John 1:1

[Dan_Parker]

"22 'Yahweh created me, first-fruits of his fashioning, before the oldest of his works. "-NJB

You do know that the C.C. teaches that the Son owes his existence to the Father. But there was never a time that the Son did not exist. As the Father is everlasting so is the Son.

Lets look at the very next verse…

“23 From everlasting I was firmly set, from the beginning, before the earth came into being.”

I don’t think everlasting means at one time did not exist.

o·läm’ =

1. long duration, antiquity, futurity, for ever, ever, everlasting, evermore, perpetual, old, ancient, world

a) ancient time, long time (of past)

b) (of future)

1. for ever, always
2. continuous existence, perpetual
3. everlasting, indefinite or unending future, eternity

Here are two Catholic bibles to compare:

NAB Proverbs 8:22 "The LORD begot me, the first-born of his ways, the forerunner of his prodigies of long ago; 23 From of old I was poured forth, at the first, before the earth. 24 When there were no depths I was brought forth, when there were no fountains or springs of water; 25 Before the mountains were settled into place, before the hills, I was brought forth;

NJB Proverbs 8:22 'Yahweh created me, first-fruits of his fashioning, before the oldest of his works. 23 From everlasting, I was firmly set, from the beginning, before the earth came into being. 24 The deep was not, when I was born, nor were the springs with their abounding waters. 25 Before the mountains were settled, before the hills, I came to birth;

“From everlasting” is rendered in the NAB as “from of old”. As for whether the term everlasting means never having a beginning, please consider:

NAB Genesis 49:26 the blessings of fresh grain and blossoms, The blessings of the everlasting mountains, the delights of the eternal hills. May they rest on the head of Joseph, on the brow of the prince among his brothers.

Also compare:
NAB Habakkuk 3:6 He pauses to survey the earth; his look makes the nations tremble. The eternal mountains are shattered, the age-old hills bow low along his ancient ways.

Certainly the everlasting mountains and eternal mountains had a beginning!

As for your word born or begot:

NAB Psalm 90:2 Before the mountains were born, the earth and the world brought forth, from eternity to eternity you are God.

NJB Psalm 90:2 Before the mountains were born, before the earth and the world came to birth, from eternity to eternity you are God.

So much for the arbitrary distinction between begotten and made.

 

[SimonArizona]

Here are two Catholic bibles to compare:

NAB Proverbs 8:22 "The LORD begot me, the first-born of his ways, the forerunner of his prodigies of long ago; 23 From of old I was poured forth, at the first, before the earth. 24 When there were no depths I was brought forth, when there were no fountains or springs of water; 25 Before the mountains were settled into place, before the hills, I was brought forth;

NJB Proverbs 8:22 'Yahweh created me, first-fruits of his fashioning, before the oldest of his works. 23 From everlasting, I was firmly set, from the beginning, before the earth came into being. 24 The deep was not, when I was born, nor were the springs with their abounding waters. 25 Before the mountains were settled, before the hills, I came to birth;

“From everlasting” is rendered in the NAB as “from of old”. As for whether the term everlasting means never having a beginning, please consider:

NAB Genesis 49:26 the blessings of fresh grain and blossoms, The blessings of the everlasting mountains, the delights of the eternal hills. May they rest on the head of Joseph, on the brow of the prince among his brothers.

Also compare:
NAB Habakkuk 3:6 He pauses to survey the earth; his look makes the nations tremble. The eternal mountains are shattered, the age-old hills bow low along his ancient ways.

Certainly the everlasting mountains and eternal mountains had a beginning!

As for your word born or begot:

NAB Psalm 90:2 Before the mountains were born, the earth and the world brought forth, from eternity to eternity you are God.

NJB Psalm 90:2 Before the mountains were born, before the earth and the world came to birth, from eternity to eternity you are God.

So much for the arbitrary distinction between begotten and made.

Gen 21:33 Abraham planted a tamarisk tree in Beersheba and called there on the name of the Lord , the Everlasting God. ok, so all we have accomplished is to show that Everlasting can mean created or eternal. Because the same word is used for The “everlasting” God

 

[SimonArizona]

So along side with your interpretation of Proverbs 8:22-23, You can agree that *it can mean *YWH possessed me eternally

 

[Dan_Parker]

Gen 21:33 Abraham planted a tamarisk tree in Beersheba and called there on the name of the Lord , the Everlasting God. ok, so all we have accomplished is to show that Everlasting can mean created or eternal. Because the same word is used for The “everlasting” God

It is your argument that the term in Proverbs 8:22 means never having a beginning. However even your own Catholic bible does not agree with you. The NAB renders it “From of old”.

