John 20:23 (Again and again)

[ALLFORHIM]

OK I got the answer but I need time to put it into paragraph form and Im tired.

So I will either type it later tonight or tom. morning.

Thanks for being patient Remember patience is a virtue

 

[guanophore]

To me it means what it says. The Apostles were given the power to forgive sins as Jesus himself did. That doesn’t mean that the authority could be passed on to others. It also did not require the Apostles to hear confessions before they forgave.

I am curious how you think this may have happened. How did the Apostles know which people should be forgiven?

How did the early church get so far off track so quick? I mean, when you read what the early fathers’ understanding was, then it is clear there was confession.

Or, do you think all the situations are like that described in the book of Acts with that couple (was it Annas and Sapphira?) who dropped dead for lying to the HS. Do you think Peter retained their sin?

What would be the point of passing on the powers of "office’ through the laying on of hands if there were no real substance to the ordination?

 

[Genesis315]

What would be the point of passing on the powers of "office’ through the laying on of hands if there were no real substance to the ordination?

Great point–that would make it an empty ritual–and many Protestants will tell you that’s part of evil “religion.”

 

[teachccd]

OK I got the answer but I need time to put it into paragraph form and Im tired.

So I will either type it later tonight or tom. morning.

Thanks for being patient Remember patience is a virtue

I’ve been waiting for eight years. One more night will seem like an eternity but heck after eight years and dozens of conversations what’s one more night?? And when it comes to patience; eight years and I’m still waiting for a reasonable Protestant answer. Patience I have. Answers, I do not…God Bless and I’ll be back same bat time same bat station…teachccd

 

[ALLFORHIM]

I’ve been waiting for eight years. One more night will seem like an eternity but heck after eight years and dozens of conversations what’s one more night?? And when it comes to patience; eight years and I’m still waiting for a reasonable Protestant answer. Patience I have. Answers, I do not…God Bless and I’ll be back same bat time same bat station…teachccd

OK here it is–DRUMROLL PLEASE

Im not sure what your criteria for a reasonable protestant answer is but here is what my senior pastor told me:

The Disciples were given the authority to forgive or not forgive sins by Jesus Christ for at least short time. This was given to them to help build the church from its infancy(Acts 2–the infancy of the church). And then the authority was given to the church(body of believers/priesthood of believers/ universal(small c)catholic church)for the soul purpose of church discipline. Ministers/bishpos/priests did not have the power to really actually absolve(that was God’s alone) but they do have the power to declare what has already been done(meaning what Christ did on the cross)

After the church was founded(Pentacost) we dont see the disciples using the power anymore but the church(body of believers) is now using the power. In Acts 15 is where you start to see the church(body of believers) starting to take over .

Now I know this sounds very catholic and that is because we believe we all started out believing the same thing and well we all know things went down hill from there.

Now I know there are many many theological split offs from here, but he asked me if I wanted the long or short version and I said the short version

I hope that was a sound protestant answer for you.

 

[MariaG]

OK here it is–DRUMROLL PLEASE

Im not sure what your criteria for a reasonable protestant answer is but here is what my senior pastor told me:

The Disciples were given the authority to forgive or not forgive sins by Jesus Christ for at least short time. This was given to them to help build the church from its infancy(Acts 2–the infancy of the church). And then the authority was given to the church(body of believers/priesthood of believers/ universal(small c)catholic church)for the soul purpose of church discipline. Ministers/bishpos/priests did not have the power to really actually absolve(that was God’s alone) but they do have the power to declare what has already been done(meaning what Christ did on the cross)

After the church was founded(Pentacost) we dont see the disciples using the power anymore but the church(body of believers) is now using the power. In Acts 15 is where you start to see the church(body of believers) starting to take over .

Now I know this sounds very catholic and that is because we believe we all started out believing the same thing and well we all know things went down hill from there.

Now I know there are many many theological split offs from here, but he asked me if I wanted the long or short version and I said the short version

I hope that was a sound protestant answer for you.

So in other words go and declare that you are forgiven, or go and preach that you are forgiven, with a OSAS flavoring.

Respectfully, my bible says go and forgive, and as my saving grace sermon says, “you either believe the bible cover to cover including the cover or we have nothing else to talk about”. The Catholic interpretation does not have to jump through any hoops to make sense.

