Jews who became Catholics: some commonalities

[HashemEchad]

While I will gladly share my faith with anyone who asks, and I hope I demonstrate my faith by the way I live, I pretty much concur. The Church teaches that unlike other religions, Judaism is ALREADY a response to the call of God. The Jews are not our cousins, but our Elder Brothers (and sisters) in Faith to God and in response to His call.

If that is so, then why are there still Catholics who a) hate Jews and like to arrogantly call us “Christ killers”, and b) Why do some Catholics still feel it is their duty to proselytize Jews, even after we’ve made it clear we are not interested?

Because, you know, some things can become self-fulfilling prophecies. Some Christians have accused us of “hating Jesus and Christians”. Left alone, we do not hate anything or anyone.

But when Christianity persecutes us (as it has in the past) for refusing to convert, expels us, murders us, steals our children and forcibly baptizes them to raise them as Catholics, and when (in modern times) they hammer away at us like a Vonage commercial over and over again about “why you need Jesus”, it can make a person very irritated toward both Jesus and Christianity. And then they turn around and say, “See? I told you they hate Jesus and us!”

 

[manualman]

An interesting thread and perspective. A few thoughts though:

1. Evangelical protestants as part of their very identity understand that they have a mission to spread the Good News of Christ. To NOT do so to them would be similar to their seeing a man passed out on railroad tracks with a train approaching and just walking past and doing nothing to help. That’s why they don’t ‘leave you alone.’
2. If it makes you feel better, former catholic evangelicals often exaggerate their ‘catholic’ upbringing as well. Many seem tempted to spice up their testimonies, presumably thinking this will help to save drunken men on the railroad tracks of life. Bad strategy, but it requires some maturity to see why.
3. Your musings about Jewish converts to catholicism provoking God’s wrath and said converts early death are about as sensitive as gentiles who wonder if God’s wrath might have something to do with the disproportionate persecution of Jews through history: bad and dangerous attempt at logic! Seems rather ironic you don’t see that! But then few people really learn the lessons of history. The Holocaust should have taught us to never again allow a group of the strong to dehumanize a group of the weak and voiceless to the point where it is considered acceptable to slaughter them wholesale to solve a perceived ‘problem.’ But when pro-life leaders point to that lesson that should have been learned they are labeled ‘insensitive exploiters’ of the Holocaust. Whats the point of remembering if we can’t pervent it from happening again to OTHER groups?
4. Jews often seem to feel that it is christianity that is at fault for their oppression in history. I suggest that the truth lies far deeper. The oppression of Jews comes from the pit of hell itself. Satan resents the election of Israel as God’s chosen people from whom would come the Messiah to save the world. He takes extreme delight in exacting revenge whenver he can. Hatred of Judaism isn’t encourage by christianity. Hatred for Judaism happens IN SPITE of christianity. Don’t expect things to get much easier as we get farther into this post-christian era.

 

[Eden]

If that is so, then why are there still Catholics who a) hate Jews and like to arrogantly call us “Christ killers”, and b) Why do some Catholics still feel it is their duty to proselytize Jews, even after we’ve made it clear we are not interested?

Because, you know, some things can become self-fulfilling prophecies. Some Christians have accused us of “hating Jesus and Christians”. Left alone, we do not hate anything or anyone.

But when Christianity persecutes us (as it has in the past) for refusing to convert, expels us, murders us, steals our children and forcibly baptizes them to raise them as Catholics, and when (in modern times) they hammer away at us like a Vonage commercial over and over again about “why you need Jesus”, it can make a person very irritated toward both Jesus and Christianity. And then they turn around and say, “See? I told you they hate Jesus and us!”

Maybe you need a sense of humor, like Rabbi Neusner:

“I’m not offended when Christians eat pork,” says Jacob Neusner. At least not usually. The brilliant–and none too patient–Jewish scholar does recall a religion conference where so much of the other white meat was served that he was reduced to a diet of hard-boiled eggs. One day on the food line something snapped, and he rhymed aloud, “I hope you all get trichinosis/And come to believe in the God of Moses.” A fellow conferee instantly replied, “And if we don’t get such diseases/Will you believe in the God of Jesus?” Neusner cackles. “That’s an example of the right way to do Judeo-Christian dialogue,” he says."

