John 1:1

[Danno2281]

You say you can say it, but you have not said it. Let’s get this in writing, shall we?

When you refer to John 1:1a (In the beginning was the Word) do Modern Catholics including you interpret this to the effect that: at first God was alone, and the Word in Him

What this means is that “at first” there was only one person.

It is you who have determined that that this means that there was only one person; it does not, for the Person of the word was in Him, loved by Him as a person: “hoti egapesas me pro kataboles kosmou” (You have loved me before the creation of the world) Jn.17:24. Before the creation of the world, God was alone, and the Word in HIm. Happy?
And if you think all Greek philosophy and religion were combined, you might want to explain Socrates’ death.

 

[Danno2281]

Thank you. Jehovah’s Witnesses agree that " The Father did not create Jesus in the same way He created the angels."

Very different statement from saying that The Father created Jesus. You imply that the statement affirms Jesus’ creation. It does not; it merely denies creation according to the order of angels to Jesus and does not affirm anything about His having been created. Big difference.

 

[Dan_Parker]

Very different statement from saying that The Father **created **Jesus. You imply that the statement affirms Jesus’ creation. It does not; it merely denies **creation **according to the order of angels to Jesus and does not affirm anything about His having been created. Big difference.

Yes, Wisdom who is Jesus here speaks and says he was **created **in both the Catholic NJB and the Greek Septuagint:

NJB Proverbs 8:22 'Yahweh **created **me, first-fruits of his fashioning, before the oldest of his works.

LXX KURIOS **EKTISEN **ME ARXHN ODWN AUTOU = [The] Lord **created **me [the] beginning of his way.

 

[Dan_Parker]

It is you who have determined that that this means that there was only one person; it does not, for the Person of the word was in Him, loved by Him as a person: “hoti egapesas me pro kataboles kosmou” (You have loved me before the creation of the world) Jn.17:24. Before the creation of the world, God was alone, and the Word in HIm. Happy?
And if you think all Greek philosophy and religion were combined, you might want to explain Socrates’ death.

John 17:5 and 24 do not speak of the Son before he was created and here is why:
NJB John 17:5 Now, Father, glorify me with that glory I had **with you = PARA SEAUTW ** before ever the world existed.

Nlote the words in red? The preposition PARA here is the same one used in the second clause in John 1:1 where the Word was with (ie face to face) God. The construction with PARA followed by the dative pronoun has the sense according to Bauer-Danker-Arndt-Gingrich of “with (of spatial proximity) the Father” and is listed with the gloss “1. marker of nearness in space, at/by (the side of), beside, near, with,” Therefore in this passage the Son was with the Father, at his side, and not in him.

As for saying that the Son was a person before he was begotten, that makes no sense at all and I don’t really believe Catholics teach this.

 

[Danno2281]

John 17:5 and 24 do not speak of the Son before he was created and here is why:
NJB John 17:5 Now, Father, glorify me with that glory I had **with you = PARA SEAUTW ** before ever the world existed.

Nlote the words in red? The preposition PARA here is the same one used in the second clause in John 1:1 where the Word was with (ie face to face) God. The construction with PARA followed by the dative pronoun has the sense according to Bauer-Danker-Arndt-Gingrich of “with (of spatial proximity) the Father” and is listed with the gloss “1. marker of nearness in space, at/by (the side of), beside, near, with,” Therefore in this passage the Son was with the Father, at his side, and not in him.

As for saying that the Son was a person before he was begotten, that makes no sense at all and I don’t really believe Catholics teach this.

1. I did not say that the Son was a person before He was begotten, because there was no time at which He was not begotten. You insist on subjecting the Eternal God to your temporal constructs. I will not.
2. PARA is not at all used in John 1:1. I have no idea how you’re trying to relate this because PARA SEAUTW applies to doxe “that very same glory”.
   Care to try again?
3. Please note that (Jn. 17:24) the Word is loved, (a Person), before creation.

 

[Dan_Parker]

1. I did not say that the Son was a person before He was begotten, because there was no time at which He was not begotten. You insist on subjecting the Eternal God to your temporal constructs. I will not.
2. PARA is not at all used in John 1:1. I have no idea how you’re trying to relate this because PARA SEAUTW applies to doxe “that very same glory”.
   Care to try again?
3. Please note that (Jn. 17:24) the Word is loved, (a Person), before creation.

