Job 40:15-24 Biblical proof of dinosaurs and man

[Judas_Thaddeus]

Younkeepmup with the ad hominous and never reply my arguments, that works.

Anyway, I made no ad hominem argument here. Ad hominem would be if I attacked your
character as a counterattack to your arguments. You are the one who made ad hominem
towards the Egyptians, trying to say their Pagan therefore the hippo was not a terrifying
creature to the ancients so therefore Behemoth could not possibly be represented by the
hippopotamus therefore it must be talking about dinosaurs or some extinct creature.

Try this video out:
youtube.com/watch?v=59-HYxR3Gog

 

[Gorgias]

Actually they are much stronger and bigger animals than hippos, such as rhinos, or buffalos or bears or elephants.

Elephants tend to be bigger than hippos, and some rhinos can be bigger, yes… but hippos are just about the most aggessive land mammal out there. Hippos are well-known for their aggression, even to humans – they’re known to attack people on boats, when the boats encroach on their territory.

For an animal to be preeminent over all the rest not only strength is considered, agility, intelligence, speed, etc etc, thats why lions and tigers are the kings of the jungle.

It’s really funny that you mention that: you see, lions tend not to be able to kill hippos; even when it’s one hippo against a pride, hippos can kill a lion and send the pride running for safety.

 

[Gorgias]

Uncontrollable chaos. Yup, maybe you should look up what hippos do most of the time.
They are far more chaotic animals out there than hippos.

I think you’re confusing ‘predator behavior’ with ‘chaos’. A hippo isn’t a predator; so, one would expect that it would not attack another species of animal. Yet, hippos have been known to kill crocodiles in their territories, and kill lions when the lions attempt to attack them. That kind of aggression, from a ‘prey’ animal, certainly meets the definition of ‘chaos’!

Moreover, notice Job describes the tail as a cedar, tail hippos almost do not have.

Actually, you might want to go back and read what’s really there: Job isn’t describing the size of the tail, but rather, how it moves its tail. Hippos stiffen and rotate their tails (in order to mark their territory with their feces); so, they take their tail, and make a ‘cedar tree’ out of it, and whirlygig it around.

Trust me, some scholars are pretty bad at interpreting the bible.

Interesting; so, the scholars who you reference (who claim Behemoth to be a dinosaur) are pretty good at interpreting the Bible, but some scholars (who claim Behemoth to be a hippo) are pretty bad at interpreting the Bible? I think we’d assert exactly the opposite…

 

[Jon_S_1]

If man and dinosaurs lived together, where are the other descriptions? Wouldn’t this be significant to have come up somewhere in the Biblical stories?

But on a side note…did you read the rest of the chapter?

Under the lotus plants it lies,
hidden among the reeds in the marsh.
22 The lotuses conceal it in their shadow;
the poplars by the stream surround it.
23 A raging river does not alarm it;
it is secure, though the Jordan should surge against its mouth.
24 Can anyone capture it by the eyes,
or trap it and pierce its nose?

Lotus plants are plants that grow on water. These plants are enough to conceal it. Raging waters do not alarm it and it is happy living in the water.

Sounds very Hippo to me.

Could a brontosaurus hide under lotus plants in a river?

There tails even look like miniature cedar trees.

Everyone looks at that one verse. Tail like a cedar tree and that first thing that comes to mind is a dinosaur tail and then all reasoning, and critical thinking goes out the window.