This is from the article “The Pope’s Favorite Rabbi” in TIME:

time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1625183,00.html

 

[Yerusalyim]

If that is so, then why are there still Catholics who a) hate Jews and like to arrogantly call us “Christ killers”, and b) Why do some Catholics still feel it is their duty to proselytize Jews, even after we’ve made it clear we are not interested?

Because, you know, some things can become self-fulfilling prophecies. Some Christians have accused us of “hating Jesus and Christians”. Left alone, we do not hate anything or anyone.

But when Christianity persecutes us (as it has in the past) for refusing to convert, expels us, murders us, steals our children and forcibly baptizes them to raise them as Catholics, and when (in modern times) they hammer away at us like a Vonage commercial over and over again about “why you need Jesus”, it can make a person very irritated toward both Jesus and Christianity. And then they turn around and say, “See? I told you they hate Jesus and us!”

I can’t answer for those who hold on to old ideas, old biases, old prejudices, I can only try to show them what the Church teaches and show them my own example…and defend my Elder Brothers when I see them attacked.

I feel your frustration with those who would persecute you for being Jewish, or try to convert you and dislike you for not being persuaded.

 

[inthecloud]

While I can see Hashem’s frustration I do worry about the idea of people dying early for following their consciences in matter of religion. That’s a worrying concept to me

Before some people highjack this tread into Jew vs Catholic thing, my two cents.
Many Jews who do that have mystic tendencies, Many jewish converts in medieval Spain were heavely into mysticism and philosophy.
See Edith Stein, she was both, a mystic and a philosopher.
And mystics tend to die young, Jewish or not. See Edith Stein again.

Great suffering meet greater rewards.

Outside the Hasidim Jews are more practical that mystic. Hence the atraction or Catholicism. More if you are female.

 

[Valke2]

Before some people highjack this tread into Jew vs Catholic thing, my two cents.
Many Jews who do that have mystic tendencies, Many jewish converts in medieval Spain were heavely into mysticism and philosophy.
See Edith Stein, she was both, a mystic and a philosopher.
And mystics tend to die young, Jewish or not. See Edith Stein again.

Great suffering meet greater rewards.

Outside the Hasidim Jews are more practical that mystic. Hence the atraction or Catholicism. More if you are female.

I don’t think Edit Stein’s mystic tendencies had anything to do with her short life span! I’d agree that many jews who leave their faith do so because they do not feel they are being spiritually fullfilled and this is something that Judaism needs to address.

 

[HashemEchad]

An interesting thread and perspective. A few thoughts though:

1. Evangelical protestants as part of their very identity understand that they have a mission to spread the Good News of Christ. To NOT do so to them would be similar to their seeing a man passed out on railroad tracks with a train approaching and just walking past and doing nothing to help. That’s why they don’t ‘leave you alone.’
2. If it makes you feel better, former catholic evangelicals often exaggerate their ‘catholic’ upbringing as well. Many seem tempted to spice up their testimonies, presumably thinking this will help to save drunken men on the railroad tracks of life. Bad strategy, but it requires some maturity to see why.
3. Your musings about Jewish converts to catholicism provoking God’s wrath and said converts early death are about as sensitive as gentiles who wonder if God’s wrath might have something to do with the disproportionate persecution of Jews through history: bad and dangerous attempt at logic! Seems rather ironic you don’t see that! But then few people really learn the lessons of history. The Holocaust should have taught us to never again allow a group of the strong to dehumanize a group of the weak and voiceless to the point where it is considered acceptable to slaughter them wholesale to solve a perceived ‘problem.’ But when pro-life leaders point to that lesson that should have been learned they are labeled ‘insensitive exploiters’ of the Holocaust. Whats the point of remembering if we can’t pervent it from happening again to OTHER groups?
4. Jews often seem to feel that it is christianity that is at fault for their oppression in history. I suggest that the truth lies far deeper. The oppression of Jews comes from the pit of hell itself. Satan resents the election of Israel as God’s chosen people from whom would come the Messiah to save the world. He takes extreme delight in exacting revenge whenver he can. Hatred of Judaism isn’t encourage by christianity. Hatred for Judaism happens IN SPITE of christianity. Don’t expect things to get much easier as we get farther into this post-christian era.

