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Ron_in_minden
Guest
Would I be correct in my interpretation of this passage to be proof of man and dinosaurs (Sauropod) living at the same time in history? Did my science teacher get it wrong?
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Judas_Thaddeus
Guest
http://ibornforthis.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/Captain-Picard-Facepalm-Cookie-Cutter.jpg
God Help Us.
Did the word “Dinosaur” appear in the text of Job? What about Sauropod? T-Rex?
Why not?
Because the Bible wasn’t talking about them! :banghead:
Try reading Bible commentaries.usccb.org/bible/job/40
(Scroll Down to the Bottom for Footnotes)
Pardon the mild steam, you’re probably just asking, but many Creationists cite the
Leviathan and Behemoth passages to prove dinosaurs existed with man, evolution
is so wrong, there’s this great scientific conspiracy to bring down religion, and it’s
really just so ridiculous, not you (necessarily), but “them.”
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Jon_S_1
Guest
Um no
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Aloysium
Guest
There is a lot of beauty and truth in Job. Nothing about dinosaurs, sorry.
View attachment 19128
Behemoth and Leviathan, a watercolour by William Blake from his Illustrations of the Book of Job.
View attachment 19128
Behemoth and Leviathan, a watercolour by William Blake from his Illustrations of the Book of Job.
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ShynSup
Guest
The image wasnt needed at all, thats why he was asking a question.
Regarding the verse, its quite accurate to say that its not referring to a normal sized animal.
Also, does an hippotamous seems like a “monster of chaos” to you?
I mean putting the words chaos and hippopotamus together is literally creating an oxymoron.
Moreover, if you look at verse 19 it says “He is the first of God’s ways”. Yup, its quite logical that God created hipos before any other animal.
Lastly, this is all about opinions, you might be wrong, I might be wrong, but nothing is certain on matters like these, so stop being so agressive please. You can really hurt people like that, believe it or not.
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Ron_in_minden
Guest
No worries, I don’t buy the dinosaur theory myself, I just wondered where it came from in the first place and what kind of evidence could there be for such a conclusion. P.S. Picard is my favorite Enterprise captain.
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Aloysium
Guest
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Judas_Thaddeus
Guest
If you watch Animal Planet more often than cartoons, you will find that the
hippopotamus is a rather nasty and aggressive creature. The ancients did
regard the hippopotamus AT THE VERY LEAST as symbolic of uncontrol-
lable chaos. Consider the Egyptian goddess Taweret, for example.
Also, the USCCB didn’t say that God was talking about a hippopotamus, but
a primeval monster of chaos, something that only God could have overcome,
and if the thought of a hippopotamus helped an ancient man like Job under-
stand, then so be it, that’s how the ancients understood.
Do you really think that scholars are stupid enough to link hippos with chaos for
no logical and apparent reason? Like they wouldn’t see that so called oxymoron
of which you speak?
Let’s but on our thinking caps now. http://bitmapworld.com/char/propeller.gif
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RPRPsych
Guest
While I wouldn’t go the facepalm route, I think this young earth creationism stuff is a distraction from the true problems that confront our faith. Plenty of non-Christians also believe in young earth creationism (check out ISKCON, with whom Michael Behe has been collaborating of late).
Am I a creationist (do I believe in “God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth”)? Yes.
Do I believe that atheistic evolution is erroneous? Yes.
Do I believe that all scientific enquiry into the origins of life and the Universe (including the work of people like Francis Collins) is erroneous? Not at all.
As for conspiracy theories, here’s a song for all those who believe in them:
youtube.com/watch?v=DX_0JurT7c8
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Gorgias
Guest
For us, today, maybe not – but that’s immaterial: in his day, and in his culture, this creature stood for ‘chaos’. Think about animals that have certain associations in our day: would it make sense to other cultures to think of elephants as not being ‘forgetful’? As long as a hippo represented the forces of evil (on land) to the author’s culture, then we’re all good…
I’m sorry – does it say “he is the first-created of God’s ways”? No… just that he is first. In the Greek, the word used here is ἀρχὴ (arché), which means that he is preeminant or foremost among them. Now that you mention it, it does make sense that, when the ancients saw a hippo – and its strength! – they would think that he was the foremost in terms of power among the animals!
Which is why you’re being sarcastic, too…?
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ShynSup
Guest
All wild animals are aggressive.
You are failing to appreciate the uniqueness of the description. Job is clearly not referring to any existing animal, but most likely to a prehistoric creature.
Uncontrollable chaos. Yup, maybe you should look up what hippos do most of the time.
They are far more chaotic animals out there than hippos.
Also hippos can be quite easily overcome with some spears and 3 men. Thats it.
Moreover, notice Job describes the tail as a cedar, tail hippos almost do not have…
Agreed the usccb never said God was talking about hippos. But it SOME scholars did. Trust me, some scholars are pretty bad at interpreting the bible.
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Judas_Thaddeus
Guest
You’re the one failing to understand how the ancients thought. Clearly the example of the
Egyptians didn’t reach you at all. Now why do you insist that the scholars are wrong and
that Behemoth MUST “most likely” be a prehistoric creature?
