, and even genocide. For centuries it was the most anti-Semitic institution on Earth. It has added to the Word of God by acknowledging the Apocrypha as part of the Holy Scriptures. It has added to the Word of God by elevating Catholic tradition, laws and decrees to the same status as the Word of God!

There is no Scriptural support for traditions and practices such as the sacrifice of the mass, purgatory, transubstantiation, prayers and masses and other rituals for the dead, indulgences, the worship of Mary, prayers to the saints, the use of images in worship, holy water, rosary beads and scapulars, a Roman Catholic priesthood, the demand of celibacy from these priests and nuns, and confession to priests to obtain absolution. Far from being supported by the Scriptures, these religious distortions are condemned by the Word of God! The Son of God, who is the Supreme Authority on all matters, especially those of the Faith, warned us that it is hypocritical and deadly to “neglect the commandments of God while holding to the traditions of men,” and that it is possible to “vainly worship God by teaching as doctrine the precepts of men” (Mark 7:6-7).

All this adds up to “Another Gospel” - a Gospel that is foreign, even hostile to the simple Message about having saving faith in the Jewish Messiah. Rabbi Paul, the great apostle to the Gentiles, warned us that if anyone brings “Another Gospel,” they are “accursed” (see Galatians 1:6-9).

Are there Catholics who are born-again? There may be those to whom the Spirit of God reveals the Truth and, for a time, they may remain within the Roman Catholic Sacramental-Works-System; but if they are genuinely spiritually reborn, they will share the pure Message about the need to have faith in Messiah alone, and acceptance of the Word of God alone. They will inevitably find themselves at odds with the deadly errors in Roman Catholicism. If they speak out against these errors, they will find themselves unwelcome, and forced to leave.

Does all this mean that I am “Catholic-bashing?” Does this mean that I hate my Catholic friends? No - not at all! Not if one understands that “the kisses of an enemy are deceitful, but the wounds of a friend are faithful.” The enemy is the false friend who remains silent when his friend is headed toward disaster. The true friend is the one who warns those who are trusting in popes, priests, sacraments, good works, and man-made traditions, rather than trusting in the salvation graciously and freely provided by God for those who have faith in Messiah Yeshua alone. Speaking the truth in love can never be wrong!
 
Sounds like a pretty hateful screed, despite the disingenuous caveat at the end. These accusations are unfounded. An examination of Scripture leads one to Catholicism. It is Catholicism that unites ALL of scripture under the Holy Spirit. This fellow cherry picks phrases from the Bible to tickle his own ears and conveniently forgets about the parable of the talants and many other sayings that obviously refute his errors. Another person blown by the winds of his own ego. 😦
 
  • Okay, I’ll bite to see if others think my reasoning is sound. I’m pretty sure I need more charity, though.*
Why do I believe that Roman Catholicism is a false religious system? Let me offer several reasons: it does not preach the pure Gospel - the simple Message that placing our trust in Yeshua the Messiah will save us.

The pure Gospel? But Jesus did NOT preach that faith alone would save us. Many would cry Lord Lord! The parable of the talents. And many other examples of Jesus performing corporal works as our perfect Model. Pure seems to be a synonym for adulterated Gospel by this poster.

It contradicts the plain teaching of Scripture,

If Scripture is so plain, why are there thousands of Protestant religions? But ONE Holy Catholic Church? Plain here seems to mean “My interpretation”. I’ll trust in Christ’s promise to His Chirch

that we are saved by God’s grace, not through any of our own human efforts, when we put our faith in Messiah Yeshua alone (see Ephesians 2:8-9).