This is your argument, not mine. You bear the burden of proof.

 

[Dan_Parker]

So along side with your interpretation of Proverbs 8:22-23, You can agree that *it can mean *YWH possessed me eternally

No, the Hebrew lexicons say it means created. So does the NJB and the LXX. Quanah never means someone one has always possessed. It means to come into posession of something in some way related to the context, begetting, creating or buying, etc.

It cannot mean to have always possessed something eternally. That is contrary to the sense of that word.

 

[SimonArizona]

No, the Hebrew lexicons say it means created. So does the NJB and the LXX. Quanah never means someone one has always possessed. It means to come into posession of something in some way related to the context, begetting, creating or buying, etc.

It cannot mean to have always possessed something eternally. That is contrary to the sense of that word.

The word can mean to possess. Whether what is being possessed is eternally possessed or not the word itself does not say. Infact, the very next verse says “from everlasting” which we have demonstrated can mean eternal since it is applied to God. So what God possessed here can mean eternally. How can you say it cannot mean it? You cannot say “my lexicon says so” because my lexicon says differently, in fact it says that the root word is not used to create out of nothing, but that is reserved for another which I have shown to you.

 

[SimonArizona]

It is your argument that the term in Proverbs 8:22 means never having a beginning. However even your own Catholic bible does not agree with you. The NAB renders it “From of old”.

This is your argument, not mine. You bear the burden of proof.

From of old does not strictly signify created, it is a proper rendering for *o·läm’ *, however o·läm’ is also the same word used to describe God, and he was not created.

 

[Dan_Parker]

From of old does not strictly signify created, it is a proper rendering for *o·läm’ *, however o·läm’ is also the same word used to describe God, and he was not created.

Your argument that the Son was not created from Proverbs 8:22 were these:

1. Quanah does not mean created.
2. Olam prevents the interpretation of created.
3. Beget cannot be used of something that is created.

We have seen that (1) the Hebrew lexicons say it means created in Proverbs 8:22, that (2) there are olam mountains that were created and that (3) these olam mountains were said to have been begotten.

Your arguments have all been refuted.

 

[Dan_Parker]

The word can mean to possess. Whether what is being possessed is eternally possessed or not the word itself does not say. Infact, the very next verse says “from everlasting” which we have demonstrated can mean eternal since it is applied to God. So what God possessed here can mean eternally. How can you say it cannot mean it? You cannot say “my lexicon says so” because my lexicon says differently, in fact it says that the root word is not used to create out of nothing, but that is reserved for another which I have shown to you.

You are making the argument, not I and you have the burden of proof. I quoted Proverbs 8:22 because someone said that the Son never said he was created, but according to Catholic bibles, the Greek Septuagint and Hebrew lexicons that is exactly what he said.

 

[Dan_Parker]

From of old does not strictly signify created, it is a proper rendering for *o·läm’ *, however o·läm’ is also the same word used to describe God, and he was not created.

One must take all the verses about God and harmonize them. Sometimes a word is used in a particular context to stress a point. However Psalm 90:2 does express the word in a way that makes it clear that God’s eternity reaches in both directions:

NAB Psalm 90:2 Before the mountains were born, the earth and the world brought forth, **from eternity **to eternity you are God.

 

[SimonArizona]

Your argument that the Son was not created from Proverbs 8:22 were these:

1. -]Quanah does not mean created./-]
2. Qanah can mean to possess or beget.
3. -]Olam prevents the interpretation of created./-]
4. O lam can mean eternal, without beginning
5. -]Beget cannot be used of something that is created./-]
6. Beget can be used of something eternally begotten.

“does not, prevents, cannot.” are not my position. My position is it can mean God has eternally begotten the subject of these verses.

We have seen that (1) the Hebrew lexicons say it -]means created/-] Can mean created or possessed. but where the Holy Spirit inspired the Scriptures to mean “God created out of nothing” qanah is not used. in Proverbs 8:22, that (2) there are olam mountains that were created and that (3) these olam mountains were said to have been begotten. God is also said to be o lam, you do know hebrew words can have multiple meanings.