You are correct, it is PROS that is used in John 1:1. In my rush I neglected to add the verses from John 17 which use PROS such as John 17:11 and 13 (PROS SE). So is it clear that in John 17 Jesus is not speaking being “in” the Father before the creation of the world as you said. Being PROS TON QEON (with God) and PARA TON QEON are two ways of saying the same thing but with slightly different nuances.

As for the term PARA SEAUTW, it does not mean “that very same glory.” If you mean that he was asking to have the very same glory that he had at the side of the Father before the world began, then yes I agree. That is what Bauer-Danker-Arndt-Gingrich Greek Lexicon says this phrase means. I brought that up because Danno was trying to find a verse which could allow him to agree with Theophilus when he said “at first, God was alone, and the Word in him” with respect to John 1:1 “in the beginning was the Word.”

Perhaps you will answer this question for Catholics on this board:

A modern day Catholic would NEVER say that John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” means that "at first God was alone, and the Word in Him, would they?

 

[Dan_Parker]

Danno2281:
3. Please note that (Jn. 17:24) the Word is loved, (a Person), before creation.

Dan:
The creation of the world, not his own creation. Proverbs 8:22 makes it clear that his creation preceded this.

NJB Proverbs 8:22 'Yahweh created me, first-fruits of his fashioning, before the oldest of his works. 23 From everlasting, I was firmly set, from the beginning, before the earth came into being.

 

[Dan_Parker]

Danno2281:

1. I did not say that the Son was a person before He was begotten, because there was no time at which He was not begotten. You insist on subjecting the Eternal God to your temporal constructs. I will not.

Dan:
Fine, I will rephrase. Do you agree that in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” means “at first God was alone and the Word in him?” and that in this state God was not three distinct persons?

The Trinity teaches that the three persons are distinct. Theophilius teaches that John 1:1a refers to God and the Word in Him as other than two distinct persons. Therefore this is not the Trinity.

Do you agree?

 

[Dan_Parker]

Dan,

So where does that leave St. Michael the Archangel in your theology?

The word angel is a function that means messenger. I don’t view it as an ontological description. The Archangel is the foremost one and leader of his angels. In this role his name Michael means ‘Who is like God’? Hebrews 1:3-4 gives us the reason why he is no longer merely an angel

NJB Hebrews 1:3 He is the reflection of God’s glory and bears the impress of God’s own being, sustaining all things by his powerful command; and now that he has purged sins away, he has taken his seat at the right hand of the divine Majesty on high. 4 So he is now as far above the angels as the title which he has inherited is higher than their own name.

 

[SimonArizona]

The word angel is a function that means messenger. I don’t view it as an ontological description. The Archangel is the foremost one and leader of his angels. In this role his name Michael means ‘Who is like God’? Hebrews 1:3-4 gives us the reason why he is no longer merely an angel

NJB Hebrews 1:3 He is the reflection of God’s glory and bears the impress of God’s own being, sustaining all things by his powerful command; and now that he has purged sins away, he has taken his seat at the right hand of the divine Majesty on high. 4 So he is now as far above the angels as the title which he has inherited is higher than their own name.

It is interesting how Our Lord himself rebukes the devil. Mat 17:18 "And Jesus rebuked the devil; "

Yet St. Michael, Jude 1:9, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, does not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke you.

 

[SimonArizona]

Yes, Wisdom who is Jesus here speaks and says he was **created **in both the Catholic NJB and the Greek Septuagint:

NJB Proverbs 8:22 'Yahweh **created **me, first-fruits of his fashioning, before the oldest of his works.

LXX KURIOS **EKTISEN **ME ARXHN ODWN AUTOU = [The] Lord **created **me [the] beginning of his way.

ouch wrong again bud. You do know it is written in Hebrew right?

יהוה
קנה
ראשית

“Yhvh qanah re’shiyth” The Lord *possessed me in the beginning. Qanah *= possessed.

If the inspired writer meant create he would have used the hebrew word: ברא bara’

Gen 1:1 "In the beginning God created *ברא bara’ * the heaven and the earth. "

 

[humble_maid]

God’s Blessings,

Please can anyone inform me where I could find a reliable site for hebrew, greek translation of the bible. I am having a hard time; the only one I found is in PDF format and I cannot copy or paste. Your answers are appreciated.

 

[Dan_Parker]

SimonArizona:
ouch wrong again bud. You do know it is written in Hebrew right?

יהוה
קנה
ראשית

Dan:
Of course, however we have been discussing the quote from Theophilus on John 1:1 which was written in Greek. These Greek Fathers quoted from the Greek Septuagint.