Just curious, for those who believe in symbolic communion and that this means go and preach forgiveness, do you believe in a young earth or an old one? Maybe I should start a thread or a poll on this Because I am always fascinated by those who believe in a young earth because the bible says so but believe in a symbolic communiion or that John 20:23 means go and preach forgiveness and not literally go and forgive.

God bless,
Maria

 

[ALLFORHIM]

So in other words go and declare that you are forgiven, or go and preach that you are forgiven, with a OSAS flavoring.

Respectfully, my bible says go and forgive, and as my saving grace sermon says, “you either believe the bible cover to cover including the cover or we have nothing else to talk about”. The Catholic interpretation does not have to jump through any hoops to make sense.

Just curious, for those who believe in symbolic communion and that this means go and preach forgiveness, do you believe in a young earth or an old one? Maybe I should start a thread or a poll on this Because I am always fascinated by those who believe in a young earth because the bible says so but believe in a symbolic communiion or that John 20:23 means go and preach forgiveness and not literally go and forgive.

God bless,
Maria

Hi Maria,
I must not have been clear enough Yes we do believe that the Disciples were given given the power to go and forgive but it was not passed on. It was soley given to them by Christ for a short period of time in the infancy of the church.

I cant really say much more on the topic because Teach just wanted to know what my minister thought so I found out.

The differences between what the CC believes and what we NCC believe is all in the definition of who the church is(at least on this issue)

 

[Pryority7]

Hi Maria,
I must not have been clear enough Yes we do believe that the Disciples were given given the power to go and forgive but it was not passed on. It was soley given to them by Christ for a short period of time in the infancy of the church.

I cant really say much more on the topic because Teach just wanted to know what my minister thought so I found out.

The differences between what the CC believes and what we NCC believe is all in the definition of who the church is(at least on this issue)

Why was the power to forgive sins not passed on? To hold the Church together in it’s infancy? Are you sure that’s it? Doesn’t seem very substantial.

P7

 

[Pixie_Dust]

Hi Maria,
I must not have been clear enough Yes we do believe that the Disciples were given given the power to go and forgive but it was not passed on. It was soley given to them by Christ for a short period of time in the infancy of the church.

Can you or your pastor tell me where the Bible says that this power to forgive/retain sins was not passed on?

 

[ALLFORHIM]

Why was the power to forgive sins not passed on? To hold the Church together in it’s infancy? Are you sure that’s it? Doesn’t seem very substantial.

P7

Im sure there is more but I asked him for the short version

 

[ALLFORHIM]

Can you or your pastor tell me where the Bible says that this power to forgive/retain sins was not passed on?

He says there is nothing in the bible that says it was passed on.
Im speaking for him here because I have heard him say it before.

 

[Pixie_Dust]

He says there is nothing in the bible that says it was passed on.

Mt 28:18-19 And Jesus came and said to them, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

Jn 20:21 - Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me [with full authority on Heaven on Earth], even so I am sending you.”

In order for Jesus’ command to make sense, it has to apply to those who took the place of the apostles. Unless those people had the same authority as was given to the apostles, or how else could they make disciples of all nations?

How could Jesus be with the apostles to the end of the age if the apostles did not live until the end of the age? They were all dead within 60-70 years after Christ. BUT their successors lived and will live through the end of the age. Jesus did NOT say, “Go and write the Scriptures and let everyone read them and decide for themselves what is true.”

Lk 10:16 - “The one who hears you hears me, and the one who rejects you rejects me, and the one who rejects me rejects him who sent me.”

1 Jn 4:6 We are of God. Whoever knows God listens to us; he who is not of God does not listen to us. By this we know the Spirit of truth and the spirit of error.

1 Cor 12:28 And God has appointed in the church first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healing, helping, administrating, and various kinds of tongues.

It doesn’t say that apostles were only appointed for the first century church.

Acts 1:24-26 And they prayed and said, “You, Lord, who know the hearts of all, show which one of these two you have chosen 25 to take the place in this ministry and apostleship from which Judas turned aside to go to his own place.” 26 And they cast lots for them, and the lot fell on Matthias, and he was numbered with the eleven apostles.

