JL: Well if it is refering to the Son of God and the Son of God is the Word and the Word was God and the Word was made flesh then WISDOM can only be eternal, the Alpha and Omega. Regardless if WISDOM had a beginning then God would have had to have a beginning, otherwise God would is dependent on something created to have sound judgement.I would also add to our discussion of Proverbs 8:22 that is surprises me that some Catholics attempt to teach that this does not refer to the Son of God when all the Fathers agreed it does refer to the Son. The fact that wisdom in Hebrew is feminine does not prove that this is not the Son any more than the fact that Qoheleth is feminine in Hebrew could be used to prove Solomon was not a man.
NJB Ecclesiastes 1:1 Composition of Qoheleth son of David, king in Jerusalem.
I realize you don’t make these arguments, but some are and I wanted to bring this up. Of course, if ‘4’ means those arguments, then I have responded to them
JL: And your point would be? The WT founding fathers also worshiped the Son of God till the 1950’s.I would also add to our discussion of Proverbs 8:22 that is surprises me that some Catholics attempt to teach that this does not refer to the Son of God when all the Fathers agreed it does refer to the Son. The fact that wisdom in Hebrew is feminine does not prove that this is not the Son any more than the fact that Qoheleth is feminine in Hebrew could be used to prove Solomon was not a man.
NJB Ecclesiastes 1:1 Composition of Qoheleth son of David, king in Jerusalem.
I realize you don’t make these arguments, but some are and I wanted to bring this up. Of course, if ‘4’ means those arguments, then I have responded to them
You accuse me of equivocating. Let’s look at the facts. We are discussing Wiasdom as used in the Book of Proverbs. It might be helpful to begin the study of any portion of a book by looking at the intent of the author, if that can be ascertained, and in this case, it certainly can, right at the beginning of the book. Nowhere can you force you definition of wisdom upon the text. Craftsmanship is not the subject of this work, but rather a frame of mind that brings one’s thinking into alignment with the Divine Mind, the Divine Mind as it moved to bring the world into being, not in chaos, but in harmonious order. This is the quality of Wisdom that this whole work is reflective of. If you choose to remove some text from this overview, it is you who are equivocating and betraying the stated purpose of the text.I derive my concept of wisdom from the way the word is used in Scripture. I don’t argue that wisdom is only used in one way, but the context of Proverbs 8 fits the following very well. This is from the Halot Hebrew lexicon and the word rendered as “skill” in these passages is hokma, or Wisdom.
Now in our passage, note how much of the context of Wisdom here deals with **skillfully **making something:
NAB Proverbs 8:22 "The LORD begot me, the first-born of his ways (works), the forerunner of his prodigies of long ago; 23 From of old I was poured forth, at the first, before the earth. 24 When there were no depths I was brought forth, when there were no fountains or springs of water; 25 Before the mountains were settled into place, before the hills, I was brought forth; 26 While as yet the earth and the fields were not made, nor the first clods of the world. 27 "When he established the heavens I was there, when he marked out the vault over the face of the deep; 28 When he made firm the skies above, when he fixed fast the foundations of the earth; 29 When he set for the sea its limit, so that the waters should not transgress his command; 30 Then was I beside him as his craftsman, and I was his delight day by day, Playing before him all the while,
Wisdom is being called Yahweh’s craftsman. There is no other gloss with respect to the Hebrew hokma that fits Wisdom better than one who displays a skill in making something.
When you make the argument that this means God was without Wisdom, what you are really doing is equivocating unintentionally. That means that you take a word with more than one sense and substitute one in your objection which is not the real sense of the word.
There is no doubt but that Hebrew hokma in the sense of a skilled craftsman is in view in this passage.
What is it that you think was created before this so that God or his Son could be considered wise in the sense of making something? Don’t Catholics teach that the creation being described in Proverbs 8 is the beginning of Creation?
