John 1:1

[Dan_Parker]

I suppose that your lack of speculation about temporal matters make you unwilling to consider the phrase “from everlasting I was firmly set”, but I just wonder what, in your opiniion, came before “from evetrlasting” since according to you, it can’t be something happening outside of time. Before is temporal indeed, but what is “before” need not be. Before there was creation, God exists, “from everlasting to everlasting, before the mountains wer brought forth, You are”(Ps.90:2), but that does not subject Him to time. Note that the same phrasing is used of Wisdom, and the same is meant.

The better question would be to ask about what came before the the Hebrew phrase Me Olam. The rendering “from everlasting” is a biased rendering which I don’t find in the Hebrew lexicons. Remember Halot specifically said it was not eternal in a philosophic sense?

If you take ***olam ***here as eternal in the sense of something that has always been and always will be, then what you have is a contradiction in terms when this word follows the temporal preposition “from.”

You ask what came before “from everlasting”? We need to ask this question in the context of Proverbs 8, not in a general sense. Every thing made or moved needs a mover or maker, correct? What came before Wisdom was the one who created him, Yahweh.

That is what the text says explicitly, that Yahweh created him. Therefore Yahweh preceded those events. Yahweh came before Wisdom for he is said to have either created/begotten him. Even the eternal mountains were “born”. (DR made, NAB born).

 

[twb1621]

Do modern Catholic say **“at first God was alone, and the Word in Him”? **

Can you trace your “Bible” interpretations back through the history of the Scriptures? I have a post I presented you that shows you can’t without changing the meanings to fit your 1932 and beyond belief system.

 

[twb1621]

I don’t view the catechism as proof of anything else than what Catholics currently teach.

The CCC has lineage and true interpretation to scripture. How long has Russell’s interpretations been in use by the JW now?

 

[SimonArizona]

NJB Proverbs 8:22 'Yahweh created me, first-fruits of his fashioning, before

 

[Tomster]

The CCC has lineage and true interpretation to scripture. How long has Russell’s interpretations been in use by the JW now?

Good point twbster. We both know that the JW’s have disregarded many of Mr. Russell’s teachings. Their teachings are subject to change and that is something Dan has failed to address.

I do not recall mentioning anything about the Catechism to Dan though.

 

[twb1621]

Good point twbster. We both know that the JW’s have disregarded many of Mr. Russell’s teachings. Their teachings are subject to change and that is something Dan has failed to address.

I do not recall mentioning anything about the Catechism to Dan though.

Hey Tomster… He commented in post 462…

 

[SimonArizona]

Good point twbster. We both know that the JW’s have disregarded many of Mr. Russell’s teachings. Their teachings are subject to change and that is something Dan has failed to address.

I do not recall mentioning anything about the Catechism to Dan though.

We are not attacking the Watchtower here, this is not the subject of discussion in this thread.

 

[SimonArizona]

The rendering “from everlasting” is a biased rendering which I don’t find in the Hebrew lexicons.

If you take ***olam ***here as eternal in the sense of something that has always been and always will be, then what you have is a contradiction in terms when this word follows the temporal preposition “from.”

The scholars who translated olam into the english “from everlasting” mean eternally, how do I know? because they are trinitarians. It is the exact same meaning as “from eternity,”

Every thing made or moved needs a mover or maker, correct? What came before Wisdom was the one who created him, Yahweh.

This is correct, however the verse does not say “before wisdom,” it says “before His works.” Which is in harmony with the rest of Scripture, and, I point out, Catholic teaching. “Not one thing was made that He didn’t make.” All things are made by him and for him."

Yahweh came before Wisdom for he is said to have either created/begotten him.

Not so, Yhwh is able to beget something eternally. He doesn’t have to wait for a certain amount of eternity to roll by before He is able to beget. We must resist the tendency to put man’s limitations on the eternal God.

 

[Dan_Parker]

SimonArizona:

NJB Proverbs 8:22 'Yahweh created me, first-fruits of his fashioning, before the oldest of his works. 23 From everlasting, I was firmly set, from the beginning, before the earth came into being.

Before קדם qedem “ancient time, aforetime, ancient, from of old, earliest time” -Strong’s Lexicon.

Deu 33:27 The קדם qedem God is your refuge.

NWT “33: 27 A hiding place is the God of qedem ancient time”

Dan:
Do you deny that the word “before” is temporal?

SimonArizona:
Yes, I do deny that it strictly means temporal, because it is used of God. Even in the NWT deut 33:27, the word translated in prvrebs 8:22 as before qedem is a suitable word to describe God Himself. This shows that this word may and can imply a non-temporal meaning.

