John 16:13

[Zenas]

Matthew 18:15-17 is also meant for them. What do they do then? Where is the central Baptist authority that decides for all of them? Or, is it the lack thereof that has caused all of the fractures in the Baptist world?

Baptists claim to have no central authority, although in a sense they do. I have seen several churches thrown out of their associations or conventions for going too far off the reservation. All Baptists without exception would regard the Matthew 18 passage you cited to be authority possessed by each individual congregation.

 

[po18guy]

Baptists claim to have no central authority, although in a sense they do. I have seen several churches thrown out of their associations or conventions for going too far off the reservation. All Baptists without exception would regard the Matthew 18 passage you cited to be authority possessed by each individual congregation.

Sadly, this has occurred in all denominations.

 

[GratefulFred]

I don’t disagree with what you are saying but how can I approach the Bible, knowing some of it was meant for everyone and some for the apostles only and discern the difference?

By way of example, I know thousands of Baptists and every one of them would maintain that John 16:13 was meant for all Christians. In fact the common wisdom is that all the promises of the Bible can be claimed by them. If this is not the case, how can you know the difference?

Perhaps an example from my military background might help. We have 9 enlisted ranks and 10 officer ranks in each branch of the military. We have a Department of Defense over the military and a President over the DOD.

We are made aware of the authority vested at different rank levels. BUT, an Enlisted Rank 3, aware of higher authority, also realizes he or she does not have the same authority enlisted rank 9 or officer rank 1 thru 10.

We FOLLOW orders. We have no authority to do the mission anyway we personally see fit. That would be chaos.

So who actually did Christ put in charge? Authority is handed down. It is not pulled down by subordinates not matter how well meaning they may be.

To come to a better answer, one should consider the several verses dealing with authority together and not try to pick one as being superior to the others. And as Jesus was speaking to PEOPLE, which Baptist was in that group back then?

 

[Zenas]

You have given some interesting answers and I can’t say that I disagree (except for animalis and he is too far above me to understand what he is saying). However, no one has really answered my question. Therefore, I will state it another way:

Suppose I am reading along in the Bible. Let’s say it is John 16; or John 3; or Matthew 18. It doesn’t matter. Most of what we read, we can claim it for ourselves but some of it is meant for only the apostles or their successors. How do you know the difference? It’s not highlighted or anything like that. It seems like it would be helpful to have a Catholic bible with material written for only the apostles in blue letters.

 

[JamesTheJust]

You have given some interesting answers and I can’t say that I disagree (except for animalis and he is too far above me to understand what he is saying). However, no one has really answered my question. Therefore, I will state it another way:

Suppose I am reading along in the Bible. Let’s say it is John 16; or John 3; or Matthew 18. It doesn’t matter. Most of what we read, we can claim it for ourselves but some of it is meant for only the apostles or their successors. How do you know the difference? It’s not highlighted or anything like that. It seems like it would be helpful to have a Catholic bible with material written for only the apostles in blue letters.

Whom the statement was directed can be determined using the context and logic.

 

[Abu]

Zenas #24
Most of what we read, we can claim it for ourselves but some of it is meant for only the apostles or their successors. How do you know the difference?

Simple, really.

Listen to the Church which Christ founded, which gave us the Sacred Scriptures, no more no less, and interprets them. Post 16 identifies the essentials. There is the hierarchy and the laity.

As instituted by Christ, She teaches, sanctifies and governs. Her Catechism of the Catholic Church conveys the truths needed for salvation.

 

[Augustine3]

Among Evangelicals this verse is uniformly regarded as proof that the Holy Spirit leads us in interpreting the truths of the Bible. This would appear to be a flawed interpretation to me because there are so many different views of the meaning of scripture. They can’t all be right.

Furthermore, this is part of Jesus’ Upper Room Discourse at which only the 11 faithful disciples were present (so far as we know). So He was talking to these 11 men.

In view of this, what is the Catholic understanding of John 16:13? Is it a promise to all of us or only to the disciples?

