John 10:30, I and My Father are One Why do Christians quote this verse?

[TruthKnight]

John 10:30, I and My Father are One

Why do Christians quote this verse?

By Sami Zaatari

Often when debates come up with Christians on the divinity of Christ, the passage from chapter ten in the book of John comes up; this passage is verse 30, which basically reads:

30 I and my Father are one

Now I don’t understand why many Christians would quote this verse, specifically Trinitarians, because what does this verse prove? Trinitarians do not believe Jesus is the Father, so why do they quote it? Are they quoting it to try and show that Jesus is equal to the Father? Well that isn’t true, since the Gospel of John shows the opposite, in fact if we quote one verse back we read:

29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand.

This is verse 29, it comes right before verse 30, and in verse 29 Jesus says the Father is greater than ALL, this obviously includes Jesus since he is not the Father. So therefore how to Christians try and assume that this verse shows equality between Jesus and the Father is beyond me, just a verse before it Jesus says the Father is greater than everyone!

In fact this is not the first time that Jesus says the Father is greater than him, he does it again later:

28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I (John 14:28)

So here we once again have Jesus claiming the Father is greater than him, so how is Jesus equal to the Father when Jesus says the contrary? Now Christians have come up with a way of trying to explain this verse off, they say that Jesus was talking as a man here, that as a man the Father is greater than him, they try and say that the Father meant he is greater than Jesus in rank and authority and not in essence.

However so what did Jesus mean in John 10 when Jesus said the Father is greater than ALL? Jesus placed himself in the category of ALL people, so therefore the Christian response will not work for John 10:29. It must be said though that the Christian response does not work for John chapter 14:28 neither, because the Christian argues from silence and is arguing something they have yet to prove. Christians cannot prove that Jesus has 2 natures, they can never get a single quote from the lips of Jesus saying I am man and Divine, that I have 2 natures and I gave one up and took on the man nature, this is non-existent, so therefore the response is from silence provided with no proof or a solid basis.

1-The fact is the Bible shows that the Father is greater than Jesus in essence, the Father is all-knowing and Jesus is not.

2-The Father gives Jesus everything from miracle to doctrine.

3-Jesus begs the Father to save him, obviously showing that life and death is controlled by the Father and NOT Jesus.

For all these arguments the Christian will say as man Jesus is not all-knowing, as man Jesus receives things from the Father, however so I will kindly ask the Christian bring this proof from the words of Jesus, they shall never be able to do it, this doctrine is an invention and not something to be found from Jesus.

So therefore in conclusion, John 10:30 proves nothing in support of the divinity of Jesus, it does not show equality, since Jesus made it clear that the Father is greater than him, so therefore Jesus is not equal with the Father.

 

[TruthKnight]

A Great Response by Dr. Zakir Naik

“I and the Father are One”
“I am the Way, the Truth and the Light”

See Also:

The “Son of God” Title in the 1 John 2:22

Jesus is Yahweh the Son? See how Christians got this very wrong in the NT, using Jesus’ words himself!
Also, is Islam the anti-Christ system according to 1 John 2:22?

666 | Anti-Christ | Dividing Israel

Note: The (*) links below are html backups of the website’s blog topic threads, in case the blog and its database are down.

From: www.answering-christianity.com/convert_christians.htm:

1 John 2:22-23 are discussed further down in details in this table.

God in the OT addresses people as “my son” and describes them as his begotten son. Why does God use these terms with others in the time of Moses and Jesus and Abraham and other prophets, and now condemns these tittles in the Quran? Why would God give room to misuse these terms like the Greek and Romans did?

The Doubting Thomas:

Doubting Thomas said “My Lord and my God” to Jesus. Yet, all believers were called “God”, and Moses was the “God” of the Believers, Aaron and Pharaoh:

Moses was called “The God” (Exodus 7:1) of the Believers, Aaron and Pharaoh. Jesus said he was greater than Moses. Thomas, the Disciple, called Jesus “My Lord and my God” (John 20:28). Jesus denied to be GOD Almighty. All Believers were called “GODS and Sons of GOD” (Psalm 82:6) in the Bible. “GOD” in the Bible also means master, leader, priest. Therefore, the doubting Thomas’ statement didn’t suggest that Jesus was his Creator. And Jesus being a “God” doesn’t mean that he is GOD Almighty. He is just another mere “God” like the rest of the believing creations and nothing more.

The Bible also says that Jesus had to be “in according to Melchizedek”. And who is Melchizedek? According to the Bible, he was the Jews’ highest priest who had “no father and no mother”, and “no beginning and no end” (Genesis 14:18, Psalm 110:4, Hebrews 5:6-10, Hebrews 7:1-20). Jesus had to be similar and inline with him; another proof that Jesus being “God” doesn’t mean he is the Creator of the Universe.

The Bible called Jesus a slave (abd) of GOD throughout the Old Testament!

Jesus denied knowing when Judgment Day will come, and said I DON’T KNOW, ONLY GOD ALONE KNOWS!