Of course, hippopotamus is one of the most feared animals in Africa,

“The hippo is responsible for more human fatalities in Africa than any other large animal. Male hippos actively defend their territories which run along the banks of rivers and lakes. Females have also been known to get extremely aggressive if they sense anyone coming in between their babies, who stay in the water while she feeds on the shore. Hippos can run at speeds of over 20 miles an hour and they have enormous jaws which host up to 20 inch canines.”

source:Africas most dangerous animals goafrica.about.com/od/africasafariguide/tp/dangerousanimals.htm

It should also be noted that Job is poetic in the way it is written. Another poetic book is Song of Solomon, which describes (what people believe to be a woman) in the following ways:

How beautiful you are, my darling!
Oh, how beautiful!
Your eyes behind your veil are doves.
Your hair is like a flock of goats
descending from the hills of Gilead.
2 Your teeth are like a flock of sheep just shorn,
coming up from the washing.
Each has its twin;
not one of them is alone.
3 Your lips are like a scarlet ribbon;
your mouth is lovely.
Your temples behind your veil
are like the halves of a pomegranate.
4 Your neck is like the tower of David,
built with courses of stone[a];
on it hang a thousand shields,
all of them shields of warriors.
5 Your breasts are like two fawns,
like twin fawns of a gazelle
that browse among the lilies.
6 Until the day breaks
and the shadows flee,
I will go to the mountain of myrrh
and to the hill of incense.
7 You are altogether beautiful, my darling;
there is no flaw in you.

Now one can say, “Where is this creature with a neck of stone and breasts like fawns, temples like pomegranates, and hair like goats?”

One might find a mythical creature that looks like this:

 

[Usagi]

While a dinosaur would be even more impressive than a hippo, it’s still just an animal, not a force of Chaos that only God could defeat. Your arguments against the hippo work just as well against any real-life animal, ShynSup.

I suspect that the Leviathan was a fictional animal created as a personification of the primordial Chaos. God being able to defeat Leviathan is a representation of His being powerful enough to create the Universe. As with dragons and other fictional animals, later there may have been people who saw a big, scary real-life animal and thought it was Leviathan or its land-bound pal Behemoth.

Either way, the mention of those creatures in Job is no evidence of dinosaurs surviving into the human era.

Usagi

 

[ShynSup]

Elephants tend to be bigger than hippos, and some rhinos can be bigger, yes… but hippos are just about the most aggessive land mammal out there. Hippos are well-known for their aggression, even to humans – they’re known to attack people on boats, when the boats encroach on their territory.

It’s really funny that you mention that: you see, lions tend not to be able to kill hippos; even when it’s one hippo against a pride, hippos can kill a lion and send the pride running for safety.

Woa, what a thing. You know, if you get close to any wild animal and their territory they will attack you too.

Lions do no hunt hippos. Its not abou who kills each other in 1v1. A hippo is stronger than man, but we dominate the planet. Same lions with the jungle.

But fine, grab just the lion over all the other animals I mentioned.

 

[ShynSup]

I think you’re confusing ‘predator behavior’ with ‘chaos’. A hippo isn’t a predator; so, one would expect that it would not attack another species of animal. Yet, hippos have been known to kill crocodiles in their territories, and kill lions when the lions attempt to attack them. That kind of aggression, from a ‘prey’ animal, certainly meets the definition of ‘chaos’!

Actually, you might want to go back and read what’s really there: Job isn’t describing the size of the tail, but rather, how it moves its tail. Hippos stiffen and rotate their tails (in order to mark their territory with their feces); so, they take their tail, and make a ‘cedar tree’ out of it, and whirlygig it around.

Interesting; so, the scholars who you reference (who claim Behemoth to be a dinosaur) are pretty good at interpreting the Bible, but some scholars (who claim Behemoth to be a hippo) are pretty bad at interpreting the Bible? I think we’d assert exactly the opposite…

How is a moving tail and faces flying in the air comprable to a cedar tree?

 

[ShynSup]

Anyway, I made no ad hominem argument here. Ad hominem would be if I attacked your
character as a counterattack to your arguments. You are the one who made ad hominem
towards the Egyptians, trying to say their Pagan therefore the hippo was not a terrifying
creature to the ancients so therefore Behemoth could not possibly be represented by the
hippopotamus therefore it must be talking about dinosaurs or some extinct creature.

Try this video out:
youtube.com/watch?v=59-HYxR3Gog

From the start your agression is noticiable. Even towards the OP with the “facepalm” picture and everything else.