*This sounds like a recipe for burying your gold in the ground. If no works are necessary, why the parable of the Talants and others? That guy who buried his gold in the ground did not do so well. For charity’s sake, remind this fellow before its too late! *

Instead, it has substituted an adulterated system of sacraments, man-made traditions and human efforts through which salvation is allegedly dispensed.
  • Direct him to some tracts on the Eucharist and Penance. Christ explicitly instituted these Sacraments. It amazes me how other Churches justify NOT having the Sacrament of Penance that Christ died to give us and was the FIRST sacrament instituted upon His Ressurection. Someone has explaining to do about their LACK of Sacraments. *
In addition, the Roman Catholic Church has arrogantly declared the bishop of Rome to be the infallible leader of the entirety of Messiah’s Holy Community of Jews and Gentiles (the entire Church).
  • Christ, not the Church declared this Church for EVERYBODY. He explicitly gave Peter the keys.*
For centuries the Roman Catholic Church persecuted the true Christians, engaged in systematic and deliberate torture, murder, and even genocide. For centuries it was the most anti-Semitic institution on Earth.

Men sin, be they in or out of Church. This makes no point.

It has added to the Word of God by acknowledging the Apocrypha as part of the Holy Scriptures. It has added to the Word of God by elevating Catholic tradition, laws and decrees to the same status as the Word of God!

Who declared the Scriptures sacred? And someone would declare the plain gospel, but not reason out who through the Holy Spirit acclaimed the Gospel to the world? Truly blown by the wind!

There is no Scriptural support for traditions and practices . . ., especially those of the Faith, warned us that it is hypocritical and deadly to “neglect the commandments of God while holding to the traditions of men,”

by ignoring the sacraments Christ instituted, it is the speaker who is condemned by his cherry picked Scripture. Anyone with an open heart will see the institution of the Sacraments of Penance and Communion are ** explicitly* by Christ *

and that it is possible to “vainly worship God by teaching as doctrine the precepts of men” (Mark 7:6-7).

*Teaching doctrine that lacks the Eucharist and priesthood established by Christ may lead to vain worship, for you have no promise from Christ to His Church when you set yourself up as the only authority of the Gospels. *

peace
 
DiStefano said:
**It has added to the Word of God by acknowledging the Apocrypha as part of the Holy Scriptures. It has added to the Word of God by elevating Catholic tradition, laws and decrees to the same status as the Word of God!

**

Oh this is always such a fun argument. How can one claim the bible as the word of God and then claim that the Catholic Church, who was responsible, under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, for compiling it is wrong about which books belong? Either it’s the word of God or it’s not. Either they got it right (and you can use it to ummmm condemn how they got it right?) or they didn’t and it’s therefore fallible and you can’t use it to condemn how they got it wrong. Can’t have it both ways guys.

And I love it when they say we added books. It’s like saying my uncle took my birthday. He was born first. I took his. No way around that one. They took books out. And if you’ve read Sirach, I’m sure you’ll agree they took one of the best out.
 
MichaelTDoyle said:
* Okay, I’ll bite to see if others think my reasoning is sound. I’m pretty sure I need more charity, though.*

Why do I believe that Roman Catholicism is a false religious system? Let me offer several reasons: it does not preach the pure Gospel - the simple Message that placing our trust in Yeshua the Messiah will save us.

The pure Gospel? But Jesus did NOT preach that faith alone would save us. Many would cry Lord Lord! The parable of the talents. And many other examples of Jesus performing corporal works as our perfect Model. Pure seems to be a synonym for adulterated Gospel by this poster.

Also, what does “placing our trust in Yeshua the Messiah” entail?
What does that mean?


It contradicts the plain teaching of Scripture,

If Scripture is so plain, why are there thousands of Protestant religions? But ONE Holy Catholic Church? Plain here seems to mean “My interpretation”. I’ll trust in Christ’s promise to His Chirch

Amen Brotha!


that we are saved by God’s grace, not through any of our own human efforts, when we put our faith in Messiah Yeshua alone (see Ephesians 2:8-9).

*This sounds like a recipe for burying your gold in the ground. If no works are necessary, why the parable of the Talants and others? That guy who buried his gold in the ground did not do so well. For charity’s sake, remind this fellow before its too late! *

Amen Jewish Brotha! The Catholic Church does indeed teach that we are saved by Grace alone, but we have to respond to that grace thru faith and good works.