I Tim 3:1 - Faithful is the saying, If a man seeketh the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.

If an office holder dies, another should always be appointed to fill the office - that’s how succession works - you can’t have a vacant office. If the President dies, we immediately get a new one sworn in, right?

1 Cor 4:17 - For this reason I have sent to you Timothy, who is my beloved and faithful child in the Lord, and he will remind you of my ways which are in Christ, just as I teach everywhere in every church.

Timothy was sent with the full authority of Paul. Paul passed on authority as a rule of faith - the authority Jesus gave to Paul did not die with Paul, Paul passed it on and expected his successors to do the same.

2 Tm 1:13-14 Retain the standard of sound words which you have heard from me, in the faith and love which are in Christ Jesus. 14 Guard the truth which has been entrusted to you, through the Holy Spirit who dwells in us

2 Tm 2:2 The things which you have heard from me in the presence of many witnesses, entrust these to faithful men who will be able to teach others also.

From Paul, to Timothy, to faithful men, to others also - four generations of apostolic succession in one passage of Scripture.

Ti 1:5-7 This is why I left you in Crete, so that you might put what remained into order, and appoint elders in every town as I directed you

Titus is appointing or ordaining bishops. He has been given authority and is likewise ordaining others with the same authority.

I Tm 1:3 As I urged you when I was going to Macedonia, remain at Ephesus that you may charge certain persons not to teach any different doctrine,

I Tm 4:11-13 Command and teach these things. 12 Let no one despise you for your youth, but set the believers an example in speech, in conduct, in love, in faith, in purity. 13 Until I come, devote yourself to the public reading of Scripture, to exhortation, to teaching.

Timothy and Titus are told to command and teach, to charge others NOT to teach different doctrine, appoint elders, guard the truth, and pass it on to others.

This authority from Paul to the elders or Bishops was passed on by a ceremonial laying on of hands. That’s exactly what is done and has been done for the last 2000 years. It is only through Christ’s authority that the successors have authority.

 

[Randy_Carson]

OK here it is–DRUMROLL PLEASE

Im not sure what your criteria for a reasonable protestant answer is but here is what my senior pastor told me:

The Disciples were given the authority to forgive or not forgive sins by Jesus Christ for at least short time.

I agree that they were given the authority, but where is the “short time” assertion found in scripture?

This was given to them to help build the church from its infancy(Acts 2–the infancy of the church).

No, it was given to them to reconcile men to God. Is there no need for that after the infancy period of the Chruch? I see that miracles were performed as signs to non-believers, but I don’t see how the private confession of sin does a lot to “build up the church.” Where is this in scripture?

And then the authority was given to the church(body of believers/priesthood of believers/ universal(small c)catholic church)for the soul purpose of church discipline.

Where is this in scripture?

Ministers/bishpos/priests did not have the power to really actually absolve(that was God’s alone) but they do have the power to declare what has already been done(meaning what Christ did on the cross)

They had the authority to merely declare what had already been done? How does Christ’s crucifixion give the Apostles any guidance in discerning which sins to forgive and which to retain? Where is this in scripture?

After the church was founded(Pentacost) we dont see the disciples using the power anymore but the church(body of believers) is now using the power. In Acts 15 is where you start to see the church(body of believers) starting to take over .

Is the bible a book of systematic theology? Do you expect to have every rite (for baptism, the Eucharist, Confession, marriage, etc. with the prayers and readings for each all laid out? Where is this in scripture?

It seems to me that in the following verses we do find confession mentioned long after the period described in Acts:

1 John 1:9
9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.

We should confess our sins, and God will forgive us, but do we confess our sins to God alone?

James 5:13-16
13 Is any one of you in trouble? He should pray. Is anyone happy? Let him sing songs of praise. 14 Is any one of you sick? He should call the elders of the church to pray over him and anoint him with oil in the name of the Lord. 15 And the prayer offered in faith will make the sick person well; the Lord will raise him up. If he has sinned, he will be forgiven. 16 Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed.

Here the word of God tells us to call the elders (the Greek word is presbuteroi, or “presbyter”, from which the English word “priest” is derived. So, in this context, James is telling us to send for the priests who will pray over someone who is sick, and if he has sinned, he will be forgiven.