Proverbs deals with a great many subjects. I argue from the immediate context. You say that “Craftsmanship is not the subject of this work,” but it is a very large part of the subject in the passage which we are discussing. When one exegetes a passage one must take into consideration a number of factors which include the theme of a book as a whole, the pattern formed by the writer in general and the immediate context of the passage in question, to mention a few.You accuse me of equivocating. Let’s look at the facts. We are discussing Wiasdom as used in the Book of Proverbs. It might be helpful to begin the study of any portion of a book by looking at the intent of the author, if that can be ascertained, and in this case, it certainly can, right at the beginning of the book. Nowhere can you force you definition of wisdom upon the text. Craftsmanship is not the subject of this work, but rather a frame of mind that brings one’s thinking into alignment with the Divine Mind, the Divine Mind as it moved to bring the world into being, not in chaos, but in harmonious order. This is the quality of Wisdom that this whole work is reflective of. If you choose to remove some text from this overview, it is you who are equivocating and betraying the stated purpose of the text.
The Eternal Word made manifest in this harmonious development (remember that it is certainly not clear that the Hebrews held to creation from nothing, but seem to have accepted creation out of chaos) is not brought into being as if not having any existence prior, but simply made evident. To assign a new ability of fashioning to God is to make the Eternal subject to change, to “rob” Him of His divinity
Proverbs deals with a great many subjects. I argue from the immediate context. You say that “Craftsmanship is not the subject of this work,” but it is a very large part of the subject in the passage which we are discussing. When one exegetes a passage one must take into consideration a number of factors which include the theme of a book as a whole, the pattern formed by the writer in general and the immediate context of the passage in question, to mention a few.
You define the theme of the book of Proverbs but don’t explain why Craftsmanship is both 1) Explicitly highlighted in our passage and 2) Prominently emphasized with numerous examples of the Craftsmanship which fits the sense of the Hebrew hokma to which I appeal.
Finally, I sincerely doubt that you will hold to this hermeneutic in all your discussions. Think about it. You propose a sense to a particular passage which fits Catholic theology and all I need to do to dismiss it, is to look at the beginning of the book and assert a different sense to the work as a whole.
How many of your doctrines will survive this arbitrary and self-serving test?
I could go on an on…
- God is three persons - strike one
- God and Jesus are the same substance - strike two
- Purgatory exists - strike three
1)“baptizing them in the name(singular) of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit”(Mt.28:19)Proverbs deals with a great many subjects. I argue from the immediate context. You say that “Craftsmanship is not the subject of this work,” but it is a very large part of the subject in the passage which we are discussing. When one exegetes a passage one must take into consideration a number of factors which include the theme of a book as a whole, the pattern formed by the writer in general and the immediate context of the passage in question, to mention a few.
You define the theme of the book of Proverbs but don’t explain why Craftsmanship is both 1) Explicitly highlighted in our passage and 2) Prominently emphasized with numerous examples of the Craftsmanship which fits the sense of the Hebrew hokma to which I appeal.
Finally, I sincerely doubt that you will hold to this hermeneutic in all your discussions. Think about it. You propose a sense to a particular passage which fits Catholic theology and all I need to do to dismiss it, is to look at the beginning of the book and assert a different sense to the work as a whole.
How many of your doctrines will survive this arbitrary and self-serving test?
I could go on an on…
- God is three persons - strike one
- God and Jesus are the same substance - strike two
- Purgatory exists - strike three
Ahh, so now you change the restriction in a subtle way! You have attempted to shift the burden of proof to me for your doctrines while not proving the same thing yourself in Proverbs! .You have not demonstrated that the beginning of Proverbs is contrary to the teaching that the wisdom in Proverbs 8:22-30 is the wisdom of Craftsman in creation! In fact in the beginning section of Proverbs we are told Yahweh laid the earth’s foundation in wisdom!1)“baptizing them in the name(singular) of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit”(Mt.28:19)
2) “That they all may be one, as Thou Father in Me and I in Thee” (Jn.17:21).
3)“if his work burns, he will lose his reward, but himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.” (1 Cor.3:15). Just a few citations.
All three survive - for those with Wisdom. Propose something at the beginning of any book of scripture and find a sense contrary to those teachings, if you can.