For ample more details, visit:

www.answering-christianity.com/godtitle.htm
www.answering-christianity.com/convert_christians.htm
www.answering-christianity.com/son_of_god.htm
Also, the Family of Allah أهل الله in Islam, and the Majestic “We” [1] [2] [3]

www.answering-christianity.com/blog/index.php?topic=1904.msg7673#msg7673
www.answering-christianity.com/john20_28.htm
www.answering-christianity.com/jesus_had_no_will.htm
www.answering-christianity.com/jesus_miracles.htm (non of Jesus’ Miracles were unique)
www.answering-christianity.com/ac7.htm#links
www.answering-christianity.com/jesus_called_slave_in_bible.htm

 

[TruthKnight]

Father and Son Definitions:

Definition of Key Terms (*) (a discussion between me and a Christian):

1- What does “The Father” really mean in the Bible? How is it defined in Islam? (see point #5 below) How does the Bible really define it?

2- What does “Son of GOD” really mean in the Bible?

3- Jesus had to match Melchizedek in Miracles and Power, according to the New Testament. See this text-debate (*) between me and a Christian. Jesus’ Miracles and Miraculous Birth and Nature were given to him because he needed to be in according to Melchizedek. He had to be “in according to Melchizedek” as the Bible specifically says. See Genesis 14:18, Psalm 110:4, Hebrews 5:6-10, Hebrews 7:1-20 [2].

Who is Melchizedek?

According to the Bible, he was the Jews’ highest priest who had “no father and no mother”, and “no beginning and no end” (Genesis 14:18, Psalm 110:4, Hebrews 5:6-10, Hebrews 7:1-20) [2]. The Bible literally says that. Jesus had to be similar and inline with him; another proof that Jesus being “God” doesn’t mean he is the Creator of the Universe.

Is Jesus Allah Almighty for creating things in the Noble Quran? And is he better than Prophet Muhammad for being a creator? And is there a contradiction in the Noble Quran regarding idol gods not being able to create and Jesus Christ? See the Books that Allah Almighty gave to certain powerful Beings to enable them to possess certain Powers and to do certain Miracles, including limited Creations.

Also again, see this text-debate (*) between me and a Christian.

4- Does the Bible say that Yahweh created Jesus? Yes it does (*).

John 1:1
“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God was with authority (same Greek word for satan’s rule (*) [2] [3]).”

Detailed discussion about Jesus’ Will (*) with ample verses.

In Islam, there are three “Worlds” or Realms:

(a)- GOD Almighty, who is not seen by anyone or anything, nor is like unto anyone or anything.

(b)- The World of Command, which is the invisible world of the Beings that were made by the Word and the Spirit.

(c)- The World of Creation, the flush and blood, dust and water physical world and Universes (plural).

Also visit: Is the Noble Quran a Creator or Creation?

“Father” and “Son” in Islam and the Bible:
Christians often quote the following verses to prove that Islam is the Anti-Christ:

1 John 2
22 Who is a liar but he that denies that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
23 No one who denies the Son has the Father; whoever acknowledges the Son has the Father also.

5- What does the Glorious Quran say about the “Father” and “Son” titles:

The Quran is against the exaggerated and inflated meanings of the words, which ultimately the polytheistic religion of trinity was born out of.

Allah Almighty Said: “And they say: “(God) Most Gracious has begotten offspring.” Glory to Him! they are (but) servants raised to honour. (The Noble Quran, 21:26)”

 

[TruthKnight]

From answering-christianity.com/blog/index.php?topic=2141.msg9505#msg9505:

The Family of Allah أهل الله in Islam, and the Majestic “We”:

…

In regards to your question, there are two legitimate answers for it:

1- GOD Almighty can and does refer to Himself as WE and I. So the plural We can and does refer to Allah Almighty Alone.

2- In Allah Almighty’s Realm, there are the People of Allah. Even our Hadiths call them AHLU ALLAH أهل الله (Family of Allah).
Go to www.google.com, and search for إن لله - تعالى - أهلين من الناس، قالوا: يا رسول الله من هم؟ قال: هم أهل القران، أهل الله وخاصته

The Hadith in Arabic translates as:

“Allah Almighty has AHLEEN (families) أهلين from mankind. They asked: “O Messenger of Allah, who are they?” He said: They are the People of the Quran; the Family/People of GOD أهل الله , and they are His Special Ones خاصته.”

Note: Every Spoken Word from GOD Almighty is Quran, even before Islam.

This is what we will be called in Heaven, and Allah Almighty also does recognize “Son of GOD” title in the Glorious Quran, but Says that they are no more than pious “…servants raised to honour. (The Noble Quran, 21:26)”. Nothing Divine about them except that they exist with Allah Almighty Eternally in Heaven. But as far as Divine Authority and Power, all Divine Authority and Power belong to Allah Almighty Alone and none else. You can visit:

www.answering-christianity.com/definition_son_of_god.htm (The definition of “Son of God” in Islam)
www.answering-christianity.com/son_of_god_in_bible_and_quran_debate.ppt
www.answering-christianity.com/son_of_god.htm
www.answering-christianity.com/son_translation.htm
www.answering-christianity.com/debate_templates.htm
www.answering-christianity.com/convert_christians.htm

Iblis, who later became satan, used to be from AHLU ALLAH أهل الله (Family of Allah) when he was a pious Servant. But because he and his followers disobeyed GOD Almighty, they were cursed and kicked out of the COMMUNITY OF GOD Almighty:

www.answering-christianity.com/adam.htm

So it is quite possible that Allah Almighty uses the WE to refer to Him and His Servants that HE spoke with directly and Commanded directly. But even in that case, the WE still also means Allah Almighty Alone (the Majestic We), because Allah Almighty is the One and Only Decision Maker, and there is none other besides Him.