Also, perhaps you missed the fact that I quoted the Catholic New Jerusalem Bible. Perhaps you could petition to have the nihil obstat and imprimatur removed!

SimonArizona:
“Yhvh qanah re’shiyth” The Lord *possessed me in the beginning. Qanah *= possessed.

If the inspired writer meant create he would have used the hebrew word: ברא bara’

Gen 1:1 "In the beginning God created *ברא bara’ * the heaven and the earth. "

Dan:
Really? You know that for a fact? Have you been talking to the writer who has been long dead?

Here is why the NJB and the LXX translators use the word create. This is the entry in the Halot Hebrew Lexicon where they reference Proverbs 8:22.
**—3. to create (THAT 2:655ff); sbj. God: … **Pr 8:22 ** sc. wisdom, :: de Savignac VT 4 (1954) 430: to generate, produce; **

Here is Brown-Driver-Briggs Hebrew Lexicon on that verse:
**† 1. get, acquire (all poet.) : a. of God as originating, creating … Pr 8:22 **

The fact is that the word ***quanah ***never means to get **possession **of something that one already had in any context. That being said, the Hebrew lexicons disagree with you.

 

[Dan_Parker]

It is interesting how Our Lord himself rebukes the devil. Mat 17:18 "And Jesus rebuked the devil; "

Yet St. Michael, Jude 1:9, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, does not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, **The **Lord ****rebuke you.

Even the Son of God waits upon God for the proper time to defeat Satan. What Michael said was consistent with Psalm 110:1.

NJB Psalm 110:1 Of David Psalm **Yahweh **declared to my Lord, ‘Take your seat at my right hand, till I have made your enemies your footstool.’

However when that time came, Michael rebuked Satan, took him by the metaphorical collar, attacked him and cast him down to the earth. See him take this action:

NJB Revelation 12:7 And now war broke out in heaven, when **Michael with his angels attacked the dragon. **The dragon fought back with his angels, 8 but they were defeated and driven out of heaven. 9 The great dragon, the primeval serpent, known as the devil or Satan, who had led all the world astray, was hurled down to the earth and his angels were hurled down with him.

What did the Son of God do up until this time? He sat at the right hand of God waiting on his Father to make his enemies his footstool. Remember that Hebrews 1 teaches us that the Son BECAME (ie was made) better than the angels?

DRA Hebrews 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory and the figure of his substance and upholding all things by the word of his power, making purgation of sins, sitteth on the right hand of the majesty on high: 4 Being made so much better than the angels as he hath inherited a more excellent name than they.

 

[SimonArizona]

SimonArizona:
ouch wrong again bud. You do know it is written in Hebrew right?

יהוה
קנה
ראשית

Dan:
Of course, however we have been discussing the quote from Theophilus on John 1:1 which was written in Greek. These Greek Fathers quoted from the Greek Septuagint.

Also, perhaps you missed the fact that I quoted the Catholic New Jerusalem Bible. Perhaps you could petition to have the nihil obstat and imprimatur removed!

SimonArizona:
“Yhvh qanah re’shiyth” The Lord *possessed me in the beginning. Qanah *= possessed.

If the inspired writer meant create he would have used the hebrew word: ברא bara’

Gen 1:1 "In the beginning God created ברא bara’ the heaven and the earth. "

Dan:

 

[SimonArizona]

Even the Son of God waits upon God for the proper time to defeat Satan. What Michael said was consistent with Psalm 110:1.

NJB Psalm 110:1 Of David Psalm **Yahweh **declared to my Lord, ‘Take your seat at my right hand, till I have made your enemies your footstool.’

However when that time came, Michael rebuked Satan, took him by the metaphorical collar, attacked him and cast him down to the earth. See him take this action:

NJB Revelation 12:7 And now war broke out in heaven, when **Michael with his angels attacked the dragon. **The dragon fought back with his angels, 8 but they were defeated and driven out of heaven. 9 The great dragon, the primeval serpent, known as the devil or Satan, who had led all the world astray, was hurled down to the earth and his angels were hurled down with him.

Jesus humbled himself from the position he currently held in heaven and became man. As man, in his humbled state, he rebuked the devil. Yet Michael said “the Lord rebuke you” in the old test. Jesus humbled himself and took upon the power to rebuke Satan face to face? This in revelations is describing the fall of Satan and the angels in the beginning, “they were cast down to earth.”

