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Robert_Sock
Guest
Anyone who loves their life will lose it, while anyone who hates their life in this world will keep it for eternal life.
-John 12:25
-John 12:25
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Della
Guest
What do you mean by literally and figuratively? I’m not being picky here–truly you may simply not have the proper understanding of those terms, so that may be why you are confused/questioning.
Have you read the verse in context or consulted reliable commentaries? I ask because we really can’t help you and will only go around in circles if we don’t have your true dilemma sorted out first.
Have you read the verse in context or consulted reliable commentaries? I ask because we really can’t help you and will only go around in circles if we don’t have your true dilemma sorted out first.
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CountrySteve
Guest
I believe Jesus was talking about our sinful ways and we must hate that to have eternal life
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GEddie
Guest
We certainly are not to hate being alive. Even our LORD grieved when HE faced death.
ICXC NIKA
ICXC NIKA
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fred_conty
Guest
The key word is “lose”. If someone were to understand that as meaning to “kill”, then taking it litterally is incorrect.
If taking “lose” as losing the good life, comfortable life, easy life, sinful life, then it would be literal.
The second key word of “hate” would be treated in the same way.
I M O, it says just what it means if understood properly. Jesus is making a thought provoking statement to make us think about it.
Just a thought.
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Julia_Mae
Guest
No, He didn’t. He was frightened of the manner of His death. The dying itself wasn’t the issue.
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Julia_Mae
Guest
Waiting in line at the grocery store.
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Robert_Sock
Guest
A non-literal translation. There can be figurative explanations of eternal life, like an eternity lasting but a “long time.”
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Gorgias
Guest
Nah, that’s the definition of purgatory – you know that you’re guaranteed to eventually get there, but it might take a while, and it ain’t fun while you’re waiting…
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Robert_Sock
Guest
I believe we live in a miserable and corrupt world that we ought to hate.
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GEddie
Guest
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Della
Guest
What we ought to hate is the corruption, not the world that God made and called “good”. Remeber John 3:16: “God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son…”
In spite of our sin and corruption God loves us. He wants us to love him above everything else and to hate evil, not people, not even ourselves. We are to give our lives completely to God not selfishly hang onto to what we want, when we want it. That is what Jesus means by what he said, not that we are to despise what God has created good.
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Robert_Sock
Guest
For the most part, I like your post. However, I still think we ought to hate this world. Note that God does not call the world good, but very good. I say this because in Judaism, the term “very good” is qualitatively different from good, and it denotes evil. In other words, the world itself is evil.
I have an excerpt from a Jewish encyclopedia that spells this out in detail and I can post it if you or anybody else wishes. It’s an interesting read and one learns the concept of evil in Judaism is quite different from what is present in Catholicism.
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Della
Guest
That does even make any sense. How can something be “very good” mean it is evil? And why are you, a non-theologian, bothering with Jewish encyclopedias? How about reading the words in context. The whole first chapter is about God creating the world, populating it and making it habitable for mankind. However could any of that be “evil”? I would say that if a “definition” flies in the very teeth of the context then you’ve either misunderstood it or it is simply wrong.
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John7
Guest
but 12:23 doesn’t say to hate the world, it says hate your life
neither does it’s parallel passages talk hating the world
For whosoever will save his life shall lose it:
and whosoever will lose his life
for my sake
shall find it. (Mat 16:25, Mk 8.36)
He that loveth his life shall lose it;
and he that hateth his life
in this world
shall keep it unto life eternal (Joh 12:25)
hating your life has to do with
losing your life
losing your life has to do with
the cross
verse is not saying we’re to sit around in a self absorbed bowl of hatred,
but our minds, if we’re Christian, should be focused on Christ.
If we’re focused on Christ and have given our lives to him and his will,
then we have denied ourselves, we have lost ourselves, we do hate ourselves
Then said Jesus unto his disciples,
If any man will come after me,
let him deny himself,
and take up his cross, and follow me. (Mat 16:24)
‘let him deny himsefl’ - like- ‘let him lose himself’ - like- ‘let him hate himself’
same issue in Luke 14,
If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother,
and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea,
and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.
And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me,
cannot be my disciple. (Luk 14:26-27)
our love for Christ, discipleship, and the life of the crossbearing like he did is at issue
not wallowing around in hate
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Robert_Sock
Guest
You sound a bit closed-minded to the fact that there is much that Catholics can learn from our Jewish brothers and sisters. After all, it was our Jewish ancestors that wrote the Book of Genesis. There was always an oral tradition in Judaism that passed down commentary from one generation to the next.
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Della
Guest
As G. K. Chesterton once wrote, “The purpose of an open mind is to close it upon something solid.”
Of course some Jews are going to have contrary commentaries since they do not accept Jesus as the Messiah. Some even go so far as to deny there was ever supposed to be a Messiah. The Jews of Jesus’ own day couldn’t agree among themselves. IOW, there is no clear consensus among them and never has been.
We either believe Christ and the Church he established or we don’t. When it comes to conflicting definitions, I’ll take the Church’s over anyone else’s every time.
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Robert_Sock
Guest
I think this thread got split into two subjects: The first subject having to do with John 12:25, and the other is whether the world is evil. It’s my contention that John 12:25 is to be taken literally and that we live in an evil world. Nowhere do I draw any conclusion, that we live in a evil world, from John 12:25.
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Robert_Sock
Guest
The Holy Bible and religious tradition are often complex in nature. Having two views of the same concept can often shed new light on that concept. Again, the Jews are the real masters in much of the Old Testament.
Note that I don’t see the World-to-Come as being evil.
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