John 2:4

[jerome_ky]

Prior to becoming Catholic, this was one verse I knew well, because it “proved” how Jesus thought of his mother as an ordinary woman. The King James has it:

“Jesus saith unto her, Woman, what have I to do with thee? mine hour is not yet come.”

The Revised Standard Edition (Second Catholic Edition), published by Ignatius Press, has a similar rendering:

"And Jesus said to her, “O woman, what have you to do with me? My hour has not yet come.”

Other Catholic versions, however, have it differently, and it changes the whole meaning:

“And Jesus saith to her: Woman, what is that to me and to thee? my hour is not yet come.” (Douay-Rheims)

"(And) Jesus said to her, “Woman, how does your concern affect me? My hour has not yet come.” (New American Bible)

What I’d like to know is which of the meanings is closest to the original Greek- “What have you (woman) to do with me?” or “What has this (lack of wine) got to do with me?” or even “What has this (winelessness) got to do with me and with you?”

Obviously a literal translation would go a long way toward debating this with Protestants who love showing off their knowledge of Greek via their Strong’s Concordance.

 

[Nathan_Wagar]

I’m not sure it would help either way, since my understanding is that it is an idiomatic Hebrew expression, so knowing the Greek doesn’t really solve the issue. More important is to realize that one can probably see it must be some sort of idiomatic expression anyway, since Mary does not take offense, and Jesus ends up doing exactly what she asked. Getting caught up in the Greek sometimes ignores the larger significance, which is that Mary essentially kickstarted Jesus’ ministry. However, literally the Greek reads: “And says to her the Jesus; what to me and to you, woman? Not yet is come the hour of me.”

This makes quite a bit more sense that he is including Mary in things, especially when you look at this passage in the larger theme of creation John has in mind in these first two chapters, as well as the tie in with Genesis 3:15. The new Adam and Eve contrasted with the Old. Hope this helps.

 

[Nita]

Prior to becoming Catholic, this was one verse I knew well, because it “proved” how Jesus thought of his mother as an ordinary woman. The King James has it:

“Jesus saith unto her, Woman, what have I to do with thee? mine hour is not yet come.”

The Revised Standard Edition (Second Catholic Edition), published by Ignatius Press, has a similar rendering:

"And Jesus said to her, “O woman, what have you to do with me? My hour has not yet come.”

Other Catholic versions, however, have it differently, and it changes the whole meaning:

“And Jesus saith to her: Woman, what is that to me and to thee? my hour is not yet come.” (Douay-Rheims)

"(And) Jesus said to her, “Woman, how does your concern affect me? My hour has not yet come.” (New American Bible)

What I’d like to know is which of the meanings is closest to the original Greek- “What have you (woman) to do with me?” or “What has this (lack of wine) got to do with me?” or even “What has this (winelessness) got to do with me and with you?”

Obviously a literal translation would go a long way toward debating this with Protestants who love showing off their knowledge of Greek via their Strong’s Concordance.

The Douay Rheims follows the Greek.

I have the Greek NT on software and also a hard cover Greek Interlinear Bible. Here is the English as it appears directly underneath the Greek words in the hardcover Bible:

2:4 and says to her - Jesus, what to me and to you, woman?
(The dash between her and Jesus is where there was an untranslated word in the hardcover. In the software, that word is translated as “the”. The Greek always seems to have a lot more “the’s” and “and’s” than we use in English.)

The Greek word translated “and” (to me and to you) is kai. The Greek dictionary entry for that word gives the following possible definitions: and, also, but, even; that is, namely.
“with” is not shown as a definition of for “kai”.

Altho I use the RSV translation most of the time, I have found that when I go to check out a passage in the Greek (for whatever reason), almost always the Douay has the most literal translation.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

John 2:3
When the wine ran short, the mother of Jesus said to him, “They have no wine.”
4
4 (And) Jesus said to her,** “Woman, how does your concern affect me? My hour has not yet come.” **5
His mother said to the servers, “Do whatever he tells you.”

Jesus uses a common Hebrew idium speech that places a title or true identity of the person being revealed. Jesus dignifies his Mother Mary with the title the first Adam called Eve “Woman” mother of all the liviing. Mary referencing the wine of the old covenant “they have no life”, Jesus hour had not come yet to give life because the Greeks have not come to seek him out, when Jesus hour begins in his will to give the best new wine, in the new and everlasting covenant which gives eternal life to both Jew and Greek “all the world” as one.

At Mary’s intercession, Jesus obeys the fourth commandment to honor your father and mother by performing his first public miracle by changing the murky water into the best tasting wine of the wedding feast, which prefigures Jesus and his bride the Church in the wedding feast of the lamb when Jesus will give his bride to eat his body, and drink his blood in order to have eternal life in the new (best wine for last) covenant.

Below are some parallels to this biblical hebrew idium speech, when Jesus confronts demons who quickly recognize Jesus with the title “Son of God”, Son of the Most High". Again the speech is not a rebuke but a diginified response of respect to the title Mary possesses and Jesus possesses in front of the demoniacs.

Here is a parallel scripture; Luke 8:28
When he saw Jesus, he cried out and fell down before him; in a loud voice he shouted, "What have you to do with me, Jesus, son of the Most High God? I beg you, do not torment me!"

Mark 5:6
Catching sight of Jesus from a distance, he ran up and prostrated himself before him,
7
crying out in a loud voice, "**What have you to do with me, 3 Jesus, Son of the Most High God? **

Mark 1:23
11 In their synagogue was a man with an unclean spirit;
24
12 he cried out,** “What have you to do with us, 13 Jesus of Nazareth? Have you come to destroy us? I know who you are–the Holy One of God!” **

Mary’s last words in Sacred Scripture is to all of us who are Jesus disciples “Do what ever he tells you”.