I hope this helps, insha’Allah.

Take care,
Osama Abdallah

 

[TruthKnight]

So people did call each others “Son” and “Daughter” of “GOD”. But in all reality, they are no more than Servants of GOD raised to honor.

Here are some Bible facts regarding “FATHER” and “SON”:
Allah Almighty is the Believers’ only Guardian (المولى): See Noble Verses 8:40, 22:13, 22:78.

In Arabic we say ولي الأمر , which means “The Legal Guardian”. المولى is derived from the root word ولي .ولي also means a chosen friend to Allah Almighty.

FRIENDS = SONS in the Bible and Quran (ولي , وليهما and خليلا). We further read the following in the Bible:

Isaiah 41:8 "But you, Israel, my servant, Jacob, whom I have chosen, you descendants of Abraham my friend,

Chronicles 20:7 Our God, did you not drive out the inhabitants of this land before your people Israel and give it forever to the descendants of Abraham your friend?

James 2:23 And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,” and he was called God’s friend.

So being GOD Almighty’s “SON” in the Bible is equal to being GOD Almighty’s “FRIEND”. Now compare this to the following from the Holy Quran:

[002:257] Allah is the friend (ولي) and patron of those who believe. He brings them out of the depths of darkness into light. While those who do not believe, have the forces of evil as their friends; they lead them out of light, into the very depths of darkness. Such ones shall be the inmates of the fire. They will stay there forever.

[003:122] (And remember) when the two groups among you lost heart (and almost fell out), even though Allah was their Friend and Protector (وليهما)? In Allah (alone), should the believers place their trust!

[004:125] Who can be better in religion than one who submits his whole self to God, does good, and follows the way of Abraham the true in Faith? For God did take Abraham for a friend (خليلا).

So the Bible’s “FATHER” & “SON” for GOD Almighty and the Believers is clearly metaphoric, and it only means that GOD Almighty:
1- Is the Protector.
2- Is the Friend.
3- Is the Guardian.

Also, BEGET = CHOSE.

King James Bible Psalm 2:7 I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.

Allah Almighty used اصطفاك اصطفيتك يصطفي اصطفى اصطفينا to mean to Choose a Servant in Noble Verses 27:59, 3:33, 3:42, 7:144, 22:75, 35:32, 38:47, 39:4 in the Glorious Quran.

So clearly Islam is in harmony with GOD Almighty being our:

• Guardian
• Friend
• Protector
• And the One who Chose us.

And we definitely believe that Jesus is the Messiah.

One last important point: Nowhere in the Bible is Jesus ever called “from the Seed of GOD” or “the Seed of GOD”. We do have “Jesus is from the seed of David” (Psalm 132:10-11, Romans 1:3). But never from GOD!

GOD has no seed according to both the Bible and the Quran.

Therefore, the claim that Islam is the Anti-Christ is false.

So, is Islam the anti-Christ system according to 1john 2:22? No it isn’t. Here are some Quran and Bible facts regarding “FATHER” and “SON” in more details:

(a)- Allah Almighty is the Believers’ only Guardian (المولى):

See Noble Verses 8:40, 22:13, 22:78. In Arabic we say ولي الأمر , which means “The Legal Guardian”. المولى is derived from the root word ولي .ولي also means a chosen friend to Allah Almighty, as in the following point.

(b)- FRIENDS = SONS in the Bible and Quran (ولي , وليهما and خليلا):

We further read the following in the Bible:

Isaiah 41:8
"But you, Israel, my servant, Jacob, whom I have chosen, you descendants of Abraham my friend,

Chronicles 20:7
Our God, did you not drive out the inhabitants of this land before your people Israel and give it forever to the descendants of Abraham your friend?

James 2:23
And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,” and he was called God’s friend.

So being GOD Almighty’s “SON” in the Bible is equal to being GOD Almighty’s “FRIEND”. Now compare this to the following from the Holy Quran:

[002:257] Allah is the friend (ولي) and patron of those who believe. He brings them out of the depths of darkness into light. While those who do not believe, have the forces of evil as their friends; they lead them out of light, into the very depths of darkness. Such ones shall be the inmates of the fire. They will stay there forever.

[003:122] (And remember) when the two groups among you lost heart (and almost fell out), even though Allah was their Friend and Protector (وليهما)? In Allah (alone), should the believers place their trust!

[004:125] Who can be better in religion than one who submits his whole self to God, does good, and follows the way of Abraham the true in Faith? For God did take Abraham for a friend (خليلا).

