B
John 21:11. 153 fish. Father George Rutler comments on the meaning of 153 fish
- Status
1
1cthlctrth
Guest
Fr. Rutler is one of my favorites. His shows are available for free in EWTN’s audio library.
J
JohnR77
Guest
That the Greeks excelled in the mathematical sciences is important to understanding their culture. The believed everything could be reduced to math and geometry. They almost worshiped it.
And it was that culture that John wrote. As Pastor John was addressing their needs, as they are noted in the New Testament.
J
JohnR77
Guest
.
Yes.
You are right.
John was alluding to Archimedes work on Pi.
I would argue that this was the work for which he was most widely known in his day. Its practical need and application placed it above the rest. Some of his other discoveries were more complex, but none of the others were more widely used.
Wiki says he was the greatest mathematician of antiquity.
Pi is known as Archimedes constant, his work being of such importance.
He was the Geeks greatest hero. This was his greatest work.
For John to make an analogy to this work in his Gospel,
it did not require that the average
Joe Dimitrios [ Δημητριος ]
walking down the street would know how Archimedes calculated Pi, although there is a good chance he did. He would only have to recognize the number “153” and how it played such a significant role in Archimedes work.
Do a web search on how Archimedes calculated the value of pi.
Or see the links I found below.
So, there we have it.
Proof positive.
Just by mentioning “153 fish”
we can know with certainty that John knew certainty that his readers would know he was alluding to Archimedes work on Pi.
Please do not spend more than ten seconds on any of these sites below.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archimedes#Mathematics
https://mathscholar.org/2019/02/simple-proofs-archimedes-calculation-of-pi/
https://jacqkrol.x10.mx/content/math/calc-hist-archimedespi.shtml
http://nonagon.org/ExLibris/archimedes-pi
http://physics.weber.edu/carroll/archimedes/pi.htm
http://www.math.utah.edu/~alfeld/Archimedes/Archimedes.html
.
.
Oooh. Do we have a discrepancy here in my assertions ?
Please do understand me clearly.
I am claiming that we can know with a 95% to 99%
certainty that John was alluding to Archimedes work on Pi.
So, the mystery continues.
Last edited:
J
JohnR77
Guest
How do we solve the apparent discrepancy above ?
Let us back up to Ephesus, the city to which John went to write his Gospel.
It was providential that Peter and Paul went to Rome evangelize. In Paul’s case it looks more like God’s doing than Paul’s. By evangelizing the capital of the Empire they were able to get the message out to the largest group of people.
Likewise, John went to Ephesus. Either by God’s foreknowledge, or by John’s foresight that city was chosen for good reason.
It was a city that was growing and becoming of great importance. It was strategically a great advantage to evangelize there. It was one of the most important seaports to the Mediterranean world. By publishing his Gospel here John could get his message, the Gospel, into the rest of the world. Although, Rome ruled the empire, much of it was still more Greek in regards to language and culture than it was Latin.
Ephesus – was a great economic seaport.
(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)
.
.
Another discrepancy ???
If you solve the second discrepancy / mystery,
It will help you to solve the first.
John
Let us back up to Ephesus, the city to which John went to write his Gospel.
It was providential that Peter and Paul went to Rome evangelize. In Paul’s case it looks more like God’s doing than Paul’s. By evangelizing the capital of the Empire they were able to get the message out to the largest group of people.
Likewise, John went to Ephesus. Either by God’s foreknowledge, or by John’s foresight that city was chosen for good reason.
It was a city that was growing and becoming of great importance. It was strategically a great advantage to evangelize there. It was one of the most important seaports to the Mediterranean world. By publishing his Gospel here John could get his message, the Gospel, into the rest of the world. Although, Rome ruled the empire, much of it was still more Greek in regards to language and culture than it was Latin.
Ephesus – was a great economic seaport.
.
(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)
.
.
Another discrepancy ???
If you solve the second discrepancy / mystery,
It will help you to solve the first.
John
Last edited:
B
BartholomewB
Guest
What Archimedes actually concluded about the value of π is that it is less than 3 1/7 but greater than 3 10/71. In decimals,
3 1/7 = 3.142 857 142 …
3 10/71 = 3.140 845 070 …
Neither of those numbers has any connection that I can see with 153.
I opened some, though admittedly not all, of the links in your post #44. I failed to see any mention of the number 153. Could you kindly show me what I missed?
J
JohnR77
Guest
.
You did not miss anything.
I am pointing out that there is a mystery here, a seeming contradiction, but not really.
If the connection between 153 and Archimedes was easily seen as obvious to us today, then we would expect John and his audience to make the connection as well. There would be no mystery.
A mystery always has at least two parts.
The first part is that it is the connection is not always easy to see.
The links above were meant to show this part.
But, yet it was easy for John and the citizens of Ephesus to see it.
The mystery, then is how do we show that the connection was obvious for John and his readers. And in the process it will become obvious to us as well.