You are so stubborn in winning an argument over the internet you forget you mission as a Christian, to act and try to do eveyrthing with love and as Jesus would do them.

Regarding Egyptcians, they probably nver gotmout of the nile so cant blame them.

But as stated before, we do not hold the absolute truth over these things.

 

[Gorgias]

Woa, what a thing. You know, if you get close to any wild animal and their territory they will attack you too.

Agreed. Yet, hippos are well-known as one of the most aggressive.

Lions do no hunt hippos.

Actually, they do – but it’s only the young (and therefore inexperienced) or desperate lion who attempts it.

we dominate the planet. Same lions with the jungle.

Again, it might help if you did some research.

But fine, grab just the lion over all the other animals I mentioned.

Because you mentioned them as “king of the jungle”. That’s some king, that gives a hippo a wide berth…

How is a moving tail and faces flying in the air comprable to a cedar tree?

Ask the Scriptural author; he’s the one who made the allusion to the movement of the cedar (not its size)…

 

[RPRPsych]

If man and dinosaurs lived together, where are the other descriptions? Wouldn’t this be significant to have come up somewhere in the Biblical stories?

But on a side note…did you read the rest of the chapter?

Under the lotus plants it lies,
hidden among the reeds in the marsh.
22 The lotuses conceal it in their shadow;
the poplars by the stream surround it.
23 A raging river does not alarm it;
it is secure, though the Jordan should surge against its mouth.
24 Can anyone capture it by the eyes,
or trap it and pierce its nose?

Lotus plants are plants that grow on water. These plants are enough to conceal it. Raging waters do not alarm it and it is happy living in the water.

Sounds very Hippo to me.

Could a brontosaurus hide under lotus plants in a river?

There tails even look like miniature cedar trees.

Everyone looks at that one verse. Tail like a cedar tree and that first thing that comes to mind is a dinosaur tail and then all reasoning, and critical thinking goes out the window.

Of course, hippopotamus is one of the most feared animals in Africa,

“The hippo is responsible for more human fatalities in Africa than any other large animal. Male hippos actively defend their territories which run along the banks of rivers and lakes. Females have also been known to get extremely aggressive if they sense anyone coming in between their babies, who stay in the water while she feeds on the shore. Hippos can run at speeds of over 20 miles an hour and they have enormous jaws which host up to 20 inch canines.”

source:Africas most dangerous animals goafrica.about.com/od/africasafariguide/tp/dangerousanimals.htm

It should also be noted that Job is poetic in the way it is written. Another poetic book is Song of Solomon, which describes (what people believe to be a woman) in the following ways:

How beautiful you are, my darling!
Oh, how beautiful!
Your eyes behind your veil are doves.
Your hair is like a flock of goats
descending from the hills of Gilead.
2 Your teeth are like a flock of sheep just shorn,
coming up from the washing.
Each has its twin;
not one of them is alone.
3 Your lips are like a scarlet ribbon;
your mouth is lovely.
Your temples behind your veil
are like the halves of a pomegranate.
4 Your neck is like the tower of David,
built with courses of stone[a];
on it hang a thousand shields,
all of them shields of warriors.
5 Your breasts are like two fawns,
like twin fawns of a gazelle
that browse among the lilies.
6 Until the day breaks
and the shadows flee,
I will go to the mountain of myrrh
and to the hill of incense.
7 You are altogether beautiful, my darling;
there is no flaw in you.

Now one can say, “Where is this creature with a neck of stone and breasts like fawns, temples like pomegranates, and hair like goats?”

One might find a mythical creature that looks like this:

Welcome houghfamilyblog.com - BlueHost.com

 

[ShynSup]

Who knows, maybe dinosours actually died before or not, the thing is the Earth is about 6000 years old and so dinosours could have been still alive when man was created and exiled from heaven.

