Jews - Jesus is the God?

[kalt]

In another thread, someone claimed that Jews believe in the “deity of Jesus”. I know quite a few Jewish people irl, and none of them believes that Jesus is God. In fact, they are amazed that anyone beleives that God became man and is 3 in 1. That belief is preposterous to them.

If you’re Jewish, will you address the claim that Jews believe that Jesus is God? TIA

 

[Kaninchen]

In another thread, someone claimed that Jews believe in the “deity of Jesus”. I know quite a few Jewish people irl, and none of them believes that Jesus is God. In fact, they are amazed that anyone beleives that God became man and is 3 in 1. That belief is preposterous to them.

If you’re Jewish, will you address the claim that Jews believe that Jesus is God? TIA

Well, there was a thread here where somebody thought that Catholics were now ‘the Jews’ so, on that basis . . . .

Meanwhile, the answer to your question is ‘not Messiah, not a Prophet, not God’.

 

[kalt]

Well, there was a thread here where somebody thought that Catholics were now ‘the Jews’ so, on that basis . . . .

Meanwhile, the answer to your question is ‘not Messiah, not a Prophet, not God’.

Thank you. I didn’t think that the dozens of Jewish people I’ve known since I was in elementary school could all have it wrong.

 

[kalt]

One more question. I’m adding it here so I don’t have to start a new thread and take up board space.

Muslims believe Jesus was a prophet. What do Jews believe about Jesus?

Do Jews believe that Christians worship the same god?

 

[Ad_Gentes]

One more question. I’m adding it here so I don’t have to start a new thread and take up board space.

Muslims believe Jesus was a prophet. What do Jews believe about Jesus?

Do Jews believe that Christians worship the same god?

I am not a Jew, but my understanding is that Jews do not believe Jesus to be God, the Son of God, the Messiah, or even a prophet. Jewish tradition believes that Malachi was the last of the prophets. Jews hold that Jesus did not fulfill the requirements of the Messiah and that no prophet would have contradicted the laws set in the Torah, which they believed Jesus did. Since Jesus is believed by Christians to be the Son of God and part of the Trinity, I would venture to say that at least some Jews may believe that Christians and Jews do not worship the same God.

As a side note, Muslims believe Jesus was a prophet, but they also believe he was a Muslim and his Gospel, which they claimed has been corrupted by Christians, proclaimed the teachings of Islam. The Qur’an is considered by Muslims to be God’s final revelation and Muhammad his last prophet.

 

[Kaninchen]

One more question. I’m adding it here so I don’t have to start a new thread and take up board space.

Muslims believe Jesus was a prophet. What do Jews believe about Jesus?

Nothing whatsoever.

Do Jews believe that Christians worship the same god?

Two Jews three opinions (at the very least) but, generally-speaking, yes.

 

[sablouwho]

One more question … What do Jews believe about Jesus?

I will answer not theologically, but rather, from my personal experience growing up as a Jew in a Jewish community, surrounded by Jewish thinking.

I have found that there are a variety of beliefs. Kaninchen’s reply to this was “Nothing whatsoever.” and for some, I think that this is entirely accurate.

Other opinions I have heard among Jews:

-He was a failed Messiah candidate
-He was a rabble-rouser and politically dangerous guy who got himself killed
-A good man and a good teacher, but he didn’t think he was God/the Son of God, it was was Paul who went off wrongheadedly and started this new religion based on him.
-While most fellow Jews I know believe that Jesus was an historical person, I have heard a few people question whether he really existed.

The main belief among Jews, despite the variety of viewpoints expressed above, is that he was not God nor the Son of God, was not a prophet, etc.

Jesus is pretty irrelevant to Judaism as a religion. He just doesn’t come up–he isn’t part of the scripture that Jews use. So “nothing whatsoever” as Kaninchen said upthread is quite accurate.

Of course, then you have Jews like me who convert to having faith in Jesus…and that is another story altogether.

 

[Trajik]

Very interesting Sablouwho,

My wife is a Jewess. She has no opinion on Jesus. What made you convert from Judaism??

Tony

 

[sablouwho]

Very interesting Sablouwho,

My wife is a Jewess. She has no opinion on Jesus. What made you convert from Judaism??