Instead, it has substituted an adulterated system of sacraments, man-made traditions and human efforts through which salvation is allegedly dispensed.
  • Direct him to some tracts on the Eucharist and Penance. Christ explicitly* instituted these Sacraments. It amazes me how other Churches justify NOT having the Sacrament of Penance that Christ died to give us and was the FIRST sacrament instituted upon His Ressurection. Someone has explaining to do about their LACK of Sacraments.
In addition, the Roman Catholic Church has arrogantly declared the bishop of Rome to be the infallible leader of the entirety of Messiah’s Holy Community of Jews and Gentiles (the entire Church).
  • Christ, not the Church declared this Church for EVERYBODY. He explicitly gave Peter the keys.*
For centuries the Roman Catholic Church persecuted the true Christians, engaged in systematic and deliberate torture, murder, and even genocide. For centuries it was the most anti-Semitic institution on Earth.

Men sin, be they in or out of Church. This makes no point.

The church is God’s Hospital, not God’s spa! There have been and there always will be sinners in the Church, including you and I.


It has added to the Word of God by acknowledging the Apocrypha as part of the Holy Scriptures. It has added to the Word of God by elevating Catholic tradition, laws and decrees to the same status as the Word of God!

Who declared the Scriptures sacred? And someone would declare the plain gospel, but not reason out who through the Holy Spirit acclaimed the Gospel to the world? Truly blown by the wind!

There is no Scriptural support for traditions and practices . . ., especially those of the Faith, warned us that it is hypocritical and deadly to “neglect the commandments of God while holding to the traditions of men,”

by ignoring the sacraments Christ instituted, it is the speaker who is condemned by his cherry picked Scripture. Anyone with an open heart will see the institution of the Sacraments of Penance and Communion are ** explicitly** by Christ

*Again, Amen, Jewish Brotha- it is wrong to hold onto the traditions of men. It is however, Christlike to "hold the traditions which you have learned, whether by word, or by our epistle (2 Thessalonians 2:14). These are the traditions which the Catholic Church holds. They are not the traditions of men. Also, 1 Corinthians 11:2. *

and that it is possible to “vainly worship God by teaching as doctrine the precepts of men” (Mark 7:6-7).

*Teaching doctrine that lacks the Eucharist and priesthood established by Christ may lead to vain worship, for you have no promise from Christ to His Church when you set yourself up as the only authority of the Gospels. *

Again, Amen Brotha! NOT teaching what Christ taught-the sacraments etc- are indeed the “precepts of men”. I concur that this indeed, does lead to vain worship of God.

peace
 
MichaelTDoyle said:
* Okay, I’ll bite to see if others think my reasoning is sound. I’m pretty sure I need more charity, though.*

Why do I believe that Roman Catholicism is a false religious system? Let me offer several reasons: it does not preach the pure Gospel - the simple Message that placing our trust in Yeshua the Messiah will save us.

The pure Gospel? But Jesus did NOT preach that faith alone would save us. Many would cry Lord Lord! The parable of the talents. And many other examples of Jesus performing corporal works as our perfect Model. Pure seems to be a synonym for adulterated Gospel by this poster.

It contradicts the plain teaching of Scripture,

If Scripture is so plain, why are there thousands of Protestant religions? But ONE Holy Catholic Church? Plain here seems to mean “My interpretation”. I’ll trust in Christ’s promise to His Chirch

that we are saved by God’s grace, not through any of our own human efforts, when we put our faith in Messiah Yeshua alone (see Ephesians 2:8-9).

*This sounds like a recipe for burying your gold in the ground. If no works are necessary, why the parable of the Talants and others? That guy who buried his gold in the ground did not do so well. For charity’s sake, remind this fellow before its too late! *

Instead, it has substituted an adulterated system of sacraments, man-made traditions and human efforts through which salvation is allegedly dispensed.
  • Direct him to some tracts on the Eucharist and Penance. Christ explicitly* instituted these Sacraments. It amazes me how other Churches justify NOT having the Sacrament of Penance that Christ died to give us and was the FIRST sacrament instituted upon His Ressurection. Someone has explaining to do about their LACK of Sacraments.
In addition, the Roman Catholic Church has arrogantly declared the bishop of Rome to be the infallible leader of the entirety of Messiah’s Holy Community of Jews and Gentiles (the entire Church).
  • Christ, not the Church declared this Church for EVERYBODY. He explicitly gave Peter the keys.*
For centuries the Roman Catholic Church persecuted the true Christians, engaged in systematic and deliberate torture, murder, and even genocide. For centuries it was the most anti-Semitic institution on Earth.

