Jews, the Talmud, and Jesus

[angelusm]

I’m glad there’s a discussion about Talmud. All Christians should know what Talmud says about them - beasts, worst than animals, children of devil, etc.
biblebelievers.org.au/talmud1.htm
Talmud is the book that shaped Jewish mentality very much.
I also recommend a book by Kevin B. MacDonald, I don’t remember the title, on how Jews hate and destroy the western civilization.

 

[Sepharad]

There are many Jews who believe in Jesus as the Messiah (though clearly a small fraction of Jews). All 12 apostles were Jews. Jesus was a Jews. There have been many highly educated and respected Orthodox Jews who have come to believe Jesus it the Messiah. Rabbi Leopold Cohn is just one example.

I agree with Sepharad’s original post however, that I don’t think the Talmud is the “cause” of the Jewish peoples’ general rejection of Christ (though there are uncomplimentary things said about Jesus in the Talmud - then again, that also establishes his historical existence!).

There is also an interesting passage in Yoma 39 of the Talmud which talks about the Rabbi’s wonder/concern that in the 40 years immediately preceeding the destruction of the second Temple, the sins of the Jewish people were not forgiven (the apointed signs of forgivness indicated no forgiveness). What happened 40 years before the destruction of the temple? The crucifiction of Christ! What an amazing coincidence (I think not, of course) that the sacrafices in the temple ceased to be effective in atoning for sin after Christ’s death and then the Temple was destroyed with no sacrifice possible for the last 2,000 plus years - and this is in the Talmud.

Something to think about.

Blessings,

Brian

One correction I wanted to make about “Rabbi Leopold Cohn”: he was a man, many years ago, who had claimed to have been a rabbi who came to believe in Jesus and became a Protestant.

It later turned out that not only was he never a rabbi, he was not even Leopold Cohn. For more info see: famous.adoption.com/famous/cohn-leopold.html According to news reports of the day and a lawsuit centering around him, he changed his name and left Hungary to avoid legal trouble under his real name of Josovics (sp?)

As for unkind things about Jesus being in the Talmud, nope. Yeshua was a very common name in Biblical times, very much like “Bob” is now.

For more info on what is actually said in the Talmud, see:

talmud.faithweb.com

 

[inJESUS]

“Our rabbis taught: During the last forty years before the destruction of the Temple the lot ‘For the Lord’] did not come up in the right hand; nor did the crimson-colored strap become white; nor did the western most light shine; and the doors of the Hekel [Temple] would open by themselves” — (Soncino version, Yoma 39b).

fascinating.

 

[Sepharad]

There is also the case of Roy Shoeman, author of Salvation is From the Jews, who was a devout Jew (though I understand that he fell away from practice, but he was educated in Judaism) then converted to Catholicism. See his website for more information.

I read his website, and noticed that he namedropped with three rabbis whose work I am quite familiar with. I became curious as to whether or not Schoeman actually did study under those rabbis (I have become used to Jewish converts, esp.“messianic” ones, stretching the truth, exaggerating or even lying to make their testimonies look more compelling).

Unfortunately, two of them have since died (lucky for Schoeman), but the third is very much alive and I happen to know him because he is affiliated with a Jewish movement I also belong to.

I emailed him, and his reply was that he had never heard of Roy Schoeman. I gave him the link to Schoeman’s website, and he emailed him (and sent me a cc copy) to ask him to remove his name from the site because he did not want his name misused in that way.

 

[Sepharad]

Why would I be opening up a can of worms? Pius was a great and wonderful man as well as pope. He saved thousands of Jews from the Nazi’s. BTW, of course Jews will deny he had a vision. If you rejected Christ wouldn’t you?

Hi there…how long did it take you to come back to CAF, btw? One month? And if you’re wondering how I can “tell”, writing styles and specific subject matters are hard to hide. Just a hint.