What you do not seem to understand is that our religion is not founded upon a book. The book is the product of the religion, not vice versa. The bible exists to help me to understand what I already believe in faith. It is not the reason for my faith. We are not Protestants. I do not define the theme of the book of Proverbs - the author, Solomon does. I read what is written in accord with what he seeks to convey. It is you who have chosen to emphasize craftsmanship, just one of the many facets of wisdom, rather than the whole of wisdom. Just a suggestion - why don’t you give this some serious prayer? It couldn’t hurt.
Dan,twb1621,
Getting back to the original topic, John 1:1, it appears that our esteemed adversary, Dan, has not taken a closer look at Matthew 26: 57-75, Mark 14:53:72; Luke 22:54:71 and John 28: 12-27 for quite some time.
Actually, it is the Father, the one who is, who was and who is to come, who states he is the Alpha and Omega, in a context where he is distinguished from Jesus. (Rev 1:4-8) If you say that Jesus is the Father then you are not Trinitarian. Jesus is not the Father to either Trinitarians or Jehovah’s Witnesses.Firstly, It is Jesus who speaks to John in Revelations. He says, Revelations 22:13 “I am the Alpha and the Omega – the Beginning and End – the First and the Last.” If Jesus is the Alpha and Omega, then He is GOD.
Secondly, according to Old Testament prophecy, Jesus is called “Father of Eternity, Mighty God” along with other titles that is “Prince of Peace”. Isaiah 9:6 “For a Child hath been born to us, A Son hath been given to us, And the princely power is on his shoulder, And He doth call his name Wonderful, Counsellor, Mighty God, Father of Eternity, Prince of Peace.”
Jesus is Alpha and Omega? Mighty God? Father of Eternity? But doesn’t God state that He is Alpha and Omega, Mighty God, Father of Eternity??? The only conclusion is… well I will let you sort that one out.
Of course He lay the foundation in wisdom, wisdom so different from chaos. “Through His knowledge the depths…” Would you have the sacred writer asserting that this great knowledge did not exist prior to the formation of the world? Sorry, Dan, Wisdom is so much more than craftsmanship. I have not denied craftsmanship to wisdom (and never questioned that it might include it), but you seek to limit it to that craftsmanship, a position foreign to Solomon’s.Ahh, so now you change the restriction in a subtle way! You have attempted to shift the burden of proof to me for your doctrines while not proving the same thing yourself in Proverbs! .You have not demonstrated that the beginning of Proverbs is contrary to the teaching that the wisdom in Proverbs 8:22-30 is the wisdom of Craftsman in creation! In fact in the beginning section of Proverbs we are told Yahweh laid the earth’s foundation in wisdom!
NJB Proverbs 3:19 In wisdom, Yahweh laid the earth’s foundations, in understanding he spread out the heavens. 20 Through his knowledge the depths were cleft open, and the clouds distil the dew. 21 My child, hold to sound advice and prudence, never let them out of sight;
Later in in chapter 8 this thought is greatly expanded. I don’t agree that it is necessary for wisdom to be associated with creation at the beginning of the book for Proverbs 8 to teach this, but I did not want you to think it was totally absent.
As for emphasizing wisdom in craftsmanship, I have only done so in the context where craftsmanship is already emphasized by the bible writer. Remember, you criticize my view because you were not aware of this aspect of wisdom. Now that I have proved this aspect of wisdom is prevalent in the Hebrew and in particular in our passage, your argument that God was without Wisdom in an entirely different sense in my view has been proven incorrect.
It is only possible to make that argument by equivocating on the word wisdom. Wisdom in Proverbs 8:22-30 is not found isolated from Craftsmanship, in fact quite the opposite!
I don’t claim that Craftsmanship defines all the senses of Wisdom, but you apparently won’t acknowledge that this sense is in view in Proverbs 8:22-30, even when it is explicitly mentioned. The creation of the Son was the first time the Father demonstrated wisdom in the sense of craftsmanship. Next came the heavens and earth and those things that the Father and Son did together. It is all there in Proverbs 8:22-30!Of course He lay the foundation in wisdom, wisdom so different from chaos. “Through His knowledge the depths…” Would you have the sacred writer asserting that this great knowledge did not exist prior to the formation of the world? Sorry, Dan, Wisdom is so much more than craftsmanship. I have not denied craftsmanship to wisdom (and never questioned that it might include it), but you seek to limit it to that craftsmanship, a position foreign to Solomon’s.