Dan:
The NWT does not apply the word “before” to God.

NWT Deuteronomy 33:27 A hiding place is the God of ancient time, And underneath are the indefinitely lasting arms. And he will drive away from before you the enemy, And he will say, ‘Annihilate [them]]!’

That being said, I never made a contrast of God being outside of time and Wisdom being in time. That is your argument, not mine. I said time might very well be an abstraction. BTW Strongs is merely a dictionary of how the KJV rendered various Hebrew and Greek words. It is not a real lexicon. If you are getting the word “before” from that source it is useless for exegeting the text. Even with Strongs I don’t understand how the word before applies to God. Be that as it may, I don’t agree that time carries your philosophical sense.

**
Dan:**
since Wisdom in the same sentence claims to be the first-fruits of these things, there is no reasonable way to argue that Wisdom is not part of those things

SimonArizona:
We claim that Jesus is the first-fruits of God. It is interesting how the same words applied to God himself are applied to his Wisdom.

Dan:
NJB Proverbs 8:22 'Yahweh created me, first-fruits of his fashioning, before the oldest of his works. 23 From everlasting, I was firmly set, from the beginning, before the earth came into being.

If you claim Jesus is the first-fruits of God then you are not getting this from the text we are discussing. It says Wisdom is the first-fruits of his fashioning (ie his works, the things that were created).

A final point on Deut 33:27. I don’t disagree that olam is used to describe God. However God is not described as having been created from olam. Proverbs 8:22-23 makes it clear that these verses deal with a beginning to the existence of Wisdom.

 

[Danno2281]

The better question would be to ask about what came before the the Hebrew phrase Me Olam. The rendering “from everlasting” is a biased rendering which I don’t find in the Hebrew lexicons. Remember Halot specifically said it was not eternal in a philosophic sense?

If you take ***olam ***here as eternal in the sense of something that has always been and always will be, then what you have is a contradiction in terms when this word follows the temporal preposition “from.”

You ask what came before “from everlasting”? We need to ask this question in the context of Proverbs 8, not in a general sense. Every thing made or moved needs a mover or maker, correct? What came before Wisdom was the one who created him, Yahweh.

That is what the text says explicitly, that Yahweh created him. Therefore Yahweh preceded those events. Yahweh came before Wisdom for he is said to have either created/begotten him. Even the eternal mountains were “born”. (DR made, NAB born).

No, what we have is a human attempt to express what is ineffable, just as when David says,:“Incline Your ear to me.” He certainly does not mean that God has an ear, but speaks of the ineffable in human terms. You assume that Wisdom is acted upon by some agent, and that that action is an event in time rather than “from everlasting,” an assumption unwarranted by the scripture.
Who knows (or cares) what Halot means by a "philosophical"sense? The hagiographer intended what his words say, that before anything we can relate to, this was the case, (certainly a philosophicaLposition that addresses the origin of what we call time)
Since the expression “from everlasting” occurs in more than just Proverbs, it is certainly useful to see what this means in other contexts in order to help us see what it means in this context. Now what do you think it means in Psalm 90?

 

[SimonArizona]

The NWT does not apply the word “before” to God.

NWT Deuteronomy 33:27 A hiding place is the God of ancient time,
​

I don’t think you are intentionally dodging from seeing eye to eye with me, I think maybe we are speaking two different languages.

My point:
The heb. word קדם qedem is used to describe the eternal God. I brought up the NWT just to show that it is applied to God. The same word is then also used to describe how long God has possessed his Wisdom. “qedem his works.”

My point is qedem in itself does not imply existing only for a period of time. And that it is allowable to interpret these verses as “God has possessed His Wisdom eternally.”

It says Wisdom is the first-fruits of his fashioning (ie his works, the things that were created).

We agree that Wisdom proceeds from God before the oldest of His works.

A final point on Deut 33:27. I don’t disagree that olam is used to describe God. However God is not described as having been created from olam. Proverbs 8:22-23 makes it clear that these verses deal with a beginning to the existence of Wisdom.

“I was brought forth from olam.” It is not clear from these verses that Wisdom has a beginning, as at one time did not exist at all.

I am primarily using Gesenius’s Lexicon, the Masoretic text, and the Septuagint, as you can see these sources have served me well.​

 

[SimonArizona]

Before just means before. It does not carry with it a limitation that I think you are trying to apply to it.

in english it is proper to say “God existed before his works.” This does not carry any implications with it.

 

[Dan_Parker]

SimonArizona:
I don’t think you are intentionally dodging from seeing eye to eye with me, I think maybe we are speaking two different languages.

Dan:
No, I really am interested in your position.

