John 1:1

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Dan,

As I am sure you are aware in your studies from history, the Church rejected your point of view (Arianism) outright at around 325. This is why we have the Nicene Creed. The Church then some 50 or 60 years later (with the help of the Holy Spirit) gave us the Canon of Scripture you use today…

So, why do you accept the authority of the Church to give you the Canon, but you deny that very same authority to say Arianism was heretical.
 
teak421 said:
Dan,

As I am sure you are aware in your studies from history, the Church rejected your point of view (Arianism) outright at around 325. This is why we have the Nicene Creed. The Church then some 50 or 60 years later (with the help of the Holy Spirit) gave us the Canon of Scripture you use today…

So, why do you accept the authority of the Church to give you the Canon, but you deny that very same authority to say Arianism was heretical.
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If you look at your history you will see that was not the end of it. Athanasius lost the next round and was placed into exile. As for the Canon, it is God who protected his word in spite of man, including some in Christendom who would not recognize the book of Revelation.
 
teak421 said:
Can you provide documentation that we have the original manuscripts of any New Testament text?
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Why would I attempt to do this? That is not my position. You replied to this comment of mine:
The problem is that these writings have not been protected like Scripture. The number of ***copies ***we have are very few.

Do you think that my reference to copies was intended to be considered “originals”? That would be an oxymoron.
 
FCEGM said:
I think that’s called whistling in the dark since JW theology can’t even identify the proper shape of the Cross - but St. Justin Martyr could:
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What exactly about that quote makes you beleive that Moses was not holding a vertical implement erect with both of his arms held high over his head?
 
Dan:
Also, you say that Justin would say that the Father created through the Son. Would you mind showing me where he uses the word create in this context? Scripture says God made all things through (DIA) the Son. (Hebrews 1:1-3; John 1:1-3)

FCEGM:
I didn’t have to say it, Dan, since Justin already said it for me - as I previously posted to you:

“And His Son, who alone is properly called Son, the Word who also was with Him and was begotten before the works, when at first He created and arranged all things by Him, is called Christ, in reference to His being anointed and God’s ordering all things through Him,” Second Apology, ch. 2.

I don’t have a problem, in principle, with the thought that God creates through the Son, because in some contexts create refers to the entire process of bringing something into existence all the way through to the end. For example, it could be said that Eve was created even though she was taken from Adam’s rib. (Ge 5:2)

That being said, your quote is less than clear that Christ is being used by God in creation, but what is clear is that he was used to “arrange” and “order” all things. Certainly the ordering and arranging is being highlighted here in any event.
 
Dan_Parker said:
If you look at your history you will see that was not the end of it. Athanasius lost the next round and was placed into exile. As for the Canon, it is God who protected his word in spite of man, including some in Christendom who would not recognize the book of Revelation.
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Please answer the question… Not interested in your opinion of who lost what “round”. I am interested in your answer to my specific question. Do you reject the authority that canonized the Bible… The same authority that rejected Arianism.
  • Michael
 
Dan_Parker said:
Why would I attempt to do this? That is not my position. You replied to this comment of mine:
The problem is that these writings have not been protected like Scripture. The number of ***copies ***we have are very few.

Do you think that my reference to copies was intended to be considered “originals”? That would be an oxymoron.
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Do we have original manuscripts of Scripture?
  • Michael
 
Dan,

I see Justin used a lot in your arguments. I wonder if you would agree with his position on the Eucharist? Or, do you only agree with him (your interpretation of him) on the topics that supports your heretical beliefs.
  • Michael
 
teak421 said:
Please answer the question… Not interested in your opinion of who lost what “round”. I am interested in your answer to my specific question. Do you reject the authority that canonized the Bible… The same authority that rejected Arianism.
  • Michael
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I accept the authority as being God who inspired it and the inspired agents who penned the words. God made sure that his 66 books are universally accepted in Christendom in spite of men who fought against the inclusion of some of the 66 and attempted to include others that are not of the 66.

I brought up Revelation as an example, and instead of you discussing that book you continue to repeat your opinion. That is quite all right, but that is not proof of anything.
 
teak421 said:
Dan,

I see Justin used a lot in your arguments. I wonder if you would agree with his position on the Eucharist? Or, do you only agree with him (your interpretation of him) on the topics that supports your heretical beliefs.
  • Michael
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I did not introduce Justin. A Catholic did. Since it appeared that Catholics consider him to be an authority I decided to investigate further. I don’t have an opinion on his view of the Eucharist. Would you mind translating Eucharist to NT Greek for me?
 