So the Bible’s “FATHER” & “SON” for GOD Almighty and the Believers is clearly metaphoric, and it only means that GOD Almighty:

1- Is the Protector.
2- Is the Friend.
3- Is the Guardian.

Please visit the following link to further see what Words the Glorious Quran uses for these words and definitions:

answering-christianity.com/blog/index.php/topic,1368.msg5203.html#msg5203 (backup)

 

[TruthKnight]

(c)- BEGET = CHOSE:

Regarding the following verse, and many others like it:

King James Bible Psalm 2:7
I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.

Let us look at Noble Verses 27:59, 3:33, 3:42, 7:144, 22:75, 35:32, 38:47, 39:4 from the Glorious Quran:

[027:059] Say: Praise be to God, and Peace on his servants whom He has chosen اصطفى (for his Message). (Who) is better?- God or the false gods they associate (with Him)?

‏27:59 قل الحمد لله وسلام على عباده الذين اصطفى ءالله خير اما يشركون

[003:033] God did choose اصطفى Adam and Noah, the family of Abraham, and the family of 'Imran above all people,-

‏3:33 ان الله اصطفى ادم ونوحا وال ابراهيم وال عمران على العالمين

[003:042] Behold! the angels said: "O Mary! God hath chosen thee اصطفاك and purified thee- chosen thee above the women of all nations.

‏3:42 واذ قالت الملائكة يامريم ان الله اصطفاك وطهرك واصطفاك على نساء العالمين

[007:144] (God) said: “O Moses! I have chosen thee اصطفيتك above (other) men, by the mission I (have given thee) and the words I (have spoken to thee): take then the (revelation) which I give thee, and be of those who give thanks.”

‏7:144 قال ياموسى اني اصطفيتك على الناس برسالاتي وبكلامي فخذ ما اتيتك وكن من الشاكرين

[022:075] God chooses يصطفي messengers from angels and from men for God is He Who hears and sees (all things).

‏22:75 الله يصطفي من الملائكة رسلا ومن الناس ان الله سميع بصير

[035:032] Then We have given the Book for inheritance to such of Our Servants as We have chosen اصطفينا: but there are among them some who wrong their own souls; some who follow a middle course; and some who are, by God’s leave, foremost in good deeds; that is the highest Grace.

‏35:32 ثم اورثنا الكتاب الذين اصطفينا من عبادنا فمنهم ظالم لنفسه ومنهم مقتصد ومنهم سابق بالخيرات باذن الله ذلك هو الفضل الكبير

[038:047] They were, in Our sight, truly, of the company of the Elect المصطفين and the Good.

‏38:47 وانهم عندنا لمن المصطفين الاخيار

[039:004] Had God wished to take to Himself an (actual) son, He could have chosen لاصطفى whom He pleased out of those whom He doth create: but Glory be to Him! (He is above such things.) He is God, the One, the Irresistible.

‏39:4 لو اراد الله ان يتخذ ولدا لاصطفى مما يخلق مايشاء سبحانه هو الله الواحد القهار

Furthermore, when Jesus was asked about when the Hour will come, he replied by saying that only GOD Almighty Knows, and that no one knows, and that Jesus himself also didn’t know. Please visit:

answering-christianity.com/questions.htm
answering-christianity.com/ac7.htm#links

Jesus spelled it out clearly that he knew NOT. And as to calling GOD Almighty “Father”, and that Islam denies that GOD Almighty is an ACTUAL FATHER to anyone, in Islam GOD Almighty is called:

1- Rab - Lord, Father (you are the Rab of your home for being the husband and the father).

2- Wali - Guardian.

In the old Aramaic and Hebrew, GOD Almighty was called what-is-equivalent-to-Islam our Rab and Wali. But that doesn’t make GOD Almighty our actual Father. This is exactly as Judaism metaphors such as idolatry is equivalent to spiritual adultery. No Jew is actually married to GOD Almighty to actually commit a personal marriage-adultery against GOD Almighty! Yet, the Jews use metaphors like these. Islam came to straighten all of this out and to set the record straight that GOD Almighty has no son and no daughter. Otherwise, why would GOD Almighty torture us to Hell if we were His perfect sons and daughters?? No imperfect being could be an actual son of GOD Almighty (and no being is the son or daughter of GOD Almighty, period!):

[005:018] (Both) the Jews and the Christians say: “We are sons of God, and his beloved.” Say: “Why then doth He punish you for your sins? Nay, ye are but men,- of the men he hath created: He forgiveth whom He pleaseth, and He punisheth whom He pleaseth: and to God belongeth the dominion of the heavens and the earth, and all that is between: and unto Him is the final goal (of all)”

Again, please visit: answering-christianity.com/blog/index.php/topic,1368.msg5203.html#msg5203 (backup).

 

[TruthKnight]

The Logical Fallacy and Corruption of 1 John 2:22:

(d)- Let’s thoroughly look at the logical fallacy of this verse and its corruption:

1- " Who is the liar"?? Or should the text say who is the one who disbelieves?

The text clearly suggests that the book was written by a mere individual, whose emotions caused him to make a logical fallacy in the text, hence he is not a genuine Messenger of GOD.