Actually, the reason I wondered what it could mean (that it seemed to me that disproportionate number of Catholic ex-Jews died of rare diseases, and at a relatively early age), was this (and I stated this previously): often, when a person is diagnosed with a serious illness, he does some religious soul-searching, and sometimes ends up in another religion. Ditto for people who recently had a tragic loss (like a former neighbor of mine, a Catholic, who became a JW after her husband died.)

 

[HashemEchad]

Maybe you need a sense of humor, like Rabbi Neusner:

“I’m not offended when Christians eat pork,” says Jacob Neusner. At least not usually. The brilliant–and none too patient–Jewish scholar does recall a religion conference where so much of the other white meat was served that he was reduced to a diet of hard-boiled eggs. One day on the food line something snapped, and he rhymed aloud, “I hope you all get trichinosis/And come to believe in the God of Moses.” A fellow conferee instantly replied, “And if we don’t get such diseases/Will you believe in the God of Jesus?” Neusner cackles. “That’s an example of the right way to do Judeo-Christian dialogue,” he says."

This is from the article “The Pope’s Favorite Rabbi” in TIME:

time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1625183,00.html

I see the humor in it, and Rabbi Neusner is a very interesting guy!

I would personally phrase it like this: “I’m not offended when Christians eat pork…but I am offended when they try to make me eat it” (figuratively speaking).

 

[Valke2]

coincidently, I purchased today Nuesner’s English translation of the Mishna. (for some light reading on the morning commute )

 

[HashemEchad]

I can’t answer for those who hold on to old ideas, old biases, old prejudices, I can only try to show them what the Church teaches and show them my own example…and defend my Elder Brothers when I see them attacked.

I feel your frustration with those who would persecute you for being Jewish, or try to convert you and dislike you for not being persuaded.

What especially hurts is knowing that offline, I have, often, defended the Catholic church when I felt it deserved defending. Often upsetting Protestants and Jews when so doing. I have defended Pius XII’s actions during WW2 because I understand why he did as he did; I have defended the church in the Galileo misunderstanding; I have defended the church on the issues of artificial BC and abortion. I have also had arguments with Catholics outside abortion clinics I picket at, who insisted they are “true Catholics” even though they are pro-abortion (I informed them that the Catholic church does not consider them Catholics in good standing.) And then I come here and find Catholics who insist to me that a Jew who converts to Catholicism remains a Jew. Excuse me, but just as I respect the right of the RCC and the RCC alone to define who is a genuine Catholic, I’d think they would grant Judaism the same right, for us to define who is a genuine Jew. But I guess it doesn’t work both ways, does it?

And here I have also run into Catholics who call me a christ killer (in PM; I doubt they’d have the nerve to do it on the forum); who ridicule my religion, who try over and over to convert me, who arrogantly say to me, “Some day you will wish you had accepted Jesus, etc etc etc”…it makes me think that maybe I was wrong to hold an ecumenical view re: this church.

It has been a really hard struggle for me to view the Catholic church fairly, due to negative childhood experiences with Catholic schoolgirls and also, due to knowing what this church did to torment my mother’s family during the Spanish Inquisition. I personally think it is a miracle that I have anything good to say about this church at all, but I do and have, because I want to be fair as far as I am able to be.

 

[HashemEchad]

Before some people highjack this tread into Jew vs Catholic thing, my two cents.
Many Jews who do that have mystic tendencies, Many jewish converts in medieval Spain were heavely into mysticism and philosophy.
See Edith Stein, she was both, a mystic and a philosopher.
And mystics tend to die young, Jewish or not. See Edith Stein again.

