Jews, the Talmud, and Jesus

  • Thread starter Thread starter Sepharad
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
There are many Jews who believe in Jesus as the Messiah (though clearly a small fraction of Jews). All 12 apostles were Jews. Jesus was a Jews. There have been many highly educated and respected Orthodox Jews who have come to believe Jesus it the Messiah. Rabbi Leopold Cohn is just one example.

I agree with Sepharad’s original post however, that I don’t think the Talmud is the “cause” of the Jewish peoples’ general rejection of Christ (though there are uncomplimentary things said about Jesus in the Talmud - then again, that also establishes his historical existence!).

There is also an interesting passage in Yoma 39 of the Talmud which talks about the Rabbi’s wonder/concern that in the 40 years immediately preceeding the destruction of the second Temple, the sins of the Jewish people were not forgiven (the apointed signs of forgivness indicated no forgiveness). What happened 40 years before the destruction of the temple? The crucifiction of Christ! What an amazing coincidence (I think not, of course) that the sacrafices in the temple ceased to be effective in atoning for sin after Christ’s death and then the Temple was destroyed with no sacrifice possible for the last 2,000 plus years - and this is in the Talmud.

Something to think about.

Blessings,

Brian
 
There is also the case of Roy Shoeman, author of Salvation is From the Jews, who was a devout Jew (though I understand that he fell away from practice, but he was educated in Judaism) then converted to Catholicism. See his website for more information.
 
Robbinson said:
There are many Jews who believe in Jesus as the Messiah (though clearly a small fraction of Jews). All 12 apostles were Jews. Jesus was a Jews. There have been many highly educated and respected Orthodox Jews who have come to believe Jesus it the Messiah. Rabbi Leopold Cohn is just one example.

I agree with Sepharad’s original post however, that I don’t think the Talmud is the “cause” of the Jewish peoples’ general rejection of Christ (though there are uncomplimentary things said about Jesus in the Talmud - then again, that also establishes his historical existence!).

There is also an interesting passage in Yoma 39 of the Talmud which talks about the Rabbi’s wonder/concern that in the 40 years immediately preceeding the destruction of the second Temple, the sins of the Jewish people were not forgiven (the apointed signs of forgivness indicated no forgiveness). What happened 40 years before the destruction of the temple? The crucifiction of Christ! What an amazing coincidence (I think not, of course) that the sacrafices in the temple ceased to be effective in atoning for sin after Christ’s death and then the Temple was destroyed with no sacrifice possible for the last 2,000 plus years - and this is in the Talmud.

Something to think about.

Blessings,

Brian
Click to expand...
Same source gives other signs like the doors of the Holy of Holies swung open every night for the same 40 years.
 
Sepharad said:
Looks like you’re not that familiar with the full story on Zoller (his real name, btw.) I’ve had to tell this so many times I should make a website about it. 🙂

OK…my mother was in the process of converting to Orthodox Judaism (from an Italian Catholic background) at the same time Zoller was becoming controversial in Italy. She followed the story in the media of the day, and even saved some of the articles which I still have. The real story was covered up or forgotten, but there was a book written about the entire situation in 1945, entitled, “The Chief Rabbi of Rome Becomes A Catholic” by Louis I Newman (Renascence Press, c 1945). I suggest you get an old copy of it.

Zoller was a Galician (not Italian) Jew who moved to Italy and got himself hired as the chief rabbi of the Rome Jewish community. He Italianized his name to “Zolli” to fit in better.

From published reports, he was a mediocre rabbi at best, and was barely holding onto his position when the Nazis began rounding up the Jews of Rome.

In Judaism a rabbi is expected to stay with his people in times of trouble, as a shepherd stays with his sheep.

Zoller’s response was to run and hide in the Vatican, of all places.

After the war, the survivors of the Rome Jewish community straglled back to Rome, and Zoller had the audacity to present himself to them to be “re-hired”. They adamantly refused, due to his abandonment of their community. He replied to the leader of the Jewish community of Rome: “The Italian Jews will regret this, they will pay for this”.

The next thing anyone knew, a mere few months later, it was widely announced by the church that the “chief rabbi of Rome”, Israel Zolli, was being baptized into the Roman Catholic Faith.

The baptism was made into a very public spectacle, perhaps to fulfill the promise Zoller made to the head of the Rome Jewish community.

One article I remember reading said that a reporter interviewed Zoller’s daughter Miriam after her father’s conversion (she converted also, as did her mother)…he found her to be incredibly ignorant of even the most basic Jewish rituals and laws.

Anything else you want to know about him?
Click to expand...
Were you Baptized as a Catholic?
 
I find the concept of ‘rejecting Jesus’ a bit curious – do Christians ‘reject’ Mohamed, or Buddha, or Confucius, or are Mohammed, Buddha and Confucius just irrelevant?