Furthermore, we don’t see this statement anywhere else throughout the Bible! For such a serious statement to be truly from GOD Almighty, we would expect it to at the very least exist in any or all of the four gospels. But it exists in none, and not even in Paul’s writings either. It only exists once in this late epistle.

Furthermore, the Bible’s commentary regarding 1 John book say:

“1 John does not tell us who its author is. The earliest identification of him comes from the church fathers…” (From the NIV Bible Commentary, page 1904)

“The letter is difficult to date with precision…” (From the NIV Bible Commentary, page 1905)

For book bibliography, visit: www.answering-christianity.com/authors_gospels.htm

2- Also keep in mind that the 1 John book contains forgeries. For example:

1 John 5:7 “For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.” This verse was proven to be a forgery, and was removed from all of the modern Bible translations.

Please visit: www.answering-christianity.com/1john5_7.htm

6- Did you know that Elohim is Allah [1, *] [2] [3]. The “im” in Hebrew is a majestic plural for GOD Almighty. The root Word is “Eloh”. And the more original Jews such as Yemenites and others say Alohim or Alah-im. And when you yourself pronounce it, you do naturally pronounce it with a double “l”: Allah. Jews do call Him: Allah-im. Aramaic-speaking people also call GOD Almighty Allah. See the following videos for Biblical references and proofs. Also, pre-Islamic Biblical archeological findings have GOD Almighty as “Allah”. So the Original Holy Name for GOD Almighty is not Eloh. It is Allah! Eloh is a Hebrew dialect, which not all Hebrew speakers use anyway. Allah had always been the Original and Universal GOD Almighty even before birth of Judaism, and the existence Hebrew. And Hebrew is a developed language from Phoenician. See the following links:

       [youtube.com/watch?v=LAIp4Ju6DB8](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LAIp4Ju6DB8)
       [youtube.com/watch?v=IHhyu61f-wo](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IHhyu61f-wo)

   [en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoenician_alphabet](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoenician_alphabet)
   [en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biblical_Hebrew](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biblical_Hebrew)

 

[gazelam]

30 I and my Father are one

Now I don’t understand why many Christians would quote this verse, specifically Trinitarians, because what does this verse prove? Trinitarians do not believe Jesus is the Father, so why do they quote it? Are they quoting it to try and show that Jesus is equal to the Father? Well that isn’t true, since the Gospel of John shows the opposite, in fact if we quote one verse back we read:

Friend, I don’t have time to address each item you’ve posted, but I’ll comment on a couple of them.

Both Trinitarian and non-Trinitarian Christians would quote this verse because we believe that Jesus and God the Father have the exact same desires. They are One in purpose. They do not deviate in the least bit in their actions and desires.

29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand.

This is verse 29, it comes right before verse 30, and in verse 29 Jesus says the Father is greater than ALL, this obviously includes Jesus since he is not the Father. So therefore how to Christians try and assume that this verse shows equality between Jesus and the Father is beyond me, just a verse before it Jesus says the Father is greater than everyone!

So therefore in conclusion, John 10:30 proves nothing in support of the divinity of Jesus, it does not show equality, since Jesus made it clear that the Father is greater than him, so therefore Jesus is not equal with the Father.

You err assuming there can only be one God in Heaven. The Bible speaks of there being multiple gods. Both Jesus and God the Father have all power. However, Jesus is still subordinate to God the Father as this verse you quote states.

 

[gazelam]

GOD has no seed according to both the Bible and the Quran.

This statement is utterly false. The Bible clearly states that we are all offspring of God.

Hebrews 12:9 Besides this, we have had our earthly fathers to discipline us, and we respected them. Should we not [then] submit all the more to the** Father of spirits** and live?

Acts 17:28, 29 For ‘In him we live and move and have our being, as even some of your poets have said, ‘For we too are his offspring.’ Since therefore we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the divinity is like an image fashioned from gold, silver, or stone by human art and imagination.

 

[gazelam]

2- Also keep in mind that the 1 John book contains forgeries. For example:

1 John 5:7 “For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.” This verse was proven to be a forgery, and was removed from all of the modern Bible translations.

You are correct that there have been changes in the Bible that were not in the original text and this is a prime example of one of them. This verse is part of the “Johannine Comma”.

I hope these posts help…

 

[Reuben_J]

John 10:30, I and My Father are One

Why do Christians quote this verse?

By Sami Zaatari

Often when debates come up with Christians on the divinity of Christ, the passage from chapter ten in the book of John comes up; this passage is verse 30, which basically reads:

30 I and my Father are one

Now I don’t understand why many Christians would quote this verse, specifically Trinitarians, because what does this verse prove? Trinitarians do not believe Jesus is the Father, so why do they quote it? Are they quoting it to try and show that Jesus is equal to the Father? Well that isn’t true, since the Gospel of John shows the opposite, in fact if we quote one verse back we read:

29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand.

This is verse 29, it comes right before verse 30, and in verse 29 Jesus says the Father is greater than ALL, this obviously includes Jesus since he is not the Father. So therefore how to Christians try and assume that this verse shows equality between Jesus and the Father is beyond me, just a verse before it Jesus says the Father is greater than everyone!