Great suffering meet greater rewards.

Outside the Hasidim Jews are more practical that mystic. Hence the atraction or Catholicism. More if you are female.

I have always been a highly mystically-minded person; this is what drew me to Chasidism in fact! I have never liked any religion from its rationalistic side (even though I was raised in traditional, rationalistic Orthodox Judaism).

The sad thing is, there have been Jews who were like me, in that they were heavily drawn to religious mysticism, and so, went outside Judaism to find it…because most non-Chasidic Jews do not realize that Judaism is rich in our own mysticism.

There is a Jewish saying, that a person does not need to leave his own “home” to find what he is looking for. Jews do not need to go to Buddhism or Catholicism to find mysticism. It is readily available in Judaism, and always has been.

For me, I never felt any need, as a mystical person, to leave my “home” for the flesh pots of Egypt. I find all the mysticism I want in Chasidism and the Jewish Renewal Movement.

 

[inthecloud]

Edit Stein’s mystic tendencies had anything to do with her short life span!

Yes I know! but is like she took refuge into mysticism amid the storm.

I have always been a highly mystically-minded person; this is what drew me to Chasidism in fact! I have never liked any religion from its rationalistic side (even though I was raised in traditional, rationalistic Orthodox Judaism).

The sad thing is, there have been Jews who were like me, in that they were heavily drawn to religious mysticism, and so, went outside Judaism to find it…because most non-Chasidic Jews do not realize that Judaism is rich in our own mysticism.

Dead on. Many of the Jewish women who become nuns are a example.

 

[Eden]

I see the humor in it, and Rabbi Neusner is a very interesting guy!

I would personally phrase it like this: “I’m not offended when Christians eat pork…but I am offended when they try to make me eat it” (figuratively speaking).

Light answered with heavy (literally speaking “victimization mentality”). You’re incorrigible. Maybe that is why the Rabbi has been more successful with inter-religious dialogue.

 

[HashemEchad]

Light answered with heavy (literally speaking “victimization mentality”). You’re incorrigible. Maybe that is why the Rabbi has been more successful with inter-religious dialogue.

Believe it or not, I’ve also been very active offline in Jewish-Christian ecumenical relations work. I have met and befriended some well-known people in this work, including the late John Cardinal O’Connor, whom I counted as a good friend of mine and with whom I shared much correspondence. Cardinal O’Connor, as I’m sure you will agree, was a great man and a prince of the church. Yet not once did he ever try to convert me. And he helped a Jewish man named Stephen Dubner in his return to Judaism from the Catholicism in which he had been raised.

It actually was not until I ended up here that I began to really meet adult Catholics who harbor bitterness and a conversionary mentality toward Jews (not all of you, but many of you).

How do many Catholics feel about Jack Chick, due to his constant efforts to convert Catholics and misinterpret their beliefs? Not very friendly, I’m sure. Well, its like that.

 

[Cathdefender]

Believe it or not, I’ve also been very active offline in Jewish-Christian ecumenical relations work. I have met and befriended some well-known people in this work, including the late John Cardinal O’Connor, whom I counted as a good friend of mine and with whom I shared much correspondence. Cardinal O’Connor, as I’m sure you will agree, was a great man and a prince of the church. Yet not once did he ever try to convert me. And he helped a Jewish man named Stephen Dubner in his return to Judaism from the Catholicism in which he had been raised.

It actually was not until I ended up here that I began to really meet adult Catholics who harbor bitterness and a conversionary mentality toward Jews (not all of you, but many of you).

How do many Catholics feel about Jack Chick, due to his constant efforts to convert Catholics and misinterpret their beliefs? Not very friendly, I’m sure. Well, its like that.