I wanted to establish that there is a mystery, as this helps to explain why so many today do not see what John meant. It also helps to explain why the early Church Fathers all disagreed with each other and did not see John’s meaning either, or if they did see John’s intended meaning records to that effect escape us.
I suggest first tackle the easier mystery.
Explain how Ephesus was an important economic center and seaport in light of the map showing its location had been 3 to 5 miles inland.
Solving that mystery will help point us to the right questions to ask in regards to Archimedes.
Asking the right questions is the key to solving mysteries because they get us to look in the right direction.
I want to write more, but it is late.
I hope this helps.
John
Last edited:
B
BartholomewB
Guest
Okay, John, thank you. We have established, then, that there is no numerical or arithmetical connection between π and the number 153. So far, so good. We have finished with math, let us now turn to history and geography.
Archimedes was born in Syracuse and lived there until he went to study under Conon in Alexandria, after which he returned to Syracuse and lived there the rest of his life. As far as anyone knows, he never set foot in Ephesus. What makes you think there might be a connection?
Archimedes was born in Syracuse and lived there until he went to study under Conon in Alexandria, after which he returned to Syracuse and lived there the rest of his life. As far as anyone knows, he never set foot in Ephesus. What makes you think there might be a connection?
B
BartholomewB
Guest
What is so surprising about that? Ephesus stood at what was then the head of navigation on the Cayster River. Many seaports are located at the head of navigation of their respective rivers, for example, in the UK, London (on the Thames) and Bristol (on the Avon).
Duluth is an extreme case:
Situated on the north shore of Lake Superior at the westernmost point of the Great Lakes, Duluth is accessible to oceangoing vessels from the Atlantic Ocean 2,300 miles (3,700 km) away via the Great Lakes Waterway and the Saint Lawrence Seaway.[6]
J
JohnR77
Guest
Well actually that is not the case.
There is A very strong connection between 153 and Archimedes work on pi
B
BartholomewB
Guest
Can the connection be described, at least in outline, in one sentence?
J
JohnR77
Guest
When I said you missed nothing I was referring exclusively to those Web pages that show up On the 1st several pages of a Google search. I was not authenticating or verifying those Web pages as being Precise, accurate, or useful.
B
BartholomewB
Guest
What, then, was your purpose in posting those seven or eight links? You now seem to be saying that they are all, every one of them, irrelevant to your argument.
J
JohnR77
Guest
.
I understand your frustration. But keep in mind this is a complex subject and I am making many different points. I will have to get to my desktop computer to explain more.
Thank you for your patience ,
John
B
BartholomewB
Guest
May I suggest starting off with just one single point. For instance, bearing in mind that Archimedes’ approach was to calculate the perimeter of regular polygons having a very large number of sides, your answer might be to specify which, exactly, of all those polygons is the one that leads to 153? You can leave the detailed calculations for later.
Last edited:
E
EndTimes
Guest
Fr. Rutler is very erudite, inspiring, thought provoking.
Yes… And let’s include intelligent…
Yet, And as with Thomas A and Augustine - never forget: Unlike Jesus? Not perfect.
Pardon my admitted barging in here -
but perhaps there never existed any need for any to dwell further into 153 than 153… ?
For, perhaps, IMHO -
that’s like microscoping the leaf thus failing to See the Forest and everything contained within.
PLUS?
It seems virtually impossible for me to ever separate
what comes across as a genuine overbearing concern for a Teaching concerning FAITH! -
from that which very easily resembles Occultic-Numerology…
I’m frankly surprised that Rutler got into that… but maybe I shouldn’t be.
_
_
Yes… And let’s include intelligent…
Yet, And as with Thomas A and Augustine - never forget: Unlike Jesus? Not perfect.
Pardon my admitted barging in here -
but perhaps there never existed any need for any to dwell further into 153 than 153… ?
For, perhaps, IMHO -
that’s like microscoping the leaf thus failing to See the Forest and everything contained within.
PLUS?
It seems virtually impossible for me to ever separate
what comes across as a genuine overbearing concern for a Teaching concerning FAITH! -
from that which very easily resembles Occultic-Numerology…
I’m frankly surprised that Rutler got into that… but maybe I shouldn’t be.
_
_
J
JohnR77
Guest
I really like Father Rutler too.
But he does not give us the answer to what John meant by 153 Fish.
And just to be clear
The correct answer has nothing to do with occult,
nothing to do with paganism,
and nothing to do with numerology.
For John it was a simple Metaphor
Last edited:
J
JohnR77
Guest
Sorry.
Above was corrected.
Voice to text is absolutely horrible for Samsung 9
Supposed to be .
I really like Fr. Rutler too
Last edited:
J
JohnR77
Guest
.
I am glad you joined discussion.
Ironically in regards to my mistake above, once I’ve explained the meaning of a 153 fish I will develop that into a good argument against arrogance and even a 2nd and stronger argument against modernism which is at the root of a lot of problems the Church has been going through for the last year…
John
- Status