Men sin, be they in or out of Church. This makes no point.

It has added to the Word of God by acknowledging the Apocrypha as part of the Holy Scriptures. It has added to the Word of God by elevating Catholic tradition, laws and decrees to the same status as the Word of God!

Who declared the Scriptures sacred? And someone would declare the plain gospel, but not reason out who through the Holy Spirit acclaimed the Gospel to the world? Truly blown by the wind!

There is no Scriptural support for traditions and practices . . ., especially those of the Faith, warned us that it is hypocritical and deadly to “neglect the commandments of God while holding to the traditions of men,”

by ignoring the sacraments Christ instituted, it is the speaker who is condemned by his cherry picked Scripture. Anyone with an open heart will see the institution of the Sacraments of Penance and Communion are ** explicitly** by Christ

and that it is possible to “vainly worship God by teaching as doctrine the precepts of men” (Mark 7:6-7).

*Teaching doctrine that lacks the Eucharist and priesthood established by Christ may lead to vain worship, for you have no promise from Christ to His Church when you set yourself up as the only authority of the Gospels. *

peace
 
Salvation Is From The Jews by Roy Schoeman is a very good book putting things in perspective from a Jewish convert. He also mentions many other famous converts.
 
First, I’d recommend these sites:

hebrewcatholic.org/
secondexodus.com/

As for the questions, I’ll take a stab at it:
it does not preach the pure Gospel - the simple Message that placing our trust in Yeshua the Messiah will save us. It contradicts the plain teaching of Scripture, that we are saved by God’s grace, not through any of our own human efforts, when we put our faith in Messiah Yeshua alone (see Ephesians 2:8-9).
Interestingly, Eph 2:8-9 is referring to works of the law. And the very next verse (i.e. v10) says that God created us so that we would do good works. So apostle Paul was speaking of two things: works of the law (particularly the references to circumcision in Eph 2:11, and the regulations mentioned in Eph 2:15) and works unto righteousness (v 10)
Instead, it has substituted an adulterated system of sacraments, man-made traditions and human efforts through which salvation is allegedly dispensed.
Sacraments of Baptism and Eucharist were commanded by Christ. Sola scripture and sola fide are actually man-made traditions. God created us so that we would do good works (Eph 2:10)
In addition, the Roman Catholic Church has arrogantly declared the bishop of Rome to be the infallible leader of the entirety of Messiah’s Holy Community of Jews and Gentiles (the entire Church).
It’s obvious the guy didn’t understand papal infallibility.
For centuries the Roman Catholic Church persecuted the true Christians, engaged in systematic and deliberate torture, murder, and even genocide.
Protestants did the exact same thing. I suppose that means they can’t be the ‘true church’ either.
It has added to the Word of God by acknowledging the Apocrypha as part of the Holy Scriptures. It has added to the Word of God by elevating Catholic tradition, laws and decrees to the same status as the Word of God!
Both Sacred Tradition and Sacred Scripture are mentioned in 2 Thess 2:15. The Bible as it is today came about via Sacred Tradition. The ‘apocrypha’ was always in the Bible when it was canonized in the 4th century.
There is no Scriptural support for traditions and practices such as the sacrifice of the mass, purgatory, transubstantiation, prayers and masses and other rituals for the dead, indulgences, the worship of Mary, prayers to the saints, the use of images in worship, holy water, rosary beads and scapulars, a Roman Catholic priesthood, the demand of celibacy from these priests and nuns, and confession to priests to obtain absolution.
Just to be brief, most of the how everything is worded there is distorted version of Catholicism, especially about ‘mary worship’.
All this adds up to “Another Gospel?- a Gospel that is foreign, even hostile to the simple Message about having saving faith in the Jewish Messiah. Rabbi Paul, the great apostle to the Gentiles, warned us that if anyone brings “Another Gospel,?they are “accursed?(see Galatians 1:6-9).
this ‘another gospel’ was a reference to the Judaizers who were preaching circumcision as a requirement for salvation (Act 15:1,5). In fact that’s virtually what the entire book is about (I’d recommend reading through all of it, it’s fairly short and quick).
Are there Catholics who are born-again? There may be those to whom the Spirit of God reveals the Truth and, for a time, they may remain within the Roman Catholic Sacramental-Works-System; but if they are genuinely spiritually reborn, they will share the pure Message about the need to have faith in Messiah alone, and acceptance of the Word of God alone.
Faith alone doctrine is unbiblica. And the only time scripture says ‘faith alone’ is when James says, "You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone.’ (James 2:24)