Your arguments -]have all been refuted/-]. Stand

You misunderstood my position, but there it is for you. also, im not arguing.

I’m not trying to knock down your position that “God created the subject here long time ago” although that is true, according to the Catholic position, “created” and “long time ago” mean eternally begotten, which to my delight, I see that the Scriptures do allow for that meaning.

 

[Dan_Parker]

You misunderstood my position, but there it is for you. also, im not arguing.

I’m not trying to knock down your position that “God created the subject here long time ago” although that is true, according to the Catholic position, “created” and “long time ago” mean eternally begotten, which to my delight, I see that the Scriptures do allow for that meaning.

Please don’t misinterpret my use of “argument” to mean something disagreeable. I use the word “argument” as a term which means a particular point of view being presented.

It is true that Quanah can mean to come into possession of something by a variety of means such as creating, begetting, purchasing, etc. This is clear from the use of of the word. However the same is not true of the word ‘create’ in English or the word KTIZW in Greek.

t becomes circular reasoning… ie the word means this in Proverbs 8:22 (and only in this verse) because the word means this in Proverbs 8:22… What prevents one from saying that the mountains were eternally begotten as well?

Finally, you are changing the noun eternal and converting it to an adverb “eternally” with which you modify the verb quanah.

Do you interpret this passage to mean that the begetting happens eternally and therefore is still happening?

 

[Tomster]

Please don’t misinterpret my use of “argument” to mean something disagreeable. I use the word “argument” as a term which means a particular point of view being presented.

It is true that Quanah can mean to come into possession of something by a variety of means such as creating, begetting, purchasing, etc. This is clear from the use of of the word. However the same is not true of the word ‘create’ in English or the word KTIZW in Greek.

t becomes circular reasoning… ie the word means this in Proverbs 8:22 (and only in this verse) because the word means this in Proverbs 8:22… What prevents one from saying that the mountains were eternally begotten as well?

Finally, you are changing the noun eternal and converting it to an adverb “eternally” with which you modify the verb quanah.

Do you interpret this passage to mean that the begetting happens eternally and therefore is still happening?

Dan,

You should have paid more attention to the references I gave to you quite some time ago regarding the doctrine of the Mystical Body of Christ. If you had, you would not be asking these questions.

 

[SimonArizona]

It is true that Quanah can mean to come into possession of something by a variety of means such as creating, begetting, purchasing, etc. This is clear from the use of of the word. However the same is not true of the word ‘create’ in English or the word KTIZW in Greek.

Yes, we understand create in english to mean to cause to come into being. To cause something to come into being eternally is an act that God is capable of, after all He is his own eternal cause.

God produces, holds, the Son in existence forever because the Son is the idea God has of himself. Logos:idea. The Idea of God is none other than God himself. Your idea of yourself is a man because you are a man. The idea of God is God, a horse a horse etc. You and I have an imperfect idea of ourselves, but God knows all of his eternal self perfectly, and holds that knowledge of himself forever in his mind. Since he is a person, perfect, eternal, God, able to know and love, so His idea of himself is a person, perfect, eternal, God, able to know and love. But the idea is not the thinker, it is held by the thinker, they are two. “He who has seen me has seen the Father…All that the Father has the Son has…All that the Son has is from the Father.”

Dictionary.com lists definitions for the english word create in numbers 5 and 6 “to be the cause of” and “to cause to happen,” also scrolling down “to cause to exist.” and “to produce.” All four of those definitions of the english word create are acceptable for the relationship between the Son and the Father.

The Greek word ‘ktizo’ can also mean ‘found, ordain, or establish.’" (Liddell and Scott, Intermediate Greek-English Lexicon.)

it becomes circular reasoning… ie the word means this in Proverbs 8:22 (and only in this verse) because the word means this in Proverbs 8:22… What prevents one from saying that the mountains were eternally begotten as well?

The correct understanding of Scripture. The question is where is that found? here or there?

Finally, you are changing the noun eternal and converting it to an adverb “eternally” with which you modify the verb quanah.

no, I am continuing to verse 23… “I was set up from o’lam.” Which can mean 1) for ever, always
2) continuous existence, perpetual
3) everlasting, eternity

as it is used to describe God himself. In other passages.