 

[Nita]

I recall hearing a talk by Scot Hahn about the John 2:4 passage. He noted that the only other times that phrase - to me/us and to thee - occurs in Scripture is when the demons ask it of Jesus – Mt. 8:29; Mk 1:24 and 5:7; Luke 4:34 and 8:28. (I presume he did a thorough search of the Greek.)

The point he noted, was that the one posing the question recognized that the other party had some sort of authority or influence over them. When the demons ask that question of Jesus, it is because they know He has authority over them. Thus, when Jesus asks that question of Mary, it is a manifestation to us of her influence with Jesus.

 

[po18guy]

Prior to becoming Catholic, this was one verse I knew well, because it “proved” how Jesus thought of his mother as an ordinary woman. The King James has it:

“Jesus saith unto her, Woman, what have I to do with thee? mine hour is not yet come.”

The Revised Standard Edition (Second Catholic Edition), published by Ignatius Press, has a similar rendering:

"And Jesus said to her, “O woman, what have you to do with me? My hour has not yet come.”

Other Catholic versions, however, have it differently, and it changes the whole meaning:

“And Jesus saith to her: Woman, what is that to me and to thee? my hour is not yet come.” (Douay-Rheims)

"(And) Jesus said to her, “Woman, how does your concern affect me? My hour has not yet come.” (New American Bible)

What I’d like to know is which of the meanings is closest to the original Greek- “What have you (woman) to do with me?” or “What has this (lack of wine) got to do with me?” or even “What has this (winelessness) got to do with me and with you?”

Obviously a literal translation would go a long way toward debating this with Protestants who love showing off their knowledge of Greek via their Strong’s Concordance.

They reveal primarily only what good protestants they are. Jesus did not speak Greek, so they have settled on a translation which appeals to them and supports a doctrine that not even Luther, father of all protestants, believed. Luther believed in the perpetual virginity of Mary. Ask them why they believe some of what Luther did, while discarding the remainder. It is inconsistent and does not make sense.

The closest language to the ancient Hebrew is probably Syriac. There are some users who have that translation, but it may be a re-translation from the Latin Vulgate into Syriac. Since protestantism is guided by the ego, they search for a translation which suits them.

Again, modern protestants trip over the words used, and seem to almost completely ignore the actions and meaning of the event. Jesus, Who knows everything, also knew that the wine had run out. He had the power to cause the creation of wine, but waited until His mother spoke with Him about it. Despite the defects in all non-Aramaic translations, see how He then honors and obeys His mother? But, how did Mary know that her Son was the solution to this? How did she know that He alone would restore the joy to the feast? What had she seen, or what had been revealed to her about His miraculous abilities in this specific situation? Her words to the servants are the best advice in all of scripture: “Do whatever He tells you”. In the manner of John the Baptist, at this point Mary began to decrease and Jesus began to increase. I will do some searching, but it occurs to me that this may be Mary’s last recorded words.

If Mary was just a “vessel”, as they likely claim, was John the Baptist only a convenient pair of hands for baptizing? Both Mary and John are closely linked and fulfill prophecy, just as Jesus is the ultimate fulfillment of prophecy. Vessels do not fulfill prophecy.

 

[jerome_ky]

…But, how did Mary know that her Son was the solution to this? How did she know that He alone would restore the joy to the feast? What had she seen, or what had been revealed to her about His miraculous abilities in this specific situation?..

As a son of a Jewish mother, I know what it’s like when mom knows you have a talent. She makes you perform for company.

/JOKE

 

[ProVobis]

4 καὶ λέγει αὐτῇ ὁ Ἰησοῦς: τί ἐμοὶ καὶ σοί, γύναι; οὔπω ἥκει ἡ ὥρα μου.

4 Et dicit ei Jesus : Quid mihi et tibi est, mulier? nondum venit hora mea.

4 And Jesus says to her: Woman, what is that to me and to you? My hour is not yet come.

But I’ll go with this one:

{2:4} And Jesus said to her: “What is that to me and to you, woman? My hour has not yet arrived.”

 

[Benadam]

I recall hearing a talk by Scot Hahn about the John 2:4 passage. He noted that the only other times that phrase - to me/us and to thee - occurs in Scripture is when the demons ask it of Jesus – Mt. 8:29; Mk 1:24 and 5:7; Luke 4:34 and 8:28. (I presume he did a thorough search of the Greek.)

The point he noted, was that the one posing the question recognized that the other party had some sort of authority or influence over them. When the demons ask that question of Jesus, it is because they know He has authority over them. Thus, when Jesus asks that question of Mary, it is a manifestation to us of her influence with Jesus.

Nita, if I’m misunderstanding something please correct me but doesn’t this verse qualify?

Mathew Ch. 17

1. But that we may not scandalize them, go to the sea, and cast in a hook: and that fish which shall first come up, take: and when thou hast opened its mouth, thou shalt find a stater: take that, and give it to them for me and thee.

 

[po18guy]

As a son of a Jewish mother, I know what it’s like when mom knows you have a talent. She makes you perform for company.

/JOKE

The wedding feast at Cana remains one of the most profound mysteries of our faith. The intensity of their brief interaction speaks volumes about revelation and relationship.

Well, Rosalyn Moss tells what Mary, the ultimate Jewish mother, could have said to her neighbors: “Oh, do I have the Son for you!”

 

[kepha1]

Great video on Mary:

 

[po18guy]

For “Latinos”, This site has the Latin Vulgate and D-R side by side:

“And Jesus saith to her: Woman, what is that to me and to thee? My hour is not yet come.”

“et dicit ei Iesus quid mihi et tibi est mulier nondum venit hora mea”