In fact this is not the first time that Jesus says the Father is greater than him, he does it again later:

28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I (John 14:28)

So here we once again have Jesus claiming the Father is greater than him, so how is Jesus equal to the Father when Jesus says the contrary? Now Christians have come up with a way of trying to explain this verse off, they say that Jesus was talking as a man here, that as a man the Father is greater than him, they try and say that the Father meant he is greater than Jesus in rank and authority and not in essence.

However so what did Jesus mean in John 10 when Jesus said the Father is greater than ALL? Jesus placed himself in the category of ALL people, so therefore the Christian response will not work for John 10:29. It must be said though that the Christian response does not work for John chapter 14:28 neither, because the Christian argues from silence and is arguing something they have yet to prove. Christians cannot prove that Jesus has 2 natures, they can never get a single quote from the lips of Jesus saying I am man and Divine, that I have 2 natures and I gave one up and took on the man nature, this is non-existent, so therefore the response is from silence provided with no proof or a solid basis.

1-The fact is the Bible shows that the Father is greater than Jesus in essence, the Father is all-knowing and Jesus is not.

2-The Father gives Jesus everything from miracle to doctrine.

3-Jesus begs the Father to save him, obviously showing that life and death is controlled by the Father and NOT Jesus.

For all these arguments the Christian will say as man Jesus is not all-knowing, as man Jesus receives things from the Father, however so I will kindly ask the Christian bring this proof from the words of Jesus, they shall never be able to do it, this doctrine is an invention and not something to be found from Jesus.

So therefore in conclusion, John 10:30 proves nothing in support of the divinity of Jesus, it does not show equality, since Jesus made it clear that the Father is greater than him, so therefore Jesus is not equal with the Father.

I think, what’s the name, Sami Zataari, does not know about what Christians believe. There is so much error, it is difficult where to start.

 

[po18guy]

To answer, Christians retain and quote all of the scriptures as they are God’s revealed truth. The reason that the Trinity is emphasized is in response to heresy - challenges based on man’s opinions and not on revealed truth. Take for example the Arian heresy in which Arius denied the divinity of Christ.

You are correct that there have been changes in the Bible that were not in the original text and this is a prime example of one of them. This verse is part of the “Johannine Comma”. I hope these posts help…

1. Let’s be truthful! There ARE NO “original texts”, and there have not been for probably 1,900+ years! 2. The “comma” is clearly identified in nearly all bibles as not being present in all manuscripts. 3. Its presence or absence proves nothing. 4. The content of the “comma” is allowed since its lesson in faith and morals is 100% consistent with the teaching of Christ. There is no controversy here for Christians.

To repeat: There are NO - zip, zero, nada - “original documents” of any sacred scripture - including the Quran. All perished long ago. Not even Saint Jerome in 380 had a single “original.” As to the Judeo-Christian scriptures, faithful copying over the centuries, along with confirmation by the consistent and living Tradition of the Church, has preserved the scriptures to this day. Although their form is certainly slightly different due to differences in copyists and translation, their content regarding faith and morals is identical.

I find it interesting that two new religions (Islam/LDS) that arrived 600 and 1800 years after Christ have so many eerie similarities in their founding, beliefs, assertion that scripture is corrupted and in the violence and turmoil that resulted when their leaders were killed. Both were allegedly apparitions of an angel - but with zero evidence or witnesses. Both rely 100% on believers unquestioningly accepting the word of one man. Curious that both deny the long established tenets of true Christianity.

 

[Lenten_ashes]

I find it interesting that two new religions (Islam/LDS) that arrived 600 and 1800 years after Christ have so many eerie similarities in their founding, beliefs, assertion that scripture is corrupted and in the violence and turmoil that resulted when their leaders were killed. Both were allegedly apparitions of an angel - but with zero evidence or witnesses. Both rely 100% on believers unquestioningly accepting the word of one man. Curious that both deny the long established tenets of true Christianity.

And both OK with polygamy.

 

[Lenten_ashes]

John 10:30, I and My Father are One

Why do Christians quote this verse?

By Sami Zaatari

Often when debates come up with Christians on the divinity of Christ, the passage from chapter ten in the book of John comes up; this passage is verse 30, which basically reads:

30 I and my Father are one

Now I don’t understand why many Christians would quote this verse, specifically Trinitarians, because what does this verse prove? Trinitarians do not believe Jesus is the Father, so why do they quote it? Are they quoting it to try and show that Jesus is equal to the Father? Well that isn’t true, since the Gospel of John shows the opposite, in fact if we quote one verse back we read:

29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand.

This is verse 29, it comes right before verse 30, and in verse 29 Jesus says the Father is greater than ALL, this obviously includes Jesus since he is not the Father. So therefore how to Christians try and assume that this verse shows equality between Jesus and the Father is beyond me, just a verse before it Jesus says the Father is greater than everyone!

In fact this is not the first time that Jesus says the Father is greater than him, he does it again later:

28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I (John 14:28)

So here we once again have Jesus claiming the Father is greater than him, so how is Jesus equal to the Father when Jesus says the contrary? Now Christians have come up with a way of trying to explain this verse off, they say that Jesus was talking as a man here, that as a man the Father is greater than him, they try and say that the Father meant he is greater than Jesus in rank and authority and not in essence.

