John 2:4 - Is Jesus being harsh to his Mother?

[puzzleannie]

I am still waiting for (name removed by moderator)ut on my question.
If my son, husband, father or brother came up to me today, in 2008, and addressed me as “Woman” as in “Woman, what’s for supper?” or “Woman, so I have any clean shirts?” or “Woman, what movie should we see tonight.” or even “Woman, where is thy faith?” Why on earth would I take offense at that form of address? It is a mystery to me why question in OP should even be posed. Why is the word “woman” as a description or form of address considered offensive, denigrating, harsh or insulting?

 

[Agnes_Ainsworth]

Why Jesus did not call his Mother as Mother, but he just called her Woman in this verse…

The Roman Catholic Church is the living Bible and the experience of two thousand years of the Church is a living proof of the correct interpretation of the Cana story, namely that Mary intercedes to Jesus on behalf of needy people and because He responded by fulfilling Her request, even though His time had not yet come, He will always do the same for all her children who use her as a channel to Him. Likewise, Jesus’ use of “Woman” from the Cross is to identify Mary as the Spiritual Mother of all mankind. The dual use of the “Woman” identifies Mary as the “Woman” of Genesis 3:15 and Revelation 12:1.

The world is full of evidence of these truths and because they are being widely challenged both within the Church and outside it, Heaven is flooding the earth with many proofs and the Church will respond by a further Marian Dogma to authenticate them.

 

[Huiou_Theou]

Hmmm … interesting – I’ve been thinking about this for about an hour or so, praying on it – reading through various scriptures, and the whole thing strikes me as odd.

How many examples does anyone else remeber in the bible about anyone addressing their mother as “mother”, “mom”, or “woman” in the bible…

I can only remember two in the whole bible, with all the dialogue, that of 2Kings 2:19 where Bathsheba is spoken of as “mother of me” before she had said anything good or ill, but only announced that she had a request.

In fact, the only other place I can remember someone being adressed as “mother” is the awkward passage in Jerimiah 15:10 – and that may be an apostrophe/soliloque and not an actual conversation with his mother who mau not be alive at this time (don’t know).

In fact, I find no one addressed as “Woman” in the entire old testament to their face (at least in the KJV, with some cross checking in Greek) – but in the New Testament Jesus uses it several times to several different women:

John 4:21, 8:10 & Matthew 15:28
Luke 13:12.

Also, Peter uses it once in denial, and I doubt he was trying to pick a fight: Luke 22:57
The angels use this title of mary of Magdela, John 20:13 as does Jesus too.

So, the use of the word as an address appears to be more of a first century phenomina, I wonder why. I also wonder if it has theological implications for these other women…

 

[Agnes_Ainsworth]

To Huiou Theou

Well, what do you think? I don’t think Jesus was being disrespectful to these other women. The 1 Kings 2:20 reference to King Solomon’s reverence and comment to his mother Bathsheba; “make your request for I will not refuse you” has been speculated as a prefiguring of Jesus’ respect for His mother Mary.

My whole point about this thread is the importance of the lived Church’s experience which is called Tradition, in evaluating the meaning of Scripture. The world is full of writings referring to Our Lady’s intercession on behalf of her children as a Spiritual Mother. Millions of miracles, comforts, graces and healings are recorded due to her intercession over two thousand years and in these days are multiplying as she beseeches her children to “do as Jesus tells you”, her continual plea as we live through the final battle of the “Woman” crushing the head of the serpent (satan).

The common prayer attributed to St Bernard of Clairvaux, called “The Memorare”, expresses it beautifully:

Remember, O most gracious virgin Mary, that never was it known that anyone who fled to Thy protection, implored Thy help or sought Thy intercession, was left unaided etc

 

[Huiou_Theou]

To Agnes, the good and strong.

No, I don’t think it is disrespectful – but mostly because of the second account of Luke (eg: 13:10). That woman has done nothing to Jesus at all, nor is she a Samaritan or verbal combatant, but merely someone who’s neck was damaged at some point in her life.
She was in the synagogue, so she could not have been an outcast or crazy – like some might accuse the “woman” at the well who was getting water in the heat of the day, rather than in the morning.
Jesus not only defends the synagogue woman in the immediate following text, but even ascribes to her, the praiseworthy title “daughter of Abraham” who is bound by the accuser – implying her innocence to some degree, and even more in her faith. It also calls to mind the bondage of Abraham himself in sheol, as he awaits the opening of heaven.

And before St. Bernard polished the prayer you mention, I think it similar to the “sub tuum” which expresses the basic sentiment in probably the earliest form I have seen.

The tradition of the church in identifying Mary with Eve / Woman, along with the church fathers is not something (I a Catholic) will deny – but I note it grew organically based on the many observations of the early church fathers based on the significance of Eve’s disobedience – and Mary’s obedience – and that is not to say that the depth of scripture is exhausted on the point.

However, I have never noticed before how this word is used in some of the most highly charged scriptural accounts throughout the new testament involving women – not just Mary.
The majority of the women he appears to be correcting, or calling everyones attention to them for some reason. Nor have I yet found a term of endearment like “mom” used in the texts – as opposed to “abba” for Father – but only the address “woman” or the very rare “my mother”.

To your theological comment about the seed, I would add a little teaser – as I think the saying that women had seed is very rare – it does occur in at least one other place besides Eve, with respect to Rebekka (Isaacs? wife) when her family blesses her when she is engaged to marry him – and being as she was the singular mother of all the Jews to follow, the blessing is strikingly appropriate for she is certainly a mother of Jesus. Genesis 25:11.
The specific blessing of her by her family is in the OT somewhere, but for some reason I can’t remember exactly where – it doesn’t appear to be in Genesis… I’ll have to search later, unless someone else finds it fist…

God bless you.