Tony

Hi Tony,

Ah, you’ve asked the million dollar question!

It’s a long story (I get asked frequently enough that I should probably type it out sometime). But to give you the short version:

• I first read apologetics by C.S. Lewis that helped me believe in God (I’d been a very secular Jew most of my life and never really developed faith in God.
• Then I read Christian apologetics to investigate the claims about Jesus made by Christianity
• Then I examined the Jewish “pushbacks” to the Christian arguments
• I continued to contemplate both the Christian and Jewish apologetics, however, I did feel that the Christian argument was the stronger one (as hard as it was for me to believe)
• I prayed about it, sincerely. But I didn’t pray to Jesus nor in his name, I only prayed to God.
• I got a very clear, supernatural answer that Jesus was the real deal. That did it for me!

 

[Bob_Crowley]

Hi Tony,

Ah, you’ve asked the million dollar question!

It’s a long story (I get asked frequently enough that I should probably type it out sometime). But to give you the short version:

• I first read apologetics by C.S. Lewis that helped me believe in God (I’d been a very secular Jew most of my life and never really developed faith in God.
• Then I read Christian apologetics to investigate the claims about Jesus made by Christianity
• Then I examined the Jewish “pushbacks” to the Christian arguments
• I continued to contemplate both the Christian and Jewish apologetics, however, I did feel that the Christian argument was the stronger one (as hard as it was for me to believe)
• I prayed about it, sincerely. But I didn’t pray to Jesus nor in his name, I only prayed to God.
• I got a very clear, supernatural answer that Jesus was the real deal. That did it for me!

If you don’t mind my asking, what was the “very clear, supernatural answer” that you got? I’ve had a fair few experiences of my own and have heard of others also having experiences. Some years ago, during a testimony by a former homosexual, he claimed that during his second and serious suicide attempt, Christ materialised in the opposite corner of the room, moved towards him and seemed to merge with him. From that time on he never even had to struggle with an impulse to homosexual behaviour despite being very heavily involved beforehand.

I’ve had my own, varying from “double whammies” (like a strong breath going through you in waves from head to foot), my father appearing in my room the night he died, “tingles” (which I distrust), a voice very clearly cutting across my thoughts and addressing the particular topic in hand on two occasions only, etc.

So I’m curious as to what your particular supernatural experience was, particularly as you’ve come from a Jewish background, albeit a secular one.

 

[Trajik]

Thanks for sharing Sablouwho

I have always wanted to ask that question to someone who left Judaism. Amazing conversion story. I hope one day to get that final answer from God. I have been floating along for what seems to be forever. I have looked into a few faiths along side Christianity. Anyhow sorry to go off topic. Take care and hope all goes well for you all.

Tony

 

[sablouwho]

Thanks for sharing Sablouwho

I have always wanted to ask that question to someone who left Judaism. Amazing conversion story. I hope one day to get that final answer from God. I have been floating along for what seems to be forever. I have looked into a few faiths along side Christianity. Anyhow sorry to go off topic. Take care and hope all goes well for you all.

Tony

Tony~ Do I understand from your post, then, that when you say you are “floating” that you don’t have a particular religion?

It does seem like you believe in God from what you’ve written, though, so if I may, it might help to “pray” or “ask” that God show you what path he wants you to follow. That is pretty much what I did when I prayed to know what was true. I very sincerely wanted to know what was true, and I was (somehow) able to empty myself of the need for a particular answer to be “the” true answer. IOW, I did not care whether Judaism or Jesus came back as the “correct” answer. I think that my ability to go where the truth was, rather than towards a preconceived answer, was a key in my having my prayers answered in the way that it was.

Hope that helps and that you don’t mind the unsolicited advice!

~Sab

Of course, if you don’t believe in some sort of SS, than that is a totally different thing.

 

[grace_singh]

Sablouwho ~

just wanted to say that is very cool!

thankful that by God’s grace you asked, sought, knocked, and were answered.

 

[sablouwho]

If you don’t mind my asking, what was the “very clear, supernatural answer” that you got?