 

[Dan_Parker]

Dan:

Here is Brown-Driver-Briggs Hebrew Lexicon on that verse:

† 1. get, acquire (all poet.) : a. of God as originating, creating ... **Pr 8:22 **

The fact is that the word quanah never means to get possession of something that one already had in any context. That being said, the Hebrew lexicons disagree with you.

SimonArizona:
Well, why don’t you paste the entire entry?

Dan:
I pasted the entry where both Halot and BDB give the gloss which they say applies to Proverbs 8:22. That is the appropriate way to quote a lexicon when one is applying it to a particular verse. The lexicon is not a smorgasbord for one to pick and choose what ever gloss one fancies, as you have done next!

SimonArizona:

1. to get, acquire, create, buy, possess

a) (Qal)

1. to get, acquire, obtain

a) of God originating, creating, redeeming His people

1. possessor

b) of Eve acquiring

c) of acquiring knowledge, wisdom

1. to buy

b) (Niphal) to be bought

c) (Hiphil) to cause to possess

Dan:
Why did you omit the part where BDB says that in Proverbs 8:22 the word means create?

SimonArizona:
Yes it can mean create but it can also mean to possess or* get*. Can you agree to that? The C.C. teaches that the Father begets the Son. You are not being honest, are you? You posted entry 1) only. Be honest with yourself.

Dan:
I admit the word has more than one sense. When it means possess it never means something that one has always had, but something that one has obtained in some manner. That being said, it is irrelevant that BDB lists all the other senses when they say in Proverbs 8:22 it means create.

Be honest with yourself

 

[SimonArizona]

"22 'Yahweh created me, first-fruits of his fashioning, before the oldest of his works. "-NJB

You do know that the C.C. teaches that the Son owes his existence to the Father. But there was never a time that the Son did not exist. As the Father is everlasting so is the Son.

Lets look at the very next verse…

“23 From everlasting I was firmly set, from the beginning, before the earth came into being.”

I don’t think everlasting means at one time did not exist.

o·läm’ =

1. long duration, antiquity, futurity, for ever, ever, everlasting, evermore, perpetual, old, ancient, world

a) ancient time, long time (of past)

b) (of future)

1. for ever, always
2. continuous existence, perpetual
3. everlasting, indefinite or unending future, eternity

 

[Dan_Parker]

It is interesting how Our Lord himself rebukes the devil. Mat 17:18 "And Jesus rebuked the devil; "

Yet St. Michael, Jude 1:9, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, does not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke you.

The Greek there is TO DAIMONION which is rendered in the NAB as “the demon.” That does not mean it is the leader of the Demons, Satan the Devil.

NAB Matthew 17:18 Jesus rebuked him and the demon came out of him, and from that hour the boy was cured.

The word in Jude is DIABOLOS of which BDAG says: “**in our lit. as title of the principal transcendent evil being the adversary/devil”

The other word is a generic term for an evil spirit, a demon, but not the principal being, Satan the Devil.

So you are comparing apples and oranges.

 

[SimonArizona]

Dan:
I pasted the entry where both Halot and BDB give the gloss which they say applies to Proverbs 8:22. That is the appropriate way to quote a lexicon when one is applying it to a particular verse. The lexicon is not a smorgasbord for one to pick and choose what ever gloss one fancies, as you have done next!

Uou believe that the Scriptures are inspired by God. Why isn’t the word that means “create out of nothing” like Gen 1:1 used here? Because it can mean get or possess. The lexicons do not say qanah cannot mean something someone has always possessed. That is your addition.

SimonArizona:

1. to get, acquire, create, buy, possess

a) (Qal)

1. to get, acquire, obtain

a) of God originating, creating, redeeming His people

1. possessor

b) of Eve acquiring

c) of acquiring knowledge, wisdom

1. to buy

b) (Niphal) to be bought

c) (Hiphil) to cause to possess

Dan:
Why did you omit the part where BDB says that in Proverbs 8:22 the word means create?

i didn’t omit it, its number one above.

SimonArizona:
Yes it can mean create but it can also mean to possess or* get*. Can you agree to that? The C.C. teaches that the Father begets the Son. You are not being honest, are you? You posted entry 1) only.

Dan:
I admit the word has more than one sense. That being said, it is irrelevant that BDB lists all the other senses when they say in Proverbs 8:22 it means create. No, it is not irrelevant that other senses of the word are listed there.

Dan the quote button is 4 buttons to the right of the globe.