SimonArizona:
My point:
The heb. word קדם qedem is used to describe the eternal God. I brought up the NWT just to show that it is applied to God. The same word is then also used to describe how long God has possessed his Wisdom. “qedem his works.”

Dan:
I don’t disagree that the word is used in various contexts. My position is that it must be looked at in the context of Proverbs 8. As I have brought out before, the word “possess” as in “own” is never used of something that one has always had. The sense includes the acquiring of something by creating, begetting or purchasing, etc.

NJB Proverbs 8:22 'Yahweh created me, first-fruits of his fashioning, before the oldest of his works. 23 From everlasting, I was firmly set,** from the beginning**, before the earth came into being.

Note that from olam is parallel to from the beginning. The beginning is the start of the ancient times, of old. There is no way that this language can be construed as that this Wisdom is something that God had always had from everlasting times extending forever in the past. Add to this that Wisdom is considered a part of what God fashioned, the first part and it makes it impossible that this language teaches an eternal generation of the Son.

SimonArizona:
My point is qedem in itself does not imply existing only for a period of time. And that it is allowable to interpret these verses as “God has possessed His Wisdom eternally.”

Dan:
The word could be used to describe this, if the inspired writer chose to do so. The word was used by bible writers to show that God existed both into the past forever and will exist into the future forever. That is what Me Olam Ad Olam means in its intensified form in Psalm 90:2 - NAB Psalm 90:2 Before the mountains were born, the earth and the world brought forth, from eternity to eternity you are God.

If olam was used of Wisdom in this way, the discussion would be over. You would be correct. But it is not and you are not. Olam in Proverbs 8 is a description of the beginning of someone a very long time ago and also with the explicit verbiage that shows that this person did not exist prior to their creation. Wisdom is defined as being created from a period of time and before another period of time.

SimonArizona:
We agree that Wisdom proceeds from God before the oldest of His works.

Dan:
The New Revised Standard Version faithfully reflects the Hebrew and shows that Wisdom was the beginning of God’s word and thus a part of it as well as being the first of the acts of God.

NRS Proverbs 8:22 The LORD created me at the beginning of his work, the first of his acts of long ago. 23 Ages ago I was set up, at the first, before the beginning of the earth.

SimonArizona:
“I was brought forth from olam.” It is not clear from these verses that Wisdom has a beginning, as at one time did not exist at all.

Dan:
Yes it is clear. The Hebrew is reshit darko (beginning of his way) and it describes Wisdom. The beginning of something in the context is a part of something, the first part.

Some bible versions interpret the beginning of his way as the time when things were created. This interpretation still puts the acquisition of Wisdom by creating or begetting as being included with the other things God created.

Neither approach can be construed as teaching that Wisdom existed eternally and always in God before God created anything or that he was eternally generated.

 

[Dan_Parker]

No, what we have is a human attempt to express what is ineffable, just as when David says,:“Incline Your ear to me.” He certainly does not mean that God has an ear, but speaks of the ineffable in human terms. You assume that Wisdom is acted upon by some agent, and that that action is an event in time rather than “from everlasting,” an assumption unwarranted by the scripture.
Who knows (or cares) what Halot means by a "philosophical"sense? The hagiographer intended what his words say, that before anything we can relate to, this was the case, (certainly a philosophicaLposition that addresses the origin of what we call time)
Since the expression “from everlasting” occurs in more than just Proverbs, it is certainly useful to see what this means in other contexts in order to help us see what it means in this context. Now what do you think it means in Psalm 90?

At best what you have is to force the temporal language to be metaphorical in some sense in order to make the text read in a way that is consistent with your theology. That is why some Fathers decided to make this a description of the incarnation, but that has its own set of problems.

Do you agree that if we take the text as it is written, temporal language and all, that it support my view? You must, for you argue against the normative sense for these words.

 

[SimonArizona]

My position is that it must be looked at in the context of Proverbs 8. As I have brought out before, the word “possess” as in “own” is never used of something that one has always had.

No one but God can ever eternally possess something, or ever eternally create something. If you say it has never been used that way before, you may be correct, but that is not the same as saying itcannotbe used that way. The word can mean to possess. How long a thing is possessed the word itself does not say, just like in english. But the next verse, which describes the length of possession, can say, “I was brought forth eternally.”

The sense includes the acquiring of something by creating, begetting or purchasing, etc.

Note that from olam is parallel to from the beginning. The beginning is the start of the ancient times, of old. There is no way that this language can be construed as that this Wisdom is something that God had always had from everlasting times extending forever in the past.

Yes it can, i’ll show you why; because that language is also used of God. it is tranlslated NAB 22
5 "The LORD begot me, the first-born of his ways, the forerunner of his prodigies of long ago;
23
6 From of old** (is also used of God)** I was poured forth, at the first, before the earth.