You say that some scholars are bad at interpreting the Bible, and I can agree,
but what drives you to believe that you’re opinion is more probable than theirs?
Think like an ancient person now, not a modern Creationist.
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ShynSup
Guest
Hippo is more a force of water than of land. In fact, the word comes from the greek “river horse”For us, today, maybe not – but that’s immaterial: in his day, and in his culture, this creature stood for ‘chaos’. Think about animals that have certain associations in our day: would it make sense to other cultures to think of elephants as not being ‘forgetful’? As long as a hippo represented the forces of evil (on land) to the author’s culture, then we’re all good…
I’m sorry – does it say “he is the first-created of God’s ways”? No… just that he is first. In the Greek, the word used here is ἀρχὴ (arché), which means that he is preeminant or foremost among them. Now that you mention it, it does make sense that, when the ancients saw a hippo – and its strength! – they would think that he was the foremost in terms of power among the animals!
Which is why you’re being sarcastic, too…?
Actually they are much stronger and bigger animals than hippos, such as rhinos, or buffalos or bears or elephants.
Preeminent among animals? Yup sure if you spend most of your life time “sleeping” under water.
For an animal to be preeminent over all the rest not only strength is considered, agility, intelligence, speed, etc etc, thats why lions and tigers are the kings of the jungle.
Sarcastic?? What? Sorry I am not following you…
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ShynSup
Guest
Actually, couldn’t see the link and did not take the time to look it up because I really don’t care what Egyptians thought. They were pagans, idolaters, and even wizards.
Why do I insist? Because of the uniqueness of the description. Its detailed enough to see man was frightened and stunned by this creature, by its size, strength, such that only god could overcome it. I cannot think of an existing animal suiting the description. If its prehistoric, who knows, but it became extinct…
What drives me? All that I am saying, should I copy paste it again?
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oldcelt
Guest
Completely wrong… In fact it is now believed that the fossilized remains of these beasties may have given rise to the giants that appear in ancient mythology. Having never seen these animal while they were alive the attempted to reassemble them based on their knowledge,which was none. Quite often the came up with human looking things.
This is much like the current day searches in the Congo. Some believe that a Brachiosaur or a close relative lives along the river corridor. This is all based on native myths and supposed sightings. Yet, when a true scientific team explores the area, they find nothing. Animals like this do not live alone, need water, foliage, etc to survive. Even one family group would leave easily identifiable sign.
Fortunately, they are all dead, and have been for about 65 million years,
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Petaro
Guest
You don’t suffer them gladly, do you? But you are so correct in your correction. It is too easy for creationists to take one passage of the Bible, like a number of Protestant groups, and develop a cosmology around it. This is not Catholic exegesis.
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Judas_Thaddeus
Guest
Irrelevant, as the Egyptians are only ONE example of people who had that
same understanding as the Israelites had. Again, think like an ancient per-
son, not a modern Creationist.
Man back then were not frightened by the sight of the hippopotamus?
Let’s now look at the phrase “I cannot think of an existing animal,” or
better zoom in on “I cannot think…” which is rather obvious. Scholars
CAN think, and they found that the creature in question is supposed
to be symbolized by something a man like Job would know about, not
an extinct dinosaur.
Yes please, copy/paste that phrase also, “I cannot think…,” kinda brings the point home.
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ShynSup
Guest
Well man seems you are not interested in havinga nice friendly argumentation, so whatever.
The fact that egyptians got it all wrong is not irrelevant…
They are scholars who say Job is reffering to something as a dinosaour. So yea.
Why I think the hippo theory is wrong? Copy pasting, as it seems you have some slow comprehension.
All wild animals are aggressive.
You are failing to appreciate the uniqueness of the description. Job is clearly not referring to any existing animal, but most likely to a prehistoric creature.
Uncontrollable chaos. Yup, maybe you should look up what hippos do most of the time.
They are far more chaotic animals out there than hippos.
Also hippos can be quite easily overcome with some spears and 3 men. Thats it.
Moreover, notice Job describes the tail as a cedar, tail hippos almost do not have…
Actually they are much stronger and bigger animals than hippos, such as rhinos, or buffalos or bears or elephants.
Preeminent among animals? Yup sure if you spend most of your life time “sleeping” under water.
For an animal to be preeminent over all the rest not only strength is considered, agility, intelligence, speed, etc etc, thats why lions and tigers are the kings of the jungle.
The descrption is clearly not reffering to a hippo.
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Judas_Thaddeus
Guest
It’s difficult to be friendly towards people who don’t listen to intelligent scholastic information.
No, you’re position is that “Egyptian were like Pagans, so they’re so wrong…” What?
Real scholars? or Creationist ‘scholars’ who base their intelligence on fantasies to support their literal interpretation of the Bible?
That is not though how the ancients thought, that is how a modern Creationist with no objective thinking skills work.
I’ve done my homework, you do yours now, no more personal beliefs on the subject.
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ShynSup
Guest
You keep up with the ad hominous and never reply my arguments, that works.
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