Do you interpret this passage to mean that the begetting happens eternally and therefore is still happening?

Not just this passage, but the teaching of the Church is that Christ* is* eternally begotten of the Father.

 

[Dan_Parker]

Dan,

You should have paid more attention to the references I gave to you quite some time ago regarding the doctrine of the Mystical Body of Christ. If you had, you would not be asking these questions.

I don’t view the catechism as proof of anything else than what Catholics currently teach.

 

[Dan_Parker]

Yes, we understand create in english to mean to cause to come into being. To cause something to come into being eternally is an act that God is capable of.

Dictionary.com lists definitions for the english word create in numbers 5 and 6 “to be the cause of” and “to cause to happen,” also scrolling down “to cause to exist.” and “to produce.” All four of those definitions of the english word create are acceptable for the relationship between the Son and the Father.

The Greek word ‘ktizo’ can also mean ‘found, ordain, or establish.’" (Liddell and Scott, Intermediate Greek-English Lexicon.)

The correct understanding of Scripture. The question is where is that found? here or there?

no, I am continuing to verse 23… “I was set up from o’lam.” Which can mean 1) for ever, always
2) continuous existence, perpetual
3) everlasting, eternity

as it is used to describe God himself. In other passages.

Not just this passage, but the teaching of the Church is that Christ* is* eternally begotten of the Father.

Neither verse 22 or 23 of Proverbs 8 have the adverb “eternally”. Olam is a noun in both instances. When you speak of an eternal begetting eternal is modifying the action of the verb beget. A search of eternally begotten on the net provides definitions to the effect that the Son is always proceeding from the Father or is eternally generated.

Even the NAB does not provide the sense of something happening eternally as opposed to something happening from eternity.

NAB Proverbs 8:22 "The LORD begot me, the first-born of his ways, the forerunner of his prodigies of long ago; 23 **From **of old I was poured forth, at the first, before the earth.

 

[Danno2281]

Neither verse 22 or 23 of Proverbs 8 have the adverb “eternally”. Olam is a noun in both instances. When you speak of an eternal begetting eternal is modifying the action of the verb beget. A search of eternally begotten on the net provides definitions to the effect that the Son is always proceeding from the Father or is eternally generated.

Even the NAB does not provide the sense of something happening eternally as opposed to something happening from eternity.

NAB Proverbs 8:22 "The LORD begot me, the first-born of his ways, the forerunner of his prodigies of long ago; 23 **From **of old I was poured forth, at the first, before the earth.

I have little knowledge of the Hebrew, and long before I came on line donated my Rahlf's Septuagint along with Liddell & Scott to a Catholic library assumnjg that at my age I should no longer have use for them, so I am at something of a disadvantage in this discussion. But I know enough about English to make a very pertinent observation on this point: a noun used as the object of a preposition can certainly take on the aspect of an adverb. "I assure you of this with cetainty" is equivalent to saying that I assure you certainly. If "from eternity" does not equal "eternally", what does it mean? You have neglected still to give us your definition of time, and I, and perhaps others, should like to know just what you mean by eternal, eternity, timeless, etc.

 

[Dan_Parker]

I have little knowledge of the Hebrew, and long before I came on line donated my Rahlf’s Septuagint along with Liddell & Scott to a Catholic library assumnjg that at my age I should no longer have use for them, so I am at something of a disadvantage in this discussion. But I know enough about English to make a very pertinent observation on this point: a noun used as the object of a preposition can certainly take on the aspect of an adverb. “I assure you of this with cetainty” is equivalent to saying that I assure you certainly. If “from eternity” does not equal “eternally”, what does it mean? You have neglected still to give us your definition of time, and I, and perhaps others, should like to know just what you mean by eternal, eternity, timeless, etc.

I don’t claim that olam could not conceivably be used as a adverb. I make the claim that in Proverbs 8:22-23 it is not being used as an adverb. I brought this up because you claim this passage supports eternal generation. In your re-arrangement of the words of Proverbs 8 you take an adjective and make it an adverb. That is not what was written.

NJB Proverbs 8:22 'Yahweh created me, first-fruits of his fashioning, before the oldest of his works. 23 From everlasting, I was firmly set, from the beginning, before the earth came into being.