"Dan Parker:
Why would I attempt to do this? That is not my position. You replied to this comment of mine:
Code: 
The problem is that these writings have not been protected like Scripture. The number of copies we have are very few.
Do you think that my reference to copies was intended to be considered “originals”? That would be an oxymoron.
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teak421 said:
Do we have original manuscripts of Scripture?
  • Michael
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No
 
Dan_Parker said:
I did not introduce Justin. A Catholic did. Since it appeared that Catholics consider him to be an authority I decided to investigate further. I don’t have an opinion on his view of the Eucharist. Would you mind translating Eucharist to NT Greek for me?
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I will not allow you to ask me a question until you answer mine… You offered Justin in support of your argument… Now, Justin also said some VERY Catholic things as I offered in my previous post. Will you only use Justin (your interruption of him) when it suites your heretical needs? Or, if you use him as a source, look at his entire readings, get a sense of his beliefs and then reflect.

So, have you read him? Do you think his overall view is a Catholic one? If you do believe he doctrines line up with Catholics, do you think its wise to use him as evidence in your argument?

I am deeply troubled that you need the word Eucharist translated. This word was used quite a bit by the early Church Fathers. Have you read the Early Church Fathers?
  • Michael
 
Dan_Parker said:
I accept the authority as being God who inspired it and the inspired agents who penned the words. God made sure that his 66 books are universally accepted in Christendom in spite of men who fought against the inclusion of some of the 66 and attempted to include others that are not of the 66.

I brought up Revelation as an example, and instead of you discussing that book you continue to repeat your opinion. That is quite all right, but that is not proof of anything.
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Dan… By what earthly manner did God ensure the right books were in the Bible? Was it a Table of Contents? Why wasn’t the Gospel of Thomas included. Or the Epistle of Clement? By what physical activity in the 4th century did we get the “Bible” as we know it. WHO were the agents as you put it that put the Bible together?
  • Michael
 
teak421 said:
I will not allow you to ask me a question until you answer mine… You offered Justin in support of your argument… Now, Justin also said some VERY Catholic things as I offered in my previous post. Will you only use Justin (your interruption of him) when it suites your heretical needs? Or, if you use him as a source, look at his entire readings, get a sense of his beliefs and then reflect.

So, have you read him? Do you think his overall view is a Catholic one? If you do believe he doctrines line up with Catholics, do you think its wise to use him as evidence in your argument?

I am deeply troubled that you need the word Eucharist translated. This word was used quite a bit by the early Church Fathers. Have you read the Early Church Fathers?
  • Michael
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I am looking for the NT verse to which you feel describes this concept. As for his overall view being Catholic, do you agree with that what Lukyn Williams describes sounds Catholic? To answer your question, yes Justin sounds like the Catholic from the 2nd century but not of today.
A. Lukyn Williams, D. D., in his "Justin Martyr: The Dialogue with Trypho. Translation, Introduction, and Notes " (London: Society for Promoting Christian Knowledge; N.Y. & Toronto: The MacMillan Co.; 1930) 301 pages.
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“In each case [where Justin refers theos to Christ,] theos not ho theos . J[ustin] reserves the latter “the God”] for the Supreme God, except in lvi. 10, where the article [anaphorically] marks the God of which the narrative is speaking, and so in lx. 3.” Page 122.
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And on page 124: “Observe that throughout this chapter J[ustin] is insisting, (a) that the Angel is not the Supreme God, (b) and yet is called God.”
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teak421 said:
Dan… By what earthly manner did God ensure the right books were in the Bible? Was it a Table of Contents? Why wasn’t the Gospel of Thomas included. Or the Epistle of Clement? By what physical activity in the 4th century did we get the “Bible” as we know it. WHO were the agents as you put it that put the Bible together?
  • Michael
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Sorry, but I will not allow you to ask me questions until you answer mine. Sound familiar? 😃

Now what about Revelation?
 
Dan_Parker said:
I am looking for the NT verse to which you feel describes this concept. As for his overall view being Catholic, do you agree with that what Lukyn Williams describes sounds Catholic? To answer your question, yes Justin sounds like the Catholic from the 2nd century but not of today.
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Read the entire Chapter of John 6 please… That will shed some light on the Eucharist.
  • Michael
 
teak421 said:
Read the entire Chapter of John 6 please… That will shed some light on the Eucharist.
  • Michael
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And what word in John 6 would be translated Eucharist? I did not find it in the NJB or NAB. And yes, I have read John 6. I have memorized parts of it in Greek as well.
 
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