And I have not shifted the burden of proof to you for “my” doctrines. They stand quite well without your carrying the burden.
Contrary to your assertion, I have never defined wisdom. You have, in post#486:I don’t claim that Craftsmanship defines all the senses of Wisdom, but you apparently won’t acknowledge that this sense is in view in Proverbs 8:22-30, even when it is explicitly mentioned. The creation of the Son was the first time the Father demonstrated wisdom in the sense of craftsmanship. Next came the heavens and earth and those things that the Father and Son did together. It is all there in Proverbs 8:22-30!
Saying Wisdom is more than Craftsmanship does is not the same thing as proving that the description of Wisdom at the beginning of Proverbs prevents that understanding in Proverbs 8.
I have successfully responded to your claim that Wisdom cannot have been created in Proverbs 8 just because you define wisdom as not being related to craftsmanship, contra the inspired writer at Proverbs 8:22-30.
Was God without Wisdom in the sense of knowledge and understanding? No. Was he ever without Wisdom in the sense of being a Craftsman? Yes, until he created his Son. That is what Proverbs 8:22-30 teaches, temporal language and all.
There are various senses of Wisdom, including that of craftsman. However, even when Wisdom is used in other areas, it is generally for the accomplishment of some activity.Contrary to your assertion, I have never defined wisdom. You have, in post#486:
“I have found that many don’t understand that wisdom in Hebrew is not the mere possession of knowledge, but the practical demonstration of knowledge in some sort of skilled craft.”
What I have done is to point out that the author intends a great deal more by wisdom than your definition, which you actually conceded…When you temporize that faculty whereby creation came about, you put limits of time upon God. Remember that not only was the world made through the Word, it was also made for Him (Heb.3:10), and the purpose (the Word) exists before that which is created for a purpose.
Careful, I think that came with a thorn for the flesh. I ask one thing of you, Dan. I ask that you pray for wisdom, that you surrender you thinking to God and ask Him to direct it. I think that you will have no argument against such a course since it presumes nothing for a conclusion. Please make this your prayer.There are various senses of Wisdom, including that of craftsman. However, even when Wisdom is used in other areas, it is generally for the accomplishment of some activity.
In Proverbs 8:22-30 there is no doubt that it deals with the master craftsman. That is made explicit in the text. When it comes to many of your doctrines like the Trinity or Purgatory, if you had a passage like this to support those doctrines, you would be in seventh heaven. Alas, I am in seventh heaven.
Sorry if my sense of humor offended you. It was a failed attempt to bring levity to the discussion. I do pray for wisdom at least several times per week. I continue to believe that the sense of hokma as Craftsman in the ordering of the universe is the primary sense in view in Proverbs 8:22-30. You have also not answered direct questions I have asked on the Catholic view of this passage. Here is another shot.Careful, I think that came with a thorn for the flesh. I ask one thing of you, Dan. I ask that you pray for wisdom, that you surrender you thinking to God and ask Him to direct it. I think that you will have no argument against such a course since it presumes nothing for a conclusion. Please make this your prayer.
Dan,twb1621,
Getting back to the original topic, John 1:1, it appears that our esteemed adversary, Dan, has not taken a closer look at Matthew 26: 57-75, Mark 14:53:72; Luke 22:54:71 and John 28: 12-27 for quite some time.
Dan,Actually, it is the Father, the one who is, who was and who is to come, who states he is the Alpha and Omega, in a context where he is distinguished from Jesus. (Rev 1:4-8) If you say that Jesus is the Father then you are not Trinitarian. Jesus is not the Father to either Trinitarians or Jehovah’s Witnesses.
I suggest you read Revelation again, from the beginning. God gave the revelation to an angel who related it to John. It is the angel speaking to John.Dan,
Actually, Jeremy was correct. The Alpha and the Omega are symbols witnessing to the divinity of Christ. They were words spoken by Jesus himself.