Bob, I don’t mind that you are asking. I tend to be a little hesitant to share the details of what happened because there are naysayers out there who don’t believe that supernatural things can happen, and the particular thing that happened to me is not universally accepted among Christians as being valid. That said, I will tell you what happened:

Once I got to the point of academically seeing that the pro-Jesus/pro-NT apologetics seemed to make the most sense logically (though this was hard for me as I still had a hard time, having been a life-long agnostic, believing in the miraculous parts of the NT) I still felt that I needed to have confirmation in my heart.

I told God that I didn’t want to betray my Jewish ancestry for a lie, and I was crying (literally) for him to please show me what was true. I again told him that I would follow any path that he showed me was the truth (so long as it wasn’t Islam–yes I really said that at one point.)

Now, it is really important to understand here that I didn’t find either answer particularly palatable. If Judaism was true, I’d reasoned that I would have to start keeping kosher and obeying all these rules which for which I had strong distaste. Yes it Christianity was true, I’d have to start believing in Jesus, and as a Jew, his name kinda made me a little nauseous. But I prayed nonetheless for the truth. I told God that I had a sense that Jesus was the real deal from the extensive apologetics reading that I had done.

I was praying/crying out loud in English (totally girlie meltdown) when I felt a “presence” in my stomach behind my belly button. It was golf-ball sized and I can only describe it as if I had swallowed a ball of light. It started moving up my torso and into my throat. Then it was in my mouth, then behind my teeth, and then it came out of my mouth…

At this point I was no longer speaking in English, but I was speaking in some sort of tongue. It sounded very ancient, like something that would be appropriate to be spoken in biblical times, or in front of the wailing wall. Prior to this happening to me I had vaguely aware of Pentecostals speaking in tongues, and I thought it was something that was totally made up by people working themselves up into a frenzy of pretend-religiousity.
I was incredibly skeptical (afterall I didn’t believe in miracles at the time, and definitely not the Holy Spirit.)

Immediately after this happened, I Googled “speaking in tongues” and the first hit that came up was a paraphrase of 1 Corinthians 14:22 which said:
*
Tongues, then, are a sign, not for believers but for unbelievers so that they may believe*

I almost hopped away from my computer in fright when I read that. But I felt I was getting a very clear message. The passage was from the NT, not the OT. So it was in a Jesus-affirming context. I reasoned that these words had been written almost 2000 years before I was born…but somehow, they were the first thing that I found on Google after this very weird experience had happened to me. On top of it, the passage spoke DIRECTLY to my situation, basically telling me that I had been given tongues in order to believe.

But God wasn’t done with me as I had a lot more to say. I was speaking, and even singing (and I am not a singer!) in tongues for most of the rest of the day as well as the next.

I can still speak in tongues whenever I want to, but I only use it as a private prayer language and don’t use it in public.

There is more…I joined a Protestant church around the time this happened and went through the new members class. They said I could get baptized at the new member ceremony, or I could wait as they were going to do baptisms at the beach later in the year (I live in SoCal, where the water is warm enough for this.). They said that they didn’t have a date scheduled, but that they would let us know later in the year once a date had been set.

Fast forward about 7 months, when we were told that the beach baptisms were scheduled for a Sunday, Oct 1, 2006. The pastor stood in front of the congregtion and told everyone that they were invited, but to make sure to not forget that there would be no evening service that night because “our Jewish friends from [the temple down the street] will be using our sanctuary to celebrate the Yom Kippur!”

I was shocked. Since I was a secular Jew I didn’t really pay attention to the calendar of Jewish holidays. But I was going to be baptized on Yom Kippur, the holiest day of the Jewish year, the Day of Atonement. It was the cherry on the whipped cream on the hot fudge on the sundae for me! I felt that God really had a sense of humor and that he was really sending me a message that I had indeed made the correct choice.

Anyway, that is what happened.

 

[sablouwho]

Sablouwho ~

just wanted to say that is very cool!

thankful that by God’s grace you asked, sought, knocked, and were answered.

Thanks!

I didn’t even know about the “ask, seek, knock” verses until after I had my supernatural answer. (I came across one of those passages later on in the day that my answer came to me). It was indeed pretty cool!