 

[Robbinson]

One correction I wanted to make about “Rabbi Leopold Cohn”: he was a man, many years ago, who had claimed to have been a rabbi who came to believe in Jesus and became a Protestant.

It later turned out that not only was he never a rabbi, he was not even Leopold Cohn. For more info see: famous.adoption.com/famous/cohn-leopold.html According to news reports of the day and a lawsuit centering around him, he changed his name and left Hungary to avoid legal trouble under his real name of Josovics (sp?)

As for unkind things about Jesus being in the Talmud, nope. Yeshua was a very common name in Biblical times, very much like “Bob” is now.

For more info on what is actually said in the Talmud, see:

talmud.faithweb.com

I find this difficult to believe. I’ve read his autobiography - which is still being published. If what you are saying is true, that would be all over the news. If you like, I’d be happy to send you a copy of the book.

Blessings,

Brian

 

[Sepharad]

Now, the Talmud (Yom 30) says that for 40 years before the destruction of the Temple the scarlet cord (indicating Israel’s sins were not forgiven from the sacrifice) came up, the lamps went out every night, every night, for 40 years, the doors of the Holy of Holies swung open of their own accord, etc. Consult Matthew 27:51 for the explanation.

BTW its “Yoma”, not “Yom” (maybe if you’d gotten that info from the Talmud itself, and not from a Christian missionary resource, you’d have known that)

Anyway, here is an explanation:

outreachjudaism.org/Yomkippur.html

 

[Sepharad]

Since Sepahard brought up Israel Zolli, I thought I would elaborate on the true story of this man. Not a watered down version as said from Sepahard. There was obviously a lot more detail about this holy man. Details that are swept under the rug by Jews or lack of knowledge about what really happened.

I did not bring him up; Isa did, Cathdefender/Judcath4 (oops, I meant 1stChristian!)

 

[Sepharad]

I’m glad there’s a discussion about Talmud. All Christians should know what Talmud says about them - beasts, worst than animals, children of devil, etc.
biblebelievers.org.au/talmud1.htm
Talmud is the book that shaped Jewish mentality very much.
I also recommend a book by Kevin B. MacDonald, I don’t remember the title, on how Jews hate and destroy the western civilization.

This is what cracks me up about so many Christians…they blast the Talmud as “devilish”, “horrible”, and refuse to accept it…UNLESS it says something they think refers to “proof” of Jesus, then they quote from it galore!

Either you totally accept it, or you totally reject it. You can’t have it both ways!

 

[Angelos]

This is what cracks me up about so many Christians…they blast the Talmud as “devilish”, “horrible”, and refuse to accept it…UNLESS it says something they think refers to “proof” of Jesus, then they quote from it galore!

Either you totally accept it, or you totally reject it. You can’t have it both ways!

Why the need to put a false dilemma before Christians? We accept the historicity of Talmud and its significance for Jewish believers, but reject what it says about Jesus. Thus, what we accept is not necessarily the same as what we reject, which is quite natural.

 

[Sepharad]

Why the need to put a false dilemma before Christians? We accept the historicity of Talmud and its significance for Jewish believers, but reject what it says about Jesus. Thus, what we accept is not necessarily the same as what we reject, which is quite natural.

The Talmud does not say anything about the Jesus Christians worship as a god.

 

[ralphinal]

The Talmud does not say anything about the Jesus Christians worship as a god.

A few simple questions, and I prefer only Jewish answers, for obvious reasons.

Is Jesus mentioned? How is he different from the Christian Jesus?

Does the Talmud really have the harsh things to say about Christians?

 

[Robbinson]

The Talmud does not say anything about the Jesus Christians worship as a god.

With respect, its affirmative statements/conclusions like this which attack your credibility. At best you could say there is not demonstrable evidence that the references to “Jesus” or Yeshua or “that man” in the Talmud is referring to the Jesus Christians acknlowledge as the Messiah.