 

[Ron_in_minden]

If man and dinosaurs lived together, where are the other descriptions? Wouldn’t this be significant to have come up somewhere in the Biblical stories?

But on a side note…did you read the rest of the chapter?

Under the lotus plants it lies,
hidden among the reeds in the marsh.
22 The lotuses conceal it in their shadow;
the poplars by the stream surround it.
23 A raging river does not alarm it;
it is secure, though the Jordan should surge against its mouth.
24 Can anyone capture it by the eyes,
or trap it and pierce its nose?

Lotus plants are plants that grow on water. These plants are enough to conceal it. Raging waters do not alarm it and it is happy living in the water.

Sounds very Hippo to me.

Could a brontosaurus hide under lotus plants in a river?

There tails even look like miniature cedar trees.

Everyone looks at that one verse. Tail like a cedar tree and that first thing that comes to mind is a dinosaur tail and then all reasoning, and critical thinking goes out the window.

Of course, hippopotamus is one of the most feared animals in Africa,

“The hippo is responsible for more human fatalities in Africa than any other large animal. Male hippos actively defend their territories which run along the banks of rivers and lakes. Females have also been known to get extremely aggressive if they sense anyone coming in between their babies, who stay in the water while she feeds on the shore. Hippos can run at speeds of over 20 miles an hour and they have enormous jaws which host up to 20 inch canines.”

source:Africas most dangerous animals goafrica.about.com/od/africasafariguide/tp/dangerousanimals.htm

It should also be noted that Job is poetic in the way it is written. Another poetic book is Song of Solomon, which describes (what people believe to be a woman) in the following ways:

How beautiful you are, my darling!
Oh, how beautiful!
Your eyes behind your veil are doves.
Your hair is like a flock of goats
descending from the hills of Gilead.
2 Your teeth are like a flock of sheep just shorn,
coming up from the washing.
Each has its twin;
not one of them is alone.
3 Your lips are like a scarlet ribbon;
your mouth is lovely.
Your temples behind your veil
are like the halves of a pomegranate.
4 Your neck is like the tower of David,
built with courses of stone[a];
on it hang a thousand shields,
all of them shields of warriors.
5 Your breasts are like two fawns,
like twin fawns of a gazelle
that browse among the lilies.
6 Until the day breaks
and the shadows flee,
I will go to the mountain of myrrh
and to the hill of incense.
7 You are altogether beautiful, my darling;
there is no flaw in you.

Now one can say, “Where is this creature with a neck of stone and breasts like fawns, temples like pomegranates, and hair like goats?”

One might find a mythical creature that looks like this:

Welcome houghfamilyblog.com - BlueHost.com

I think you nailed it.

 

[Usagi]

Who knows, maybe dinosours actually died before or not, the thing is the Earth is about 6000 years old and so dinosours could have been still alive when man was created and exiled from heaven.

First, the Earth and indeed human beings are way more than 6000 years old.

Second, humans were never exiled from heaven. We never lived there in the first place.

Usagi

 

[ShynSup]

First, the Earth and indeed human beings are way more than 6000 years old.

Second, humans were never exiled from heaven. We never lived there in the first place.

Usagi

Wut?

Human beings were created FOR heaven. And yes, Adam and Eve actually lived in paradise.

Early creatinism is as valid as old creatinism, I am a catholic and believe in the word of the saints, who believe in early creationism such as Saint Agustine.

 

[Usagi]

Wut?

Human beings were created FOR heaven. And yes, Adam and Eve actually lived in paradise.

Early creatinism is as valid as old creatinism, I am a catholic and believe in the word of the saints, who believe in early creationism such as Saint Agustine.

Paradise/the Garden of Eden is not Heaven. At least, not according to any Catholic source I’m familiar with.

On the other topic, St. Augustine also famously said to avoid insisting on an interpretation of Scripture that is so opposed to observed reality that people think Christianity is for idiots.

Usagi

 

[Jon_S_1]

Wut?

Human beings were created FOR heaven. And yes, Adam and Eve actually lived in paradise.

