John 20:19 - Who was actually present?

[joshua_b]

John 20:19-23 shows Jesus comissioning the priesthood. Tradition tells us that it was the Apostles in the upper room, but every translation I have read says “disciples”. Some translations use the words “THE disciples”, which gives implication to it being the remaining 11.

Any apologetic response that would sufficiently qualify the disciples locked away to be the Apostles, to the exclusion of any other disciples?

 

[po18guy]

Well the only reference I can see from scripture is Luke 24:33-49, in which the two on the road to Emmaus returned and found the twelve gathered in the upper room - along with those staying with them. Our Lord told them to remain in Jerusalem until they received the Holy Spirit. I don’t know what the tradition of the Church teaches here.

 

[thistle]

John 20:19-23 shows Jesus comissioning the priesthood. Tradition tells us that it was the Apostles in the upper room, but every translation I have read says “disciples”. Some translations use the words “THE disciples”, which gives implication to it being the remaining 11.

Any apologetic response that would sufficiently qualify the disciples locked away to be the Apostles, to the exclusion of any other disciples?

Its pretty obvious that the disciples are the Apostles. I have never heard of anyone thinking that any mention of the disciples means anything other than the Apostles.

D-R Bible:

John 20:19-25

19 Now when it was late that same day, the first of the week, and the doors were shut, where the disciples were gathered together for fear of the Jews: Jesus came and stood in the midst, and said to them; Peace be to you.

20 And when he had said this, he shewed them his hands, and his side. The disciples, therefore, were glad, when they saw the Lord.

21 He said therefore to them again; Peace be to you. As the Father hath sent me, I also send you.

22 When he had said this, he breathed on them, and he said to them: Receive ye the Holy Ghost:

23 *Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them: and whose you shall retain, they are retained.

24 Now Thomas, one of the twelve, who is called Didymus, was not with them when Jesus came.

25 The other disciples, therefore, said to him; We have seen the Lord. But he said to them; Unless I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the place of the nails, and put my hand into his side, I will not believe.

 

[po18guy]

Its pretty obvious that the disciples are the Apostles. I have never heard of anyone thinking that any mention of the disciples means anything other than the Apostles.

Luke seems to have the clues, but even his Gospel is not competely clear:

Luke 6:13
Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition (DRA)
13 And when day was come, he called unto him his disciples; and he chose twelve of them (whom also he named apostles):

Luke 24:33
Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition (DRA)
33 And rising up, the same hour, they went back to Jerusalem: and they found the eleven gathered together, and those that were staying with them,

That is why it would be good to know what is in tradition regarding this.

 

[joshua_b]

Its pretty obvious that the disciples are the Apostles. I have never heard of anyone thinking that any mention of the disciples means anything other than the Apostles.

D-R Bible:

John 20:19-25

19 Now when it was late that same day, the first of the week, and the doors were shut, where the disciples were gathered together for fear of the Jews: Jesus came and stood in the midst, and said to them; Peace be to you.

20 And when he had said this, he shewed them his hands, and his side. The disciples, therefore, were glad, when they saw the Lord.

21 He said therefore to them again; Peace be to you. As the Father hath sent me, I also send you.

22 When he had said this, he breathed on them, and he said to them: Receive ye the Holy Ghost:

23 *Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them: and whose you shall retain, they are retained.

24 Now Thomas, one of the twelve, who is called Didymus, was not with them when Jesus came.

25 The other disciples, therefore, said to him; We have seen the Lord. But he said to them; Unless I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the place of the nails, and put my hand into his side, I will not believe.

It is obvious that the Apostles were present, and I have never heard any sane person argue otherwise. It is not quite so obvious, based on the text alone, that the Apostles were the ONLY ones present.

Verse 21 identifies Thomas as one of the twelve, of course, but that is simply a descriptor, and does not exclude the possibility that there were others present. It could even be argued that the fact he is identified as such proves there were others in addition to the apostles present, otherwise there would be no need to point out that he was one of the 12.

 

[joshua_b]

Luke seems to have the clues, but even his Gospel is not competely clear:

Luke 6:13
Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition (DRA)
13 And when day was come, he called unto him his disciples; and he chose twelve of them (whom also he named apostles):

Luke 24:33
Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition (DRA)
33 And rising up, the same hour, they went back to Jerusalem: and they found the eleven gathered together, and those that were staying with them,

That is why it would be good to know what is in tradition regarding this.