Jesus, John and Paul taught that salvation is based on works as well as faith.

Guess I’ll end with this:

“For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.” (Gal 5:6, KJV)
 
How can DiStefano say there is no scriptural support for transubstantation (did I spell that right?) ??
Didn’t Jesus say at the Last Supper, “This is my Body, This is my Blood, Do this in memory of me” ??
I am sure I read that in the Bible.
Lov Kellie
 
I think this entire thread should best be handled by one of the staff apologists as there is WAY too much to cover in this type of format. I am not even sure if the originator of the thread even wants an answer, but rather an audience to spew his antagonism :confused: . Unfortunately, he couldn’t make one original point, as everything that he brought up has been rebutted again and again by Catholic apologist for the last 2,000 years.
 
I found the following on the WEB and need some help responding to the hurtful language used in this response…
I think DiStefano was looking for answers too…

Anxiously awaiting an apologetics view-
 
Shiann, I am inclined in this instance to agree with Apologia though to distrust a poster in a public forum such as this seems un-Christian. But honestly, a good use of the Catholic Answers website would give DiStefano answers to the “hurtful” attacks made, it’s basically a course in how to pursue apologetics. All of those points are well addressed in the tracts and library, and further, the source of the hurtful attacks is not mentioned in the post, nor has DiStefano replied or posted further items in any other threads. I think this might be an item that Karl and company want to take a closer look at. DiStefano, if the thread is indeed sincere, please forgive my words, and I think that you will find the tracts very helpful in addressing your concerns, and would advise you to use them. You can get to them through the same site that directed you to the forum, that is catholic.com. They are listed to the side, and address all of the questions listed in the diatribe.
 
Ladies and gentlemen,
Thank you dearly for the opinion, research and response to my posting. I am familiar with the apologetical approach to this line of harassment. I was hoping for a compassionate approach/model to follow to sway persuade our brothers. A few of you were curious about my motives, I can only assert that they are genuine and share this personal story…

My father passed away nearly 3 years ago. Upon his death I learned that he was born of a Jewish mother, My grandmother. This was hidden from all of us. He was raised as a Catholic yet somehow was only confirmed in his seventies. He was so concerned about how he perceived that this would affect his salvation that he confessed this to his Priest in his final reconciliation and later to me. I since have learned a great deal about the Jewish faith and am continuing to study. I think this should have been a source of great pride rather than angst for him. His generation, sadly, didn’t see it that way.

I am still seeking a more conciliatory model to respond to this posting. Oh, and the website if you are interested to respond directly is…

shema.com/

erat en principio, et nunc et semper, et secula seculorem

DiStefano
👍
 
Wow. I prolly wasn’t any help, but I wanted to thank you for sharing. Always charity in everything. That’s why I really need to be careful in these religous boards as I get so intense so quickly. I forget that we’re in this together to grow in holiness helping each other.

I wish you the best and hope you share here whatever charitable answers you find.