However so what did Jesus mean in John 10 when Jesus said the Father is greater than ALL? Jesus placed himself in the category of ALL people, so therefore the Christian response will not work for John 10:29. It must be said though that the Christian response does not work for John chapter 14:28 neither, because the Christian argues from silence and is arguing something they have yet to prove. Christians cannot prove that Jesus has 2 natures, they can never get a single quote from the lips of Jesus saying I am man and Divine, that I have 2 natures and I gave one up and took on the man nature, this is non-existent, so therefore the response is from silence provided with no proof or a solid basis.

1-The fact is the Bible shows that the Father is greater than Jesus in essence, the Father is all-knowing and Jesus is not.

2-The Father gives Jesus everything from miracle to doctrine.

3-Jesus begs the Father to save him, obviously showing that life and death is controlled by the Father and NOT Jesus.

For all these arguments the Christian will say as man Jesus is not all-knowing, as man Jesus receives things from the Father, however so I will kindly ask the Christian bring this proof from the words of Jesus, they shall never be able to do it, this doctrine is an invention and not something to be found from Jesus.

So therefore in conclusion, John 10:30 proves nothing in support of the divinity of Jesus, it does not show equality, since Jesus made it clear that the Father is greater than him, so therefore Jesus is not equal with the Father.

Hi.

It helps to read things as a totality instead of relying on cherry picked and twisted propaganda from Zakir Naik, who has demonstrated zero interest in actually understanding what we believe and why we believe it.

Jesus said:

John 8:23
But he continued, "You are from below; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world.

So what does that mean? It means just like Paul said - he emptied himself and become a bondservant.

Philippians 2:7
but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men.

So that explains the passages being twisted in the OP.

Thanks and God bless…

 

[Dorothy]

There are Three Persons in One God!

Father, Son, and Holy Spirit!

When the Second Person of the Blessed Trinity became man to redeem us, He took upon Himself both a Divine Nature and a human nature. Alleluia!

Lord, send us Your Holy Spirit and the gifts we need to obey You!

John 16:12 “I have much more to tell you, but you cannot bear it now.”

 

[Stephen_says]

John 10:30, I and My Father are One

1-The fact is the Bible shows that the Father is greater than Jesus in essence, the Father is all-knowing and Jesus is not.

So therefore in conclusion, John 10:30 proves nothing in support of the divinity of Jesus, it does not show equality, since Jesus made it clear that the Father is greater than him, so therefore Jesus is not equal with the Father.

The Father may be said in some manner to be greater than the Son, if we consider the order of the divine processions, that is, that the Father is the first person, and proceeds from no other; whereas the Son proceeds from the Father. If any one, says St Chrysostom will contend, that the Father is greater, inasmuch as he is the cause, from which the Son proceedeth, we will bear with him, and this way of speaking: provided he grant that the Son is not of a different substance, or nature. St Athanasius allows the same, and takes notice, that though the Father is said to be greater, yet he is not said to be better, nor more excellent, than the Son; because they are one and the same in substance, nature, and other perfections.

 

[Stephen_says]

They can never get a single quote from the lips of Jesus saying I am man and Divine, that I have 2 natures and I gave one up and took on the man nature, this is non-existent, so therefore the response is from silence provided with no proof or a solid basis.

You’re right, I guess, there is no ONE single quote where he says this, but there are many many quotes where he teaches this.

**Mark 4: 11 **And he said to them: To you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but to them that are without, all things are done in parables:

John 14:9 Jesus saith to him: Have I been so long a time with you; and have you not known me? Philip, he that seeth me seeth the Father also.

**John 8:58 **Jesus said to them: Amen, amen I say to you, before Abraham was made, I AM.

John 18:4 Jesus therefore, knowing all things that should come upon him, went forth, and said to them: Whom seek ye? 5 They answered him: Jesus of Nazareth. Jesus saith to them: I AM

 

[Fiasco]

Both Trinitarian and non-Trinitarian Christians would quote this verse because we believe that Jesus and God the Father have the exact same desires. They are One in purpose. They do not deviate in the least bit in their actions and desires

That’s misleading.

You err assuming there can only be one God in Heaven. The Bible speaks of there being multiple gods. Both Jesus and God the Father have all power. However, Jesus is still subordinate to God the Father as this verse you quote states.

You’re basing this belief on the writings of Joseph Smith, writings which contradict the truth that there’s “only” one God. There are not multiple gods above us. That’s LDS belief, and not orthodox.
Dorothy says it:

There are Three Persons in One God!

Father, Son, and Holy Spirit!

When the Second Person of the Blessed Trinity became man to redeem us, He took upon Himself both a Divine Nature and a human nature. Alleluia!

John 16:12 “I have much more to tell you, but you cannot bear it now.”

Frank Sheed’s book Theology and Sanity devotes more than 30 pages to the doctrine of the Blessed Trinity. It goes deep into the doctrine.
When dealing with the inner Life of God, at least some effort has to be expended if we want to pick up anything worthwhile.