I’m not conscious of ‘rejecting Jesus’, Jesus is merely in the same category as Mohamed, Buddha and Confucius except that he’s more popular (well, a bit more popular) in the world around me than the others are. That’s not to say that I’m unfamiliar with the Christian scriptures, it’s that they exist for me in the same category as those surrounding other religious groups – more or less interesting pious fictions.
 
Other facts Sepahard doesn’t know but claims to know “everything” about Mr. Zolli:
This courageous man, or I should say courageous mind, enabled him to step beyond the Old Testament and become a follower of Jesus Christ.
In the late 19th century, there were turbulent times in Europe. France was reeling about political instability by military defeat at the hands of Prussia. Scientific theories of Darwin, Max, Nietzsche, and Schopenheur were starting to blur Europe’s Chrisitian perspective, while inside the Russian Empire anti-semitism was on the march.
The Zolli family had substantial business interests in what had become Russian controlled territory.
The Russian government classified the Zolli’s as foreigners and being Jewish made them more vulnerable. They lost everything to a confiscation order issued by Tsar Alexander III.
Like many Russian Jews the poverty stricken family had moved to Poland. Older children went to work while young Israel went to a strict Jewish school where the children spent much of the time reading books of the Pentateuch.
That young restless Jewish mind had been agitating about God’s inner life since the age of eight. Israel had many questions about God.
One of Israel’s friends who was a Catholic, invited him over one day. Israel had been deeply affected by the sight of a crucifix hanging on the wall. Who was that man? What had he done to deserve such punishment? Surely he couldn’t of been bad? Maybe he deserved it? But why was the image treated so reverently? Perhaps the man represented truth?
Eventually Israel concluded that the man on the cross was good and had been wrongly punished.
As a teen, Israel’s vision of that crucifix sparked his curiosity so much, he started secretly studying the New Testament.

Just wanted to give you people a heads up on the beginning of this wonderful man’s life. I will continue in a moment. Beautiful story.
 
Kaninchen said:
I find the concept of ‘rejecting Jesus’ a bit curious – do Christians ‘reject’ Mohamed, or Buddha, or Confucius, or are Mohammed, Buddha and Confucius just irrelevant?

I’m not conscious of ‘rejecting Jesus’, Jesus is merely in the same category as Mohamed, Buddha and Confucius except that he’s more popular (well, a bit more popular) in the world around me than the others are. That’s not to say that I’m unfamiliar with the Christian scriptures, it’s that they exist for me in the same category as those surrounding other religious groups – more or less interesting pious fictions.
Click to expand...
Yes. European. Very.

If Christinas believed in the coming of a Prophet, or if the Bible was based on the Dharma, or if Master Kong and not the Prophet Ezra edited the Old Testament, you might have had a point. But Muhammad fulfills no role, Buddha’s enlightment is itself an illiusion according to Yhwh, and having Isreal’s wisdom literature Confucius does nothing for us.

Now, the Jews claim to await the messiah who has already come. The New Testament so firmly based on the Old (as the soicologist Sparks shows, it seems the majority of Hebrews accepted it) that the rabbis had to stick benediction 12 into the amidah to expel the Christians from the synagog and engage in counter polemic in the Talmud, and had to meet and Jabneh to reformulate the canon (rejecting the LXX, which up to that time had been regarded as inspired, the Talmud itself stating it was the fulfillment of Noah’s blessing that Japheth live in Shem’s tent) and the text (as shown by the Dead Sea Scrolls) shaded against those parts that proved too easy for the Christians to proof text.

Now, the Talmud (Yom 30) says that for 40 years before the destruction of the Temple the scarlet cord (indicating Israel’s sins were not forgiven from the sacrifice) came up, the lamps went out every night, every night, for 40 years, the doors of the Holy of Holies swung open of their own accord, etc. Consult Matthew 27:51 for the explanation.
 
Israel Zolli found delight in Christ’s sayings especially from the Sermon on the Mount, “But I say to love your enemies” and “Blessed are the pure in heart”.
He also said the man on the cross matched the identity of the Suffering Servant from Isaiah. Zolli would hit on the idea that the Gospels were inside the OT from the beginning was seemingly inevitable.
When he studied the Torah, his mind always wandered to that crucifix on the wall in his friend’s home.
Fast forward:
Israel completed his Rabbinical studies in Florence and next gained his Professorship at the University of Padua.
In 1918 he was appointed Chief Rabbi of Trieste in Italy.
Mussolini took charge in Italy in 1922 and Hitler come into power in Germany 11 years later.
Zolli moved to Rome to take the post chief Rabbi. The Jews in Rome were confident they could survive a fallout, but Zolli knowing what was happening in Germany, predicted Hitler would soon occupy Italy. His warnings to Jews to destroy their records and go underground went unheeded.