If it is only to the disciples, what are we to make of other parts of the Upper Room Discourse? For example, John 15:12: “This is My commandment, that you love one another, just as I have loved you." Doesn’t this have universal application? And if it does, why doesn’t John 16:13 have the same universal application? Jesus made both statements to the same group of men within a few minutes of each other.

Reading in context, who was Jesus speaking to? Was it to all his followers or just the apostles? Jesus affirmed the Holy Spirit would remind the apostles exclusively. Are you a successor to the apostles? No. Am I? No. Are the Bishops? Yes.

Follow the Bishops, they hold the office of the apostles and the sure guidance of the Holy Spirit. You and I don’t, this is scriptural

God bless.

 

[TimothyH]

Just read whether the quote was directed at the Apostles or the general population. If it’s the latter, it’s meant for all. If it’s the former, it’s not.

This is exactly correct. We need to pay attention to whom Jesus is speaking with.

John 16:13 was spoken to the twelve Apostles in the upper room at the last supper, when Jesus instituted the priesthood and gave us the Mass. The entire discourse starts way back at the beginning of Chapter 13 - all you have to do is read back.

Sometimes Jesus speaks to gentiles. Other times he speaks to Jews. Sometimes he speaks to the greater body of disciples. Sometimes he speaks to the pharisees - the same people who claim that Jesus words to the Apostles were meant for them would never say that Jesus words to the pharisees were meant for them.

Sometimes it is a bit difficult to discern whom Jesus is speaking with. For example, John never uses the word “Apostle” but only the word “disciple”. We know however, that only the 12 Apostles were with Jesus at the last supper.

-Tim-

 

[pablope]

You have given some interesting answers and I can’t say that I disagree (except for animalis and he is too far above me to understand what he is saying). However, no one has really answered my question. Therefore, I will state it another way:

Suppose I am reading along in the Bible. Let’s say it is John 16; or John 3; or Matthew 18. It doesn’t matter. Most of what we read, we can claim it for ourselves but some of it is meant for only the apostles or their successors. How do you know the difference? It’s not highlighted or anything like that. It seems like it would be helpful to have a Catholic bible with material written for only the apostles in blue letters.

You just highlighted the reason why…someone should not read the Bible without proper guidance from the Church that selected the writings in the first place.

That is why the Bible should be read through the lens of Sacred Tradition.

Look at this passage from 1john4:

6 We are from God, and whoever knows God listens to us; but whoever is not from God does not listen to us. This is how we recognize the Spirit[a] of truth and the spirit of falsehood.

Who is the “us” John is referring to here? And how would this passage be applied today? Is it every Christian for himself or just the apostles and those who they selected to succeed them…and so forth?

 

[Nita]

If it is only to the disciples, what are we to make of other parts of the Upper Room Discourse? For example, John 15:12: “This is My commandment, that you love one another, just as I have loved you." Doesn’t this have universal application? And if it does, why doesn’t John 16:13 have the same universal application? Jesus made both statements to the same group of men within a few minutes of each other.

I don’t think it does have universal application. Jesus is instructing His “chosen” and “appointed” apostles that they must take love of neighbor a step farther than the ordinary believer. They are to love as He did – specifically, to love mankind so much that they will devote their lives on earth to preaching/teaching God’s truth and be willing to die for the salvation of souls. And note, it’s not just a suggestion, it’s a command.
God does not universally call us all to become priests, willing to accept even martyrdom out of love for souls.
15:11 These things I have spoken to you, that my joy may be in you, and that your joy may be full. 15:12 "This is my commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you. 15:13 Greater love has no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends. 15:14 You are my friends if you do what I command you. 15:15 No longer do I call you servants, for the servant does not know what his master is doing; but I have called you friends, for all that I have heard from my Father I have made known to you. 15:16 You did not choose me, but **I chose you and appointed you **that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should abide; so that whatever you ask the Father in my name, he may give it to you.

The universal command (that is, to the public/laity) is to love our neighbor as ourself. ( Mt. 19:19; 22:39; Mk 12:31; Luke 10:27-28 )Mt. 19:16 And behold, one came up to him, saying, “Teacher, what good deed must I do, to have eternal life?” And He said to him “… If you would enter life, keep the commandments.” He said to him, “Which?” And Jesus said, “…You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”