An older, and virtually identical, version of T & S is available online.
It’s easy to find the section on God: (but it would benefit everyone to read the whole book)

www.katapi.org.uk/TandS/Contents.html

Please read it! It’s vital!

There’s a term called “Kenosis” which means “emptying” ie where the Eternal Word empties Himself and takes on a human nature, recorded in Philippians 2:7:

www.newadvent.org/cathen/08617a.htm

 

[steve_b]

John 10:30, I and My Father are One

Why do Christians quote this verse?

By Sami Zaatari

Often when debates come up with Christians on the divinity of Christ, the passage from chapter ten in the book of John comes up; this passage is verse 30, which basically reads:

30 I and my Father are one

Now I don’t understand why many Christians would quote this verse, specifically Trinitarians, because what does this verse prove? Trinitarians do not believe Jesus is the Father, so why do they quote it? Are they quoting it to try and show that Jesus is equal to the Father? Well that isn’t true, since the Gospel of John shows the opposite, in fact if we quote one verse back we read:

29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand.

This is verse 29, it comes right before verse 30, and in verse 29 Jesus says the Father is greater than ALL, this obviously includes Jesus since he is not the Father. So therefore how to Christians try and assume that this verse shows equality between Jesus and the Father is beyond me, just a verse before it Jesus says the Father is greater than everyone!

In fact this is not the first time that Jesus says the Father is greater than him, he does it again later:

28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I (John 14:28)

So here we once again have Jesus claiming the Father is greater than him, so how is Jesus equal to the Father when Jesus says the contrary? Now Christians have come up with a way of trying to explain this verse off, they say that Jesus was talking as a man here, that as a man the Father is greater than him, they try and say that the Father meant he is greater than Jesus in rank and authority and not in essence.

However so what did Jesus mean in John 10 when Jesus said the Father is greater than ALL? Jesus placed himself in the category of ALL people, so therefore the Christian response will not work for John 10:29. It must be said though that the Christian response does not work for John chapter 14:28 neither, because the Christian argues from silence and is arguing something they have yet to prove. Christians cannot prove that Jesus has 2 natures, they can never get a single quote from the lips of Jesus saying I am man and Divine, that I have 2 natures and I gave one up and took on the man nature, this is non-existent, so therefore the response is from silence provided with no proof or a solid basis.

1-The fact is the Bible shows that the Father is greater than Jesus in essence, the Father is all-knowing and Jesus is not.

2-The Father gives Jesus everything from miracle to doctrine.

3-Jesus begs the Father to save him, obviously showing that life and death is controlled by the Father and NOT Jesus.

For all these arguments the Christian will say as man Jesus is not all-knowing, as man Jesus receives things from the Father, however so I will kindly ask the Christian bring this proof from the words of Jesus, they shall never be able to do it, this doctrine is an invention and not something to be found from Jesus.

So therefore in conclusion, John 10:30 proves nothing in support of the divinity of Jesus, it does not show equality, since Jesus made it clear that the Father is greater than him, so therefore Jesus is not equal with the Father.

Jesus is saying He and the Father are Divine. The same essence (Divine). He says the Father and I are one. He says you see me you see the Father. God is one. Perfectly one. No conflict within God. Yet God is 3 persons in one God. Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, 3 persons, all perfectly one.

The 2nd person of the Blessed Trinity, took on a 2nd nature. Human nature. His name He took, Jesus. His human nature is obviously inferior to His divine nature, but because of who He is, His human nature is also perfect. He is like us in His human nature in everything but sin.

Said better than I could say it, If you are interested, catholic.com/encyclopedia/trinity

 

[PluniaZ]

From the context of the entire passage, the people Jesus was speaking to understood him perfectly well that He was claiming to be God:

And it was the feast of the dedication at Jerusalem: and it was winter.
23 And Jesus walked in the temple, in Solomon’s porch.
24 The Jews therefore came round about him, and said to him: How long dost thou hold our souls in suspense? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly.
25 Jesus answered them: I speak to you, and you believe not: the works that I do in the name of my Father, they give testimony of me.
26 But you do not believe, because you are not of my sheep.
27 My sheep hear my voice: and I know them, and they follow me.
28 And I give them life everlasting; and they shall not perish for ever, and no man shall pluck them out of my hand.
29 That which my Father hath given me, is greater than all: and no one can snatch them out of the hand of my Father.
30 I and the Father are one.
31 The Jews then took up stones to stone him.
32 Jesus answered them: Many good works I have shewed you from my Father; for which of these works do you stone me?
33 The Jews answered him: For a good work we stone thee not, but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, maketh thyself God.
34 Jesus answered them: Is it not written in your law: I said you are gods?
35 If he called them gods, to whom the word of God was spoken, and the scripture cannot be broken;
36 Do you say of him whom the Father hath sanctified and sent into the world: Thou blasphemest, because I said, I am the Son of God?
37 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.
38 But if I do, though you will not believe me, believe the works: that you may know and believe that the Father is in me, and I in the Father.
39 They sought therefore to take him; and he escaped out of their hands.

biblegateway.com/passage/?search=john+10&version=DRA