It is not the Catholics who try and convert you but the off-shoots of the off-shoots of Protestanism. Evangelicals, Baptists and the like are mostly the ones who will try and do so.
Catholics are content with their beliefs. We say what we need to say and let you think about it. If you believe in it, the Holy spirit will guide you toward it.
Why would a Catholic harbor any bitterness toward you or any Jews on here? We are content, therefore why would we??
And to compare Chick to a devout Catholic is an insult. That guy is a nut case, there isn’t even a catagory for him. I don’t know of any smart, educated Catholic who is learned in his/her faith would give Chick even the time of day.

 

[HashemEchad]

It is not the Catholics who try and convert you but the off-shoots of the off-shoots of Protestanism. Evangelicals, Baptists and the like are mostly the ones who will try and do so.
Catholics are content with their beliefs. We say what we need to say and let you think about it. If you believe in it, the Holy spirit will guide you toward it.
Why would a Catholic harbor any bitterness toward you or any Jews on here? We are content, therefore why would we??
And to compare Chick to a devout Catholic is an insult. That guy is a nut case, there isn’t even a catagory for him. I don’t know of any smart, educated Catholic who is learned in his/her faith would give Chick even the time of day.

In the few months I have been here, I have had MANY Catholics right here try to proselytize me. It got so annoying I had to add what I did to my sig line, in the hopes they would stop (and for the most part, they did.)

It was very unexpected for me, because the many, many Catholics I know and have known offline (both in Jewish-Catholic ecumenical work, the pro-life work and in general) have never done that.

 

[Cathdefender]

In the few months I have been here, I have had MANY Catholics right here try to proselytize me. It got so annoying I had to add what I did to my sig line, in the hopes they would stop (and for the most part, they did.)

It was very unexpected for me, because the many, many Catholics I know and have known offline (both in Jewish-Catholic ecumenical work, the pro-life work and in general) have never done that.

Ok, but why would Catholics be bitter toward you? As you stated in your last post?

 

[mercygate]

The reason why I make an issue of former Jews claiming to have been raised “strictly Orthodox” is because they often like to claim that because they feel it gives more weight to their “testimony”.

Yeah. Catholics do that, too, when they bolt. How many threads have you looked at on these forums where somebody boasts “I was raised Catholic” or “I went to Catholic school” – but they have NO knowledge of the faith worthy of anybody above a 4th grade level?

People is people.

 

[HashemEchad]

Ok, but why would Catholics be bitter toward you? As you stated in your last post?

I have only met a few Catholics in my life who were “bitter” toward me, and they were always the “you killed Christ” types, which perhaps explains it.

And that, I never understood. My late mother (a former Catholic, converted to Judaism) used to say to me, “I never understood why Catholics hate Jews for that (the crucifixion)…according to their belief, Jesus died for their sins, so they should be grateful to whomever caused him to die, because without his death, they would not have their salvation”.

My mom used to tell me that it was actually the hearing of “the Jews killed Christ” when she was a little girl growing up (she also attended Catholic school) that actually first made her curious about Jews and Judaism.

God works in mysterious ways.

 

[HashemEchad]

Yeah. Catholics do that, too, when they bolt. How many threads have you looked at on these forums where somebody boasts “I was raised Catholic” or “I went to Catholic school” – but they have NO knowledge of the faith worthy of anybody above a 4th grade level?

People is people.

I do not for the life of me understand why people feel a need to do that. Then again, I have never switched from one religion to another.

But as I said in another post, my late mother converted in the 1940s, from Catholicism to Judaism. Yet she never badmouthed her former religion, and only spoke of it when I would ask her to tell me about her childhood, her former religion, etc. I really never heard her say one bad thing, and this is why I was so shocked when, as a teenager, I did meet someone who converted (from Catholicism to Judaism), and who badmouthed his former religion. My mom said (when I told her about it), “Evidently he converted for the wrong reasons…because when you find a new religion that really speaks to you, you don’t need to worry about the old one anymore.”

Why DO (some) people do that? I used to know a Chasidic Jew who came from a long line of Pentecostal preachers in KY, and he was that way too!