Luke seems even more explicit about this. We know that Peter “went home” per verse 12. On the road to Emmaus, we know there were “two of them”, and Jesus. Verse 18 says that one of “the two” was Cleopas, who was definitely NOT one of the apostles. We know that the second was not an apostle either because verse 33 tells us that “they rose that same hour and returned to Jerusalem. And they found the eleven and those who were with them gathered together,”.

The verbage up to this point is pretty explicit that there are others present. At verse 35, the two (Cleopas and ‘other’) are telling the 11 and whoever else is there what had happened. At verse 36 they (apostles + others) are discussing these things when Jesus appears.

 

[thistle]

It is obvious that the Apostles were present, and I have never heard any sane person argue otherwise. It is not quite so obvious, based on the text alone, that the Apostles were the ONLY ones present.

Verse 21 identifies Thomas as one of the twelve, of course, but that is simply a descriptor, and does not exclude the possibility that there were others present. It could even be argued that** the fact he is identified as such proves there were others in addition to the apostles present**, otherwise there would be no need to point out that he was one of the 12.

That is a speculative leap and is baseless.

 

[joshua_b]

That is a speculative leap and is baseless.

I absolutely concede that it is speculative, but given the reading of the text (apart from Sacred Tradition and Magisterial Teaching) so is the statement that only the Apostles were present.

I fail to see how it can be dismissed as “baseless”, even after I have taken great care to directly cite the passages that form the base from which I ask the question. Your emphasis, Thistle, is on the wrong phrase. My emphasis would have been placed on “It could be argued”.

I have combed through all of the verses in the Gospel that I know of describing this very significant event, and I have yet to find anything that definitively shows the Apostles to be the only ones that were present.

C’mon guys, help me out. What am I missing here?

 

[thistle]

I absolutely concede that it is speculative, but given the reading of the text (apart from Sacred Tradition and Magisterial Teaching) so is the statement that only the Apostles were present.

I fail to see how it can be dismissed as “baseless”, even after I have taken great care to directly cite the passages that form the base from which I ask the question. Your emphasis, Thistle, is on the wrong phrase. My emphasis would have been placed on “It could be argued”.

I have combed through all of the verses in the Gospel that I know of describing this very significant event, and I have yet to find anything that definitively shows the Apostles to be the only ones that were present.

C’mon guys, help me out. What am I missing here?

You are the first person EVER that I have heard of who seems to think there were more than the Apostles when Jesus appeared in the room after he rose. I haven’t heard or read anything from scholars, theologians, the clergy, the Church Fathers or whoever with the same view as you.

 

[jcrichton]

Well the only reference I can see from scripture is Luke 24:33-49, in which the two on the road to Emmaus returned and found the twelve gathered in the upper room - along with those staying with them. Our Lord told them to remain in Jerusalem until they received the Holy Spirit. I don’t know what the tradition of the Church teaches here.

…we have to take into consideration what is actually taking place… Jesus generally gathers with the twelve as His inner cirlce… some women and some other disciples do join them from time to time… but it is understood from Scriptures that the twelve are seen/known as Jesus’ disciples (St. Matthew 10:1, 2, 5; 11:1; 19:28; 20:17; 26:20, 47; St. Mark 3:14, 16; ) … these as having a special intimate relationship within His inner circle; the scene begins at the last supper (St. Matthew 26:20); following the last supper Jesus was arrested and put to death… most of His disciples were in fleing from the persecution that began… it is logical that the inner circle disciples would gather together even during these moments of fright and desperation… and, as was stated before, those not of the inner circle did seek them out (i.e.: Mary and the disciples from Emmaus) as the Eleven would be the ones most trusted by the faithful who would seek reorientation and assurance that all had not been for nought…

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[joshua_b]

You are the first person EVER that I have heard of who seems to think there were more than the Apostles when Jesus appeared in the room after he rose. I haven’t heard or read anything from scholars, theologians, the clergy, the Church Fathers or whoever with the same view as you.

You mistakenly assume that just because I pose the question that it is the view I hold.

 

[joshua_b]

…we have to take into consideration what is actually taking place… Jesus generally gathers with the twelve as His inner cirlce… some women and some other disciples do join them from time to time… but it is understood from Scriptures that the twelve are seen/known as Jesus’ disciples (St. Matthew 10:1, 2, 5; 11:1; 19:28; 20:17; 26:20, 47; St. Mark 3:14, 16; ) … these as having a special intimate relationship within His inner circle; the scene begins at the last supper (St. Matthew 26:20); following the last supper Jesus was arrested and put to death… most of His disciples were in fleing from the persecution that began… it is logical that the inner circle disciples would gather together even during these moments of fright and desperation… and, as was stated before, those not of the inner circle did seek them out (i.e.: Mary and the disciples from Emmaus) as the Eleven would be the ones most trusted by the faithful who would seek reorientation and assurance that all had not been for nought…

Maran atha!