Add to this that Wisdom is considered a part of what God fashioned, the first part and it makes it impossible that this language teaches an eternal generation of the Son.

It is not impossible for God to eternally fashion something. Is it?

SimonArizona:
My point is qedem in itself does not imply existing only for a period of time. And that it is allowable to interpret these verses as “God has possessed His Wisdom eternally.”

Dan:
The word could be used to describe this, if the inspired writer chose to do so. The word was used by bible writers to show that God existed both into the past forever and will exist into the future forever. That is what Me Olam Ad Olam means in its intensified form in Psalm 90:2 - NAB Psalm 90:2 Before the mountains were born, the earth and the world brought forth, from eternity to eternity you are God.

If olam was used of Wisdom in this way, the discussion would be over. You would be correct. But it is not and you are not. Olam in Proverbs 8 is a description of the beginning of someone a very long time ago and also with the explicit verbiage that shows that this person did not exist prior to their creation. Wisdom is defined as being created from a period of time

Wisdom is said to before God’s oldest works, the verses do not only say what you imply.

SimonArizona:
We agree that Wisdom proceeds from God before the oldest of His works.

Dan:
The New Revised Standard Version faithfully reflects the Hebrew and shows that Wisdom was the beginning of God’s word and thus a part of it as well as being the first of the acts of God.

NRS Proverbs 8:22 The LORD created me at the beginning of his work, the first of his acts of long ago. 23 Ages ago I was set up, at the first, before the beginning of the earth.

SimonArizona:
“I was brought forth from olam.” It is not clear from these verses that Wisdom has a beginning, as at one time did not exist at all.

Dan:
Yes it is clear. The Hebrew is reshit darko (beginning of his way) and it describes Wisdom. The beginning of something in the context is a part of something, the first part. The first-part of God’s way, Wisdom is the first thing God produces, before even his oldest works, before all things existed, eternal production.

Some bible versions interpret the beginning of his way as the time when things were created. This interpretation still puts the acquisition of Wisdom by creating or begetting as being included with the other things God created.

A creation out of nothing into time is another hebrew word.

I’m tired of this circulation.

 

[Danno2281]

At best what you have is to force the temporal language to be metaphorical in some sense in order to make the text read in a way that is consistent with your theology. That is why some Fathers decided to make this a description of the incarnation, but that has its own set of problems.

Do you agree that if we take the text as it is written, temporal language and all, that it support my view? You must, for you argue against the normative sense for these words.

It is most certainly written in terms of time; that is not the question. What is in question is whether the application of the format indicates what you would have it indicate, or whether “from everlasting” as used here and in Psalm 90 colors that application to make evident an indication different from what you would have…

 

[Dan_Parker]

SimonArizona:
No one but God can ever eternally possess something, or ever eternally create something.

Dan:
Agreed, but Proverbs 8 does not describe God as eternally possessing something or eternally creating something. It says he created something or came into possession of something that was a long time ago and before the world was made.

SimonArizona:
If you say it has never been used that way before, you may be correct, but that is not the same as saying itcannotbe used that way. The word can mean to possess.

Dan:
No, the word cannot mean merely to possess as in to hold something in one’s possession. It always means something that was acquired by creating, begetting, buying etc. That prevents its use as something one always had.

SimonArizona:]
How long a thing is possessed the word itself does not say, just like in english. But the next verse, which describes the length of possession, can say, “I was brought forth eternally.”

Dan:
No, you are changing the use of the word in a very non-literal fashion. The word olam is not being used as an adverb to modify the nature of the begetting. It is being used as a temporal modifier to describe the when of what happened, not the how.

SimonArizona:]
Yes it can, i’ll show you why; because that language is also used of God. it is tranlslated NAB 22
5 "The LORD begot me, the first-born of his ways, the forerunner of his prodigies of long ago;
23
6 From of old** (is also used of God)** I was poured forth, at the first, before the earth.

Dan:
The word is used of God but not in the same way. God is not said to have been begotten from olam and before the creation of the word. God is said to be simply olam. That is a big difference.

SimonArizona:]
It is not impossible for God to eternally fashion something. Is it?

Dan:
A great many things are possible, but Proverbs 8 does not teach any of those things, including God eternally fashioning something. In fact the word create here is not found in the continuous verbal aspect.

Quanah in the Hebrew is a Qal Perfect which has the sense of a completed action. The word KTIZW in the Greek Septuagint is therefore rendered as the aorist tense form which means past time. Created in English is also past time. Both Hebrew and Greek have the imperfect verbal forms which would be used for something that is being presented as still happening or happening continuously.