 

[sablouwho]

I almost hopped away from my computer in fright when I read that. But I felt I was getting a very clear message. The passage was from the NT, not the OT. So it was in a Jesus-affirming context. I reasoned that these words had been written almost 2000 years before I was born…but somehow, they were the first thing that I found on Google after this very weird experience had happened to me. On top of it, the passage spoke DIRECTLY to my situation, basically telling me that I had been given tongues in order to believe.

I forgot to say something above so I am adding it now…

As far as I knew, Judaism has no explanation for speaking in tongues, other than “oh boy, we had better take this one to the looney bin…” Afterall, I had formerly been of that opinion myself. And I knew that I wasn’t making this up… The Jewish “you must be crazy” explanation didn’t seem nearly as compelling as the Christian understanding…which of course is that Jesus is the real deal.

 

[Bob_Crowley]

Bob, I don’t mind that you are asking. I tend to be a little hesitant to share the details of what happened because there are naysayers out there who don’t believe that supernatural things can happen, and the particular thing that happened to me is not universally accepted among Christians as being valid. That said, I will tell you what happened:

(edited to save space - 6000 character limit)

I was praying/crying out loud in English (totally girlie meltdown) when I felt a “presence” in my stomach behind my belly button. It was golf-ball sized and I can only describe it as if I had swallowed a ball of light. It started moving up my torso and into my throat. Then it was in my mouth, then behind my teeth, and then it came out of my mouth…

At this point I was no longer speaking in English, but I was speaking in some sort of tongue. It sounded very ancient, like something that would be appropriate to be spoken in biblical times, or in front of the wailing wall. Prior to this happening to me I had vaguely aware of Pentecostals speaking in tongues, and I thought it was something that was totally made up by people working themselves up into a frenzy of pretend-religiousity.
I was incredibly skeptical (afterall I didn’t believe in miracles at the time, and definitely not the Holy Spirit.)

Immediately after this happened, I Googled “speaking in tongues” and the first hit that came up was a paraphrase of 1 Corinthians 14:22 which said:
*
Tongues, then, are a sign, not for believers but for unbelievers so that they may believe*

I almost hopped away from my computer in fright when I read that. But I felt I was getting a very clear message. The passage was from the NT, not the OT. So it was in a Jesus-affirming context. I reasoned that these words had been written almost 2000 years before I was born…but somehow, they were the first thing that I found on Google after this very weird experience had happened to me. On top of it, the passage spoke DIRECTLY to my situation, basically telling me that I had been given tongues in order to believe.

But God wasn’t done with me as I had a lot more to say. I was speaking, and even singing (and I am not a singer!) in tongues for most of the rest of the day as well as the next.

I can still speak in tongues whenever I want to, but I only use it as a private prayer language and don’t use it in public.

There is more…I joined a Protestant church around the time this happened and went through the new members class. They said I could get baptized at the new member ceremony, or I could wait as they were going to do baptisms at the beach later in the year (I live in SoCal, where the water is warm enough for this.). They said that they didn’t have a date scheduled, but that they would let us know later in the year once a date had been set.

Fast forward about 7 months, when we were told that the beach baptisms were scheduled for a Sunday, Oct 1, 2006. The pastor stood in front of the congregtion and told everyone that they were invited, but to make sure to not forget that there would be no evening service that night because “our Jewish friends from [the temple down the street] will be using our sanctuary to celebrate the Yom Kippur!”

I was shocked. Since I was a secular Jew I didn’t really pay attention to the calendar of Jewish holidays. But I was going to be baptized on Yom Kippur, the holiest day of the Jewish year, the Day of Atonement. It was the cherry on the whipped cream on the hot fudge on the sundae for me! I felt that God really had a sense of humor and that he was really sending me a message that I had indeed made the correct choice.

Anyway, that is what happened.

I don’t have any trouble believing you. I’ve had too many experiences of my own to doubt your story. And God does have a sense of humour - that’s where we get our sense of humour from.

His humour can be a bit rough at times, I might add. Even CS Lewis, your initial intellectual mentor, wrote in a semibiographical fashion, that when he did bend his knee to God, forsaking his free-thinker mode of existence, he was probably the most reluctant convert in England.