Regarding Yoma 39 - I read the link (thanks) -but talk about twisting oneself into a pretzel to avoid the implications of that text relative to the crucifiction of Jesus. Do you really, in your heart, believe that the sacrificial system outlined in Leviticus with blood as an atonement for sins was not a central component of biblical judaism? Sure, we can find scattered references to atonement through prayer or righteous acts (though the context even there doesn’t suggest its in lieu of sacrifice), but blood atonement represents as significant portion of the entire Torah.

Blessings,

Brian

 

[inJESUS]

BTW its “Yoma”, not “Yom” (maybe if you’d gotten that info from the Talmud itself, and not from a Christian missionary resource, you’d have known that)

Anyway, here is an explanation:

outreachjudaism.org/Yomkippur.html

from your link:

the very same Talmud, which evangelicals gleefully use to advance their tenuous positions, also unambiguously states that Jesus of Nazareth was neither virtuous nor the messiah.

Didn;t you say previously that the Talmud does not mention Jesus? or this matter is not agreed upon?

 

[ralphinal]

A few simple questions, and I prefer only Jewish answers, for obvious reasons.

Is Jesus mentioned? How is he different from the Christian Jesus?

Does the Talmud really have the harsh things to say about Christians?

Ok. Can anyone answer these questions?

 

[Kaninchen]

Ok. Can anyone answer these questions?

There have been any number of threads on this subject, I used to think that Valke was a Talmud thread addict (sorry Valke!).

Why not just google ‘Valke’ and ‘Talmud’ and ‘Jesus’?

 

[ralphinal]

There have been any number of threads on this subject, I used to think that Valke was a Talmud thread addict (sorry Valke!).

Why not just google ‘Valke’ and ‘Talmud’ and ‘Jesus’?

I forgot about Valke. Not that you or Sep are not good sources for Jewish information.

 

[Sepharad]

A few simple questions, and I prefer only Jewish answers, for obvious reasons.

Is Jesus mentioned? How is he different from the Christian Jesus?

Does the Talmud really have the harsh things to say about Christians?

The Jesus Christians worship is not in the Talmud, as far as I know. The name Jesus was very, very common in Biblical times and 2nd Temple times…it was as common then as “Joe” is now.

The Talmud condemns the “akum”, which is an Aramaic term for “idolater”. It refers to the pagan polytheists that existed in 2nd Temple times and before.

The only way it can apply to Christians is if Christians believe it applies to them.

This site can give you more info: talmud.faithweb.com

 

[ralphinal]

The Jesus Christians worship is not in the Talmud, as far as I know. The name Jesus was very, very common in Biblical times and 2nd Temple times…it was as common then as “Joe” is now.

The Talmud condemns the “akum”, which is an Aramaic term for “idolater”. It refers to the pagan polytheists that existed in 2nd Temple times and before.

The only way it can apply to Christians is if Christians believe it applies to them.

This site can give you more info: talmud.faithweb.com

Thanks.

I found a good website discussing it. It seems that there are three of four possible mentions, but two of them were about a century too early and the other two did not fit the crucifixion and they had the wrong Mary as his mother.

Anyway, what about the bad things that are supposably said about Christians in there? I must admit, they are very offensive, assuming they are true

 

[Sepharad]

Thanks.

I found a good website discussing it. It seems that there are three of four possible mentions, but two of them were about a century too early and the other two did not fit the crucifixion and they had the wrong Mary as his mother.

Anyway, what about the bad things that are supposably said about Christians in there? I must admit, they are very offensive, assuming they are true

As I said, the only references I have seen in Talmudic literature are to the “akum”. This was an Aramaic term that meant, “idolator”. It refers to the polytheists who were around in Second Temple times and before.

The ONLY way it can apply to Christians is if Christians themselves regard themselves as idolaters.

If you do not see yourself as “akum” (idolaters) then it is not speaking of you. I do not recall any rabbinical source ever lumping Christians in with akum.