SimonArizona:]
Wisdom is said to before God’s oldest works, the verses do not only say what you imply.

Dan:
Literally it is reshit darko or the beginning of his ways. When you say before his oldest works you make a distinction that the Hebrew does not make. The beginning of something is part of the something in Hebrew. The NJB says this is the first-fruits of God’s fashioning.

SimonArizona:
We agree that Wisdom proceeds from God before the oldest of His works.

Dan:
No we do not agree, see above.

Dan:
The New Revised Standard Version faithfully reflects the Hebrew and shows that Wisdom was the beginning of God’s word and thus a part of it as well as being the first of the acts of God.

NRS Proverbs 8:22 The LORD created me at the beginning of his work, the first of his acts of long ago. 23 Ages ago I was set up, at the first, before the beginning of the earth.

SimonArizona:
“I was brought forth from olam.” It is not clear from these verses that Wisdom has a beginning, as at one time did not exist at all.

Dan:
Yes it is clear. The Hebrew is reshit darko (beginning of his way) and it describes Wisdom. The beginning of something in the context is a part of something, the first part. The first-part of God’s way, Wisdom is the first thing God produces, before even his oldest works, before all things existed, eternal production.

SimonArizona:
A creation out of nothing into time is another hebrew word.

I’m tired of this circulation.

Dan:
I don’t make any claim as to the type of creation here. However creation implies that something new came into existence that was not there before.

 

[Dan_Parker]

It is most certainly written in terms of time; that is not the question. What is in question is whether the application of the format indicates what you would have it indicate, or whether “from everlasting” as used here and in Psalm 90 colors that application to make evident an indication different from what you would have…

Since it is written in terms of time, then what proof do you have that it should not be considered as it was written?

 

[Danno2281]

Since it is written in terms of time, then what proof do you have that it should not be considered as it was written?

Let us assume your position - that Wisdom was created, that there was a time when it did not exist. God was then without wisdom. That is a necessary conclusion from your premise. To posit God as being without Wisdom is to deny divinity not only to the Word, but to the Father as well.
In posessing Wisdom from all eternity, God is not changed, as you would have Him, but remains the omniscient, omnipotent deity. You may wish to check into Mormon beliefs about God becoming God. You appear to have much in common…

 

[Dan_Parker]

Let us assume your position - that Wisdom was created, that there was a time when it did not exist. God was then without wisdom. That is a necessary conclusion from your premise. To posit God as being without Wisdom is to deny divinity not only to the Word, but to the Father as well.
In posessing Wisdom from all eternity, God is not changed, as you would have Him, but remains the omniscient, omnipotent deity. You may wish to check into Mormon beliefs about God becoming God. You appear to have much in common…

I have found that many don’t understand that wisdom in Hebrew is not the mere possession of knowledge, but the practical demonstration of knowledge in some sort of skilled craft.

In Scripture the Hebrew hokma (wisdom) was used of the practical application of knowledge in some work or activity. Here is a good example:

NJB Exodus 35:30 Moses then said to the Israelites, 'Look, Yahweh has singled out Bezalel son of Uri, son of Hur, of the tribe of Judah, 31 and has filled him with the spirit of God in **wisdom, knowledge and skill in every kind of craft: 32 in designing and carrying out work in gold and silver and bronze**, 33 in cutting stones to be set, in wood carving and in executing every kind of work.

We might not think of wisdom in English as what it takes to perform crafts, but in Hebrew this was so.

With his first creation Yahweh demonstrated his Wisdom in this way for the first time:

NJB Proverbs 8:22 '**Yahweh created me, first-fruits of his fashioning**, before the oldest of his works. 23 From everlasting, I was firmly set, from the beginning, before the earth came into being. 24 The deep was not, when I was born, nor were the springs with their abounding waters. 25 Before the mountains were settled, before the hills, I came to birth; 26 before he had made the earth, the countryside, and the first elements of the world. 27 When he fixed the heavens firm, I was there, when he drew a circle on the surface of the deep, 28 when he thickened the clouds above, when the sources of the deep began to swell, 29 when he assigned the sea its boundaries -- and the waters will not encroach on the shore -- when he traced the foundations of the earth, 30** I was beside the master craftsman, delighting him day after day, ever at play in his presence**,

Interestingly, Wisdom Personified as the Son of God here is also depicted as the master craftsman. He is himself displaying Wisdom as depicted in the Hebrew language.

Once one understands what Wisdom means in Hebrew it is easy to understand how God could be without Wisdom in the sense of making something.

That is not to say he was not capable prior to this, but he demonstrated it for the first time when he created his Son.