Note the verse again above. Do you deny that the word “before” is temporal? If you are correct and temporal expressions don’t fit what preceded the first created things, then this phrase at most says that Wisdom existed before those things. On the same token, since Wisdom in the same sentence claims to be the first-fruits of these things, there is no reasonable way to argue that Wisdom is not part of those things and outside of time in a philosophical sense.

Next “**from **the beginning.” In this same passage Wisdom is said to be “before” something. So we know the immediate context Wisdom is being Created within two temporal boundaries, from the beginning and before the works of which he is the first part.

You argue for a philosophical sense of eternity that if foreign to the Hebrew scriptures and this context. Halot Hebrew lexicon gives this gloss:** —1. long time, duration (usually eternal, eternity, but not in a philosophical sense) **

Your example of “with certainty” does not fit Proverbs 8:23 because the word “with” when used with “certainty” coveys the MEANS by which something is done. However in Proverbs 8:23 the preposition is “from” which gives a lower boundary to the time when something is done. I know you object to temporal references here, but the inspired writer chose to use these words. They don’t convey the thought of something happening outside of time or something that has always been happening.

You ask my view of time I don’t speculate unnecessarily. Time could be an abstraction to provide a way of ordering events. The past could be history, the present fact and the future a probability. Who knows? I don’t need to speculate to arrive at the normative meaning of the Hebrew, Greek or English words in Proverbs 8:22-23.

 

[Danno2281]

I don’t claim that olam could not conceivably be used as a adverb. I make the claim that in Proverbs 8:22-23 it is not being used as an adverb. I brought this up because you claim this passage supports eternal generation. In your re-arrangement of the words of Proverbs 8 you take an adjective and make it an adverb. That is not what was written.

NJB Proverbs 8:22 'Yahweh created me, first-fruits of his fashioning, **before **the oldest of his works. 23 From everlasting, I was firmly set, **from **the beginning, before the earth came into being.

Note the verse again above. Do you deny that the word “before” is temporal? If you are correct and temporal expressions don’t fit what preceded the first created things, then this phrase at most says that Wisdom existed before those things. On the same token, since Wisdom in the same sentence claims to be the first-fruits of these things, there is no reasonable way to argue that Wisdom is not part of those things and outside of time in a philosophical sense.

Next “**from **the beginning.” In this same passage Wisdom is said to be “before” something. So we know the immediate context Wisdom is being Created within two temporal boundaries, from the beginning and before the works of which he is the first part…

You argue for a philosophical sense of eternity that if foreign to the Hebrew scriptures and this context. Halot Hebrew lexicon gives this gloss:** —1. long time, duration (usually eternal, eternity, but not in a philosophical sense**)

Your example of “with certainty” does not fit Proverbs 8:23 because the word “with” when used with “certainty” coveys the MEANS by which something is done. However in Proverbs 8:23 the preposition is “from” which gives a lower boundary to the time when something is done. I know you object to temporal references here, but the inspired writer chose to use these words. They don’t convey the thought of something happening outside of time or something that has always been happening.

You ask my view of time I don’t speculate unnecessarily. Time could be an abstraction to provide a way of ordering events. The past could be history, the present fact and the future a probability. Who knows? I don’t need to speculate to arrive at the normative meaning of the Hebrew, Greek or English words in Proverbs 8:22-23.

I suppose that your lack of speculation about temporal matters make you unwilling to consider the phrase “from everlasting I was firmly set”, but I just wonder what, in your opiniion, came before “from evetrlasting” since according to you, it can’t be something happening outside of time. Before is temporal indeed, but what is “before” need not be. Before there was creation, God exists, “from everlasting to everlasting, before the mountains wer brought forth, You are”(Ps.90:2), but that does not subject Him to time. Note that the same phrasing is used of Wisdom, and the same is meant.

 

[twb1621]

Just for the record, the NAB and NJB, fine as they may be or not be, are not definitive for Catholics. The Vulgate is the definitive text, defined by the Council of Trent as such. You have consistently failed to address 1Cor.10,4. What are your thoughts on it, and how do you defend His “absence from the world” in the light of Paul’s assertion?

you are a real good one to acuse anyone of failing to address anything in this thread. Let me chuckle a while.