I will now explain Zolli and the vatican next…
 
With the collapse of Mussolini’s regime in 1943 and Italy’s defection from the Axis, the Nazi’s immediately seized control of all Italian territory and occupied Rome.
Enter, Colonel Kappler, a senior German officer who saw a chance to line his pockets. Kappler issued the Jewish community an ultimatum. Either hand over 50 kg of gold or, failing that, hand over 300 named hostages—a list headed by none other than Zolli himself. The Jews in a short time scraped together 35 kg but it wasn’t enough for that Kappler, so on behalf of the Jewish community, Zolli was depected to approach the Vatican for the shortfall.
**This was the first contact with the institutional church **and it took place in secret since the Gestapo watched all Vatican city’s exits.
Zolli met with the Vatican’s secretary of state Cardinal Maglione and appealed to him saying “The New Testament cannot abandon the Old”. Maglione immediately approached Pope Pius XII to help with the needed gold. The pope agreed to the request and Zolli was told to later return to pick up the “package”.
Not only did the pope act with alacrity, the Catholic parishes of Rome hurriedly gathered together a further 15kg of gold, something Zolli found out about from his daughter when he returned home and the hostage crisis was averted.
 
Would anyone here like to hear about how Zolli was converted through the images of Christ?
 
Isa_Almisry said:
Yes, I didn’t respond to that as she already made some comment about visions. I assume she already knew that, but I don’t know why she didn’t bring it up. Btw, I understand that some Jews deny he had a vision.

Pius? My, you’re opening a can of worms, aren’t you? His detractors don’t let the facts get in the way of a good condemnation either.
Click to expand...
Why would I be opening up a can of worms? Pius was a great and wonderful man as well as pope. He saved thousands of Jews from the Nazi’s. BTW, of course Jews will deny he had a vision. If you rejected Christ wouldn’t you?
 
Sepharad said:
They were Jewish, but do we know for certain that they were Jewishly educated/knowledgeable Jews? There is a difference, just as today we have secular/unlearned Jews, and Jewishly knowledgeable Jews (who are usually Orthodox in practice and belief.)

.
Click to expand...
Hi Sepharard:

The problem with this conclusion or belief is that we know from Acts that the early Church was so “Jewish” that there was serious debate over whether Gentiles needed to become Jewish and follow Jewish customs and traditions in order to become Chrisitan. That doesnt sound like a secular Jewish movement.

Blessings,

Brian
 
From the Bible, we have two of Jesus’s followers as leaders of the Sanhedron. Joseph allowed him to be burried in his tomb and Nicodemus came at night out of fear. They were well-educated.

Nathanial was studying the law under a fig tree when his brother came to get him. Jesus told him what he was doing. One can say that he was educated in the Jewish Scriptures.

Other posters have listed other examples. As one poster pointed out, the early Church was so Jewish, there was a dispute about if Gentiles had to become Jews first, being circumcised and keeping all the kosher laws.

A question was raised about rejecting Christ, or anyone else. Rejection is an action. One must be forced with the either-or decision first. I have rejected all the others, leaving only Christ. Not everyone has made an active choice.

Now, back to the origional post. What is in the Talmud that would lead one to reject Jesus?
 
Since Sepahard brought up Israel Zolli, I thought I would elaborate on the true story of this man. Not a watered down version as said from Sepahard. There was obviously a lot more detail about this holy man. Details that are swept under the rug by Jews or lack of knowledge about what really happened.
 
Sepharad said:
In the few months since I’ve been here, I’ve noticed that many Catholics seem to believe that the Jewish religion as it has existed since the time of Jesus is not the same as the one that existed prior.

I have also noticed that some Catholics believe that it is the teachings of the Talmud (the Jewish formerly-oral law, now set into writing) which prevent Jews from believing in Jesus.

(I’ve gathered this from not only this forum, but a number of other Catholic websites, blogs, etc which I’ve been reading over.)
Click to expand...
Sepharad -
**As for the Talmudic references to Jesus - and thay are transparently evident - last month, you and others accused me of gleaning my information from “neo-Nazi” websites. I resented that, so **I cited the following reliable sources:
The Princeton University Press
Amazon Books
Barnes and Noble
Studies in Christian-Jewish Relations at Boston College

Whereas, I realize that because Judaism is an evolving religion (your words) and many do not adhere to the things about Jesus written in the Talmud, they are nevertheless written about him.
 
Isa_Almisry said:
Now, the Talmud (Yom 30) says that for 40 years before the destruction of the Temple the scarlet cord (indicating Israel’s sins were not forgiven from the sacrifice) came up, the lamps went out every night, every night, for 40 years, the doors of the Holy of Holies swung open of their own accord, etc. Consult Matthew 27:51 for the explanation.
Click to expand...
:eek: any link??
 
inJESUS said:
:eek: any link??
Click to expand...
“Our rabbis taught: During the last forty years before the destruction of the Temple the lot ‘For the Lord’] did not come up in the right hand; nor did the crimson-colored strap become white; nor did the western most light shine; and the doors of the Hekel [Temple] would open by themselves” — (Soncino version, Yoma 39b).
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top