God bless you,

Mike
 
40.png
DiStefano:
Ladies and gentlemen,
Thank you dearly for the opinion, research and response to my posting. I am familiar with the apologetical approach to this line of harassment. I was hoping for a compassionate approach/model to follow to sway persuade our brothers.
DiStefano, I cannot say how sorry I am. 😦 Please accept my apologies for my words and my condolences on the loss of your father. I understand what your father went through to some extent, I myself am the daughter of a Catholic priest, and I know what it is like to be ashamed of your parentage and feel as though it somehow impugnes your own standing in the church. In your father’s case however, Christ himself was born of a Jewish mother. That in and of itself gives you some comfort I hope. But don’t be too hard on him either, it is so hard to come to terms with your parentage because you truly don’t have any control over it, yet your faith beckons you home to the church that you feel condemned by. The church doesn’t condemn you, it doesn’t condemn me, it certainly doesn’t condemn your father. It recognizes that Christ and the first apostles were all Jews. God chose the Jewish people because Abraham recognized Him as the one true God. It’s easy in this day and age to lose sight of how rare mono-theism was at that time. It is a really tough battle, so keep him in your prayers, and don’t succumb to the pitfalls that call outside the church. I know the battle and I know how tough it is. I will be praying for you.
 
40.png
DiStefano:
(the article wrote) Does all this mean that I am “Catholic-bashing?” Does this mean that I hate my Catholic friends?
Heh. Whoever wrote that article is lying to themselves.

Their mirror cracks the whip on them.

You really need to listen to Rosalind Moss. She says that she was not fully Jewish until she became Catholic. She’s got some great ways of thinking of the Catholic Church from a Jewish point of view.
 
You may have received a less than cordial greeting from some because “Jews for Jesus” from my experience is not friendly to the Catholic Church. I am very interested in the Jewish Roots of Catholicism. (Ros Moss has a tape set by that name). You might be interested in the Association of Hebrew Catholics lead by her brother David, or in www.secondexodus.com. by another Hebrew Catholic. Many of Scott Hahns books teach about our Jewish Roots. I do pray you find the fullness of the truth which is Jesus Christ and the Catholic Church which is His Body on earth.
 
I think Rosalind Moss has a wealth of knowledge on this subject. Check out catholic.com for her books and tapes. Although I was born a Catholic, I married a Jewish man and converted (had an Orthodox conversion) to Judaism. We had two children and I truly immersed myself in Judaism. We divorced after 10 years and I remained Jewish for 7 years after that. I reconciled with the Catholic Church after 17 years of being a Jew. I can tell you that I could not be the kind of Catholic I am today if I did not have the Jewish background that I have. I wish all Catholics (or even all Christians) learned more of Jesus’ Jewish roots. Christianity is really the completion of the Jewish faith. It’s too bad that Catholics don’t continue to celebrate the so-called Jewish holidays that Jesus celebrated. What a connection I feel to Jesus as I continue even as a Catholic to celebrate Passover (really the Last Supper) and Sukkot and other Jewish holidays that are mentioned in the Gospels! In some ways Jews for Jesus are more complete Christians than Catholics are!
 
i am not dealing with any of the statements from the article which started this thread. my purpose in this is to say that the organization “Jews for Jesus”, in my experience, is not anti-catholic anymore than the methodist or episcopalian churches. sure, it is a protestant organization which means it is going to disagree with some of the tenets of catholicism, but they do not (again in my experience) concern themselves with the catholic church as much as they concern themselves in an area where the entire body of Christ (catholic, protestant, orthodox, whatever) have failed miserably and that is bringing the truth of Christ to the people of God. we might not agree with everything they say doctrinally but they have the basics down (that Jesus is the promised messiah and salvation is found in Him). my point is that (it seems) that article at the beginning was for a specific messianic congregation and isn’t put forth by “jews for jesus” organization. their website, as far as i could tell and from talking with people who work for them, does not encourage the bashing of any Christian denomination and they also do not believe that catholics can’t be saved. i just wanted to put into perspective that this was a single congregation and not the entire organization of jews for jesus. now please, continue defending the faith as i find it valuable reading for my own faith.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top