Angel

I understand the context and implications (and Church teaching) quite well. Is there an apologetic answer specifically to the Scripture alone however?

I was looking some more yesterday, and DID find that the account in Mark, although not nearly as detailed, seems to speak exclusively to the eleven. It isn’t quite as stong and conclusive an answer as I was hoping to find, but at least it’s something.

Thoughts, anyone?

 

[jcrichton]

I understand the context and implications (and Church teaching) quite well. Is there an apologetic answer specifically to the Scripture alone however?

I was looking some more yesterday, and DID find that the account in Mark, although not nearly as detailed, seems to speak exclusively to the eleven. It isn’t quite as stong and conclusive an answer as I was hoping to find, but at least it’s something.

Thoughts, anyone?

I think that part of the problem we have is that we seek a clear cut reading (proof text) in Scriptures… when we reason in this manner we are, in essence, denying that the Holy Spirit, the other Paraclete, was sent by Jesus to reveal the fullness of Truth and to Guide the Church… but not only in her infancy but throughout time (“I’ll be with you till the end of the world” and “I will send you another Paraclete that will abide with you and in you”); hence, Scriptures do not contain everything that developed during the Ministry of the Church during her infancy (Jesus’ and the Apostles’ Ministry)… the Oral Tradition, which incidentally was employed by both Jesus and the Apostles, continued to be the most direct method of propagating the Faith during these early years…

We can dissect Scriptures beyond reason and would not be fully content at the perceived gaps or missunderstandings that we may find… the fact is that we can determine, from Scriptures, that it is only through the assistance of the Holy Spirit that we can begin to understand the Word of God, which includes those issues that our legalistic and inquiring minds seem to need to know…

The Twelve, Eleven, Twelve again, and, ultimately, Thirteen are the only ones that Scriptures name as Jesus’ direct Apostles… later on, through revelation, we are made aware that other disciples (second, third, forth… generations) are also named as apostles–these latter ones do not constitute Jesus’ inner circle; hence, they are not automatically considered as part of the finite group named Apostles.

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[bmonk]

I’d agree with what several have written: We know the Twelve (Apostles) were there. There may have been others–the disciples were a larger group, and included at least Matthias and Joseph Barsabbas, also called Justus, who were nominated to replace Judas in Acts 1:15-26.

It’s also interesting that 120+ persons were gathered at that time–was it in the Upper Room or not? We don’t know. But it does immediately follow the line that lists the eleven who returned to the Upper Room, as Mary, some other women, and Jesus’ brothers. Were these there at the Last Supper? Some of them? We simply don’t know.

Short answer: The Twelve were there. Others could have been. And that’s really all we can say for sure.

 

[JonathonofOhio]

I’d agree with what several have written: We know the Twelve (Apostles) were there. There may have been others–the disciples were a larger group, and included at least Matthias and Joseph Barsabbas, also called Justus, who were nominated to replace Judas in Acts 1:15-26.

It’s also interesting that 120+ persons were gathered at that time–was it in the Upper Room or not? We don’t know. But it does immediately follow the line that lists the eleven who returned to the Upper Room, as Mary, some other women, and Jesus’ brothers. Were these there at the Last Supper? Some of them? We simply don’t know.

Short answer: The Twelve were there. Others could have been. And that’s really all we can say for sure.

Just read Acts 1. It tells you who was in the upper room. There were definitely others there besides the 11-- Mary was there. It also tells you that it was the Apostles who were given the commandments (instructions). Jesus appeared to them and instructed them for 40 days, but the bible is mostly absent of what all he taught them during this time. Most of the instructions are recorded elsewhere and are passed on through Sacred Tradition. It is definitely quite clear that others were there, but it was only the Apostles that received the instructions that were to be carried out. I’d have to assume that one of the instructions Jesus gave was in regards to apostolic succession since they elected Joseph Barsabbas to replace Judas.

 

[JonathonofOhio]

You are the first person EVER that I have heard of who seems to think there were more than the Apostles when Jesus appeared in the room after he rose. I haven’t heard or read anything from scholars, theologians, the clergy, the Church Fathers or whoever with the same view as you.

Read Acts Chapter 1.