Early creatinism is as valid as old creatinism, I am a catholic and believe in the word of the saints, who believe in early creationism such as Saint Agustine.

No no no!

Angels were created for heaven.

Humans were created for earth!

The earth is most certainly older than 6,000 years. I mean we have some civilizations dating older than that.

Genesis 1

26 Then God said, “Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals,[a] and over all the creatures that move along the ground.”

27 So God created mankind in his own image,
in the image of God he created them;
male and female he created them.
28 God blessed them and said to them, “Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky and over every living creature that moves on the ground.”

Genesis 2

4 This is the account of the heavens and the earth when they were created, when the Lord God made the earth and the heavens.

5 Now no shrub had yet appeared on the earth[a] and no plant had yet sprung up, for the Lord God had not sent rain on the earth and there was no one to work the ground, 6 but streams** came up from the earth and watered the whole surface of the ground. 7 Then the Lord God formed a man[c] from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being.

8 Now the Lord God had planted a garden in the east, in Eden; and there he put the man he had formed. 9 The Lord God made all kinds of trees grow out of the ground—trees that were pleasing to the eye and good for food. In the middle of the garden were the tree of life and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.**

 

[ShynSup]

Paradise/the Garden of Eden is not Heaven. At least, not according to any Catholic source I’m familiar with.

On the other topic, St. Augustine also famously said to avoid insisting on an interpretation of Scripture that is so opposed to observed reality that people think Christianity is for idiots.

Usagi

Um, heavne and paradise are used interchangeably. There is not heaven and laradise and the Eden. Its all one place.

2 Corinthians 12 2-4

2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth such an one caught up to the third heaven.

3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth

4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

Rephrase your last sentence, and please qoute saint agustine saying that.

 

[ShynSup]

No no no!

Angels were created for heaven.

Humans were created for earth!

The earth is most certainly older than 6,000 years. I mean we have some civilizations dating older than that.

Genesis 1

26 Then God said, “Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals,[a] and over all the creatures that move along the ground.”

27 So God created mankind in his own image,
in the image of God he created them;
male and female he created them.
28 God blessed them and said to them, “Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky and over every living creature that moves on the ground.”

Genesis 2

4 This is the account of the heavens and the earth when they were created, when the Lord God made the earth and the heavens.

5 Now no shrub had yet appeared on the earth[a] and no plant had yet sprung up, for the Lord God had not sent rain on the earth and there was no one to work the ground, 6 but streams** came up from the earth and watered the whole surface of the ground. 7 Then the Lord God formed a man[c] from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being.

8 Now the Lord God had planted a garden in the east, in Eden; and there he put the man he had formed. 9 The Lord God made all kinds of trees grow out of the ground—trees that were pleasing to the eye and good for food. In the middle of the garden were the tree of life and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.**

No.

Before the fall, we were like angels.

 

[Jon_S_1]

Um, heavne and paradise are used interchangeably. There is not heaven and laradise and the Eden. Its all one place.

2 Corinthians 12 2-4

2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth such an one caught up to the third heaven.

3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth

4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

Rephrase your last sentence, and please qoute saint agustine saying that.

Heaven and Paradise may be interchangeable. But heaven and earth are not.

God created the earth and all we see in it. Then he created man for the earth. On earth.

Eden was on the earth. This is why it’s entrance was guarded after the fall so that Adam and Eve could not return

This is why the Bible tells us exactly where it was. Two of the rivers we still know today and the third is most likely under the sea in the Persian gulf.

I don’t know where you get this idea that man was meant to reside in heaven or that Eden was not on the earth.

Do you take a very literal view of Job and then a very mystical view of genesis?

 

[Jon_S_1]

No.

Before the fall, we were like angels.

Show me in scripture where it says that because:

1. The Catholic Church completely rejects such an idea
2. I have no recollection of my preexistence in heaven
3. As far as I know, only the Mormons hold such a position as doctrine.