Now I know this sounds very catholic and that is because we believe we all started out believing the same thing and well we all know things went down hill from there.

I would like to encourage you to work your way back up the slippery slope that has claimed so many before you.

 

[Curious]

Thanks for the reply, ALLFORHIM. Your efforts to answer this puzzling question are appreciated.

It wasn’t the Big Stretch I was expecting. It was, in fact, a completely different Big Stretch that I’d never heard of, so it was sort of refreshing.

But come now…the disciples were given the power to forgive *for a short time?? *Exactly what point did this power go away? What evidence is there that this power was only for a short time? And who initially came up with that interpretation I wonder?

I realize that I’m kinda just firing questions out, and I realize that you consulted your pastor and got the short version and may not completely know the entire background behind this answer…but what do you think? And about what Randy posted too?

 

[Pixie_Dust]

Thanks for the reply, ALLFORHIM. Your efforts to answer this puzzling question are appreciated.

It wasn’t the Big Stretch I was expecting. It was, in fact, a completely different Big Stretch that I’d never heard of, so it was sort of refreshing.

But come now…the disciples were given the power to forgive *for a short time?? *Exactly what point did this power go away? What evidence is there that this power was only for a short time? And who initially came up with that interpretation I wonder?

I realize that I’m kinda just firing questions out, and I realize that you consulted your pastor and got the short version and may not completely know the entire background behind this answer…but what do you think? And about what Randy posted too?

Curious, have you heard of the Bible Christian Society? You can order CDs (free, just $1 each for shipping) or download in MP3 format if you’d rather do it that way. Start with the one called “One Church.”

 

[Curious]

Thanks Pixie. I’ve added that to my favorites and I’ll be lookin through it.

 

[NotWorthy]

Not to steer the thread in the wrong direction, but has someone asked, "If Jesus died once for all of our sins (past, present and future sinning), why were the Apostles then given the authority to do what had already been done by His Crucifixion (those sins you forgive, they are forgiven). And, the authority to undo, what had been done by His Crucifixion." (Those sins you retain, they are retained).

Let the stretching begin!!!

 

[ALLFORHIM]

Guys please I told you Im only the messenger(not in those exact words )

I only gave you the short version because if I gave you the long version I would probably mess up the message and be a bad messenger

Im not good at writing out my POV–so I decline to comment due to my inability to get my point across well.

I could cut and paste from the internet on what I agree with but it wouldnt matter anyway because you guys dont really care(if your honest) You would just like to debunk the beliefs. Honestly, I dont feel like wasting my time arguing with all of you.

I originally just answered a question that was asked of me. I never intended to debate it. Sorry

 

[Curious]

Guys please I told you Im only the messenger(not in those exact words )

I only gave you the short version because if I gave you the long version I would probably mess up the message and be a bad messenger

Im not good at writing out my POV–so I decline to comment due to my inability to get my point across well.

I could cut and paste from the internet on what I agree with but it wouldnt matter anyway because you guys dont really care(if your honest) You would just like to debunk the beliefs. Honestly, I dont feel like wasting my time arguing with all of you.

TO THE GALLOWS!!! :knight2:

 

[Pixie_Dust]

Guys please I told you Im only the messenger(not in those exact words )

I only gave you the short version because if I gave you the long version I would probably mess up the message and be a bad messenger.

Im not good at writing out my POV–so I decline to comment due to my inability to get my point across well.

I could cut and paste from the internet on what I agree with but it wouldnt matter anyway because you guys dont really care(if your honest) You would just like to debunk the beliefs. Honestly, I dont feel like wasting my time arguing with all of you.

I originally just answered a question that was asked of me. I never intended to debate it. Sorry

I didn’t mean to debate, my post was intended to show you (and subsequently your pastor if you care to pass along the information) that the Bible does provide evidence of apostolic authority and succession. If you took it as debate, I apologize. It’s my Inner Fundamentalist that enjoys reading/studying Scripture and sharing what I’ve learned.

In all honesty, a year ago I would have been in the “that authority ended with the death of the last apostle” camp right along with you and your pastor. God has brought me a long way in a very short time. I’m still :hypno: reeling from the ride!