I had the experience of my father appearing in my room the night he died. At one stage I asked him what the truth was, and he said Christ was. In his case the realisation came too late, as the terrifying scream at the end of the episode indicated.

But at the time I was an atheist, and not particularly looking for Christ, so it was nearly another four years before I became Christian.

The “double whammies” I mentioned, the breath going through me from head to foot in waves, were always used for one purpose - to highlight a particular message in someone else’s sermon. There were three and three only. I still remember the particular phrase in each case, yet the remainder of the sermons are lost in the fog of ancient memory.

Don’t try telling atheists this though - they won’t believe you. I’ve tried.

 

[sablouwho]

I don’t have any trouble believing you. I’ve had too many experiences of my own to doubt your story. And God does have a sense of humour - that’s where we get our sense of humour from.

Thank you! (relief!)

Even CS Lewis, your initial intellectual mentor, wrote in a semibiographical fashion, that when he did bend his knee to God, forsaking his free-thinker mode of existence, he was probably the most reluctant convert in England.

LOL, I remember reading where Lewis said that, it is still funny, thanks for the reminder!

Thank you for sharing of your own experiences too. It is helpful for me to be reminded that there is more to life than meets the eye. I was an agnostic/atheist (depending on whether I was in a good/bad mood) for so many years that it is still hard for me to believe in the supernatural even though I’ve had supernatural things happen TO ME.

Don’t try telling atheists this though - they won’t believe you. I’ve tried.

Yeah, they just mentally write us off and want to send us to the looney bin!

 

[fms]

Dear Sablouwho & Bob Crowley,

Nice! And Thanks be to God!

Would be comfortable sharing your journeys to Catholicism?

Regards,
Francis

PS Praying for your final perseverance.

 

[sablouwho]

Would be comfortable sharing your journeys to Catholicism? … Praying for your final perseverance

First, thank you for your prayers.

So, you wanna know why I wanna be Catholic instead of remaining as a “generic” Christian, huh?

Well, ok. The only thing is, you may not like all of my answer. You see, despite studying the issue and praying about it, I don’t have a sense that the CC is the One and Only, or True Church, nor do I agree with everything that the Church teaches. (And I’m really not in the mood for any proof-texting wars on that issue, for anyone who was feeling the urge–kindly resist!)

However, I do have a sense that it is the BEST place for me to live out my Christian faith. Part of this is because I had a Catholic nanny growing up and I was extremely close to her and her family. So I had very positive, formative experiences from the age of 3 weeks until I was 5.

Couple that with an irrational fear that I had developed from a young age (thanks to the not so subtle comments of my father) of evangelicals. I was highly and negatively influenced by the crazy preachers I saw on TV.

Another reason for me is that Catholicism has, for me, a much better sense of the holy. I didn’t care for Protestant worship very much–the praise and worship music was too much like a rock concert for my tastes (though I’ve been to some parishes where it’s unfortunately been similar). And don’t even get me started on the funny skits that they would put on at the church I went to (which is a mini-version of a mega-church–and it keeps growing.) Yeah, the skits were hilarious, and living in Los Angeles as I do, the volunteers who wrote/acted in the skits are all very skilled entertainment professionals. But despite the high production value of these skits, something felt empty to me. Ditto for the skilled praise and worship band.

Frankly, I was tired of being entertained and “performed at”.

I like the ritual in Catholicism. I like that the mass reminds me of the Jewish synagogue worship in many respects. It took me a long time to appreciate it (I am still just getting my feet wet) but I really like the idea of Mary and the Saints.

I don’t care for the plain-ness of Protestant churches. I find it hard to connect to God in that kind of atmosphere. And the lack of liturgy was problematic for me. All there was, was a “worship sandwich”. That is a term that I made up to describe the pattern of "P&W music, followed by a sermon, followed by more P&W music. The end. " Oh yeah, and sometimes they did communion with pieces of pita bread and grape juice.

Which brings me to Eucharist. For a long time I had a hard time accepting this CC teaching. But the more I think about it, the more I believe it and the more I crave it.

That is really all I can think of at the moment. If I think of any other reasons I will post more about it on this thread.