 

[bmonk]

Just read Acts 1. It tells you who was in the upper room. There were definitely others there besides the 11-- Mary was there. It also tells you that it was the Apostles who were given the commandments (instructions). Jesus appeared to them and instructed them for 40 days, but the bible is mostly absent of what all he taught them during this time. Most of the instructions are recorded elsewhere and are passed on through Sacred Tradition. It is definitely quite clear that others were there, but it was only the Apostles that received the instructions that were to be carried out. I’d have to assume that one of the instructions Jesus gave was in regards to apostolic succession since they elected Joseph Barsabbas to replace Judas.

But the gathering in Acts 1 was not the gathering in John 20:19. John 20:19 comes on the evening of Easter, the day Jesus rose from the dead. Acts 1 describes the group after the Ascension, 40 days after Easter, and seems rather larger, with 120 persons present. Would they have all been together as early as Easter Day, since the disciples had been scattered on Holy Thursday-Good Friday night, and in no mood to gather in large groups after that, at least not until the news of the Resurrection had time to spread for several days?

It might be more to the point to cite Luke 24:13-49, when the two disciples journey to Emmaus. It is also on Easter Day (24:13, 21), and we know the two disciples, including one named Cleopas, not among the Eleven, returned to the others in the Upper Room. These included the Eleven, and others with them (24:33)–but we don’t know who those others were, apart from Cleopas.

 

[Julia_Mae]

All Apostles were disciples. All disciples were not Apostles.

Disciple means a follower or a student of and included many people, men and women. The group that followed Jesus included disciples not Apostles as we know from Acts when they have to replace Judas and speak of choosing candidates who have “been with us from the beginning.” (Doing this from memory, so the quote might not be exact.) One thing that is mentioned in the Gospels is that there were women who followed Jesus around, but no women were Apostles. And after all, who did Jesus choose the Apostles from? His disciples.

Who was in the Upper Room? The disciples following Jesus at that time. We don’t know who they were, exactly.

Every reference to disciple in the NT can be found here: blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G3101&t=KJV

 

[JonathonofOhio]

But the gathering in Acts 1 was not the gathering in John 20:19. John 20:19 comes on the evening of Easter, the day Jesus rose from the dead. Acts 1 describes the group after the Ascension, 40 days after Easter, and seems rather larger, with 120 persons present. Would they have all been together as early as Easter Day, since the disciples had been scattered on Holy Thursday-Good Friday night, and in no mood to gather in large groups after that, at least not until the news of the Resurrection had time to spread for several days?

It might be more to the point to cite Luke 24:13-49, when the two disciples journey to Emmaus. It is also on Easter Day (24:13, 21), and we know the two disciples, including one named Cleopas, not among the Eleven, returned to the others in the Upper Room. These included the Eleven, and others with them (24:33)–but we don’t know who those others were, apart from Cleopas.

Acts 1 specifically states that it was 40 days that Jesus spent with them while they were staying in Jerusalem prior to his ascension and AFTER his resurrection. It records his ascension in verse 9-11. Then in verse 12-13 it says they went back where they were staying, and lists the apostles and mentions a few others.

I stand by what I said, as there is no reason to believe that the place mentioned in John is different than the place mentioned in Acts.

 

[JonathonofOhio]

But the gathering in Acts 1 was not the gathering in John 20:19. John 20:19 comes on the evening of Easter, the day Jesus rose from the dead. Acts 1 describes the group after the Ascension, 40 days after Easter, and seems rather larger, with 120 persons present. Would they have all been together as early as Easter Day, since the disciples had been scattered on Holy Thursday-Good Friday night, and in no mood to gather in large groups after that, at least not until the news of the Resurrection had time to spread for several days?

It might be more to the point to cite Luke 24:13-49, when the two disciples journey to Emmaus. It is also on Easter Day (24:13, 21), and we know the two disciples, including one named Cleopas, not among the Eleven, returned to the others in the Upper Room. These included the Eleven, and others with them (24:33)–but we don’t know who those others were, apart from Cleopas.

Acts 1 specifically states that it was 40 days that Jesus spent with them while they were staying in Jerusalem prior to his ascension and AFTER his resurrection. It records his ascension in verse 9-11. Then in verse 12-13 it says they went back where they were staying, and lists the apostles and mentions a few others.

I stand by what I said, as there is no reason to believe that the place mentioned in John is different than the place mentioned in Acts.

I don’t understand why this matters that other were there though. It doesn’t mean that they received the same authority as the Apostles. All Apostles are disciples, but not all disciples are Apostles.