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AlbMagno
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How does the first section relate to the number 153?
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John 21:11. 153 fish. Father George Rutler comments on the meaning of 153 fish
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EndTimes
Guest
To those into occultic numerology it might make matter to them…Maybe 153 was the number of nations known in the world. It really does not matter, as it has not been revealed to us.
To the rest of us?
We’re generally too busy
- to concern ourselves with what appears to be arcane armchair theologizings…
J
JohnR77
Guest
I need to explain in more detail why John would have wanted, or needed, to allude to Archimedes first section of his work on Pi.
Archimedes has two sections in his calculation for Pi.
His first section concludes 22/7 > Pi
His second section concludes Pi > 223/71
Most people are only going to use the approximation Archimedes calculated in his first section, 22/7. And they will usually ignore and forget about his second section.
This is because the first approximation is so much easier to use mathematically. This is because it has a very low denominator. Only serious mathematicians and very few others would use both. Using both would require much more complicated calculations. To compare the two answers using both fractions would require the conversion of each to the lowest common denominator. That is 497, the product of the two denominators, because both 7 and 71 are prime numbers.
For example if you wanted to get the average of these two fractions Archimedes gives us, we would add
22/7 to 223/71 and divide by 2.
This requires the conversion of these fractions to a common denominator of 497.
22/7 = 1,562/497
223/71 = 1,561/497
So,
22/7 + 223/71 = 3,123/497
Dividing that by 2, using the smallest simple fraction equals 3,123/994.
994 !
That is one Huge denominator when you are crunching numbers using pen and papyrus.
Suffice to say, most people are only going to use the results of Archimedes’s first section, Pi is approximately equal to 22/7. They will forget about the second section of his work.
Therefore, if a person wanted to allude to the natural wisdom of the Greeks, a good choice would be to allude to Archimedes, the greatest Greek mathematician of antiquity. And the best choice in regards to his work, would be the first section of his work on Pi, the most practical, the most needed, therefore, the most known of his works.
With all the people on this forum and with so many more intelligent than I, someone can check my math on this.
Yes AlbMagno. That is the question. I will write more later.
John
Archimedes has two sections in his calculation for Pi.
His first section concludes 22/7 > Pi
His second section concludes Pi > 223/71
Most people are only going to use the approximation Archimedes calculated in his first section, 22/7. And they will usually ignore and forget about his second section.
This is because the first approximation is so much easier to use mathematically. This is because it has a very low denominator. Only serious mathematicians and very few others would use both. Using both would require much more complicated calculations. To compare the two answers using both fractions would require the conversion of each to the lowest common denominator. That is 497, the product of the two denominators, because both 7 and 71 are prime numbers.
For example if you wanted to get the average of these two fractions Archimedes gives us, we would add
22/7 to 223/71 and divide by 2.
This requires the conversion of these fractions to a common denominator of 497.
22/7 = 1,562/497
223/71 = 1,561/497
So,
22/7 + 223/71 = 3,123/497
Dividing that by 2, using the smallest simple fraction equals 3,123/994.
994 !
That is one Huge denominator when you are crunching numbers using pen and papyrus.
Suffice to say, most people are only going to use the results of Archimedes’s first section, Pi is approximately equal to 22/7. They will forget about the second section of his work.
Therefore, if a person wanted to allude to the natural wisdom of the Greeks, a good choice would be to allude to Archimedes, the greatest Greek mathematician of antiquity. And the best choice in regards to his work, would be the first section of his work on Pi, the most practical, the most needed, therefore, the most known of his works.
With all the people on this forum and with so many more intelligent than I, someone can check my math on this.
I apologize for the incorrectly worded statement above. It was coincidental as far as Archimedes was concerned. He used the number 153 as he did just because it made the math easier. I do not think it was coincidental for God. He purposefully had 153 fish swim into the net because He knew it would make John’s job easier when he evangelized the Greek world in which he lived.And not Coincidently The math of this section Makes it easy for John To allude to it with the number 153
.How does the first section relate to the number 153?
Yes AlbMagno. That is the question. I will write more later.
John
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JohnR77
Guest
I am working on my article on Ephesus.
How do we explain the discrepancy between the claim that the City of Ephesus was a very important port city with the map showing that it was a couple of miles inland, but actually no longer exists. Only ruins are left.
I do not know how many types of fish there are, but I believe that is irrelevant actually. This picture below is interesting, although it has nothing to do with the Bible.
Harley’s Fishes
John
How do we explain the discrepancy between the claim that the City of Ephesus was a very important port city with the map showing that it was a couple of miles inland, but actually no longer exists. Only ruins are left.
I do not know how many types of fish there are, but I believe that is irrelevant actually. This picture below is interesting, although it has nothing to do with the Bible.
Harley’s Fishes
John
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BartholomewB
Guest
Does this map help?
(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)
(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)
B
BartholomewB
Guest
Or this one?
(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)
(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)
B
BartholomewB
Guest
Or maybe this one?
(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)
(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)
J
JohnR77
Guest
I
irenaeuslyons
Guest
There are other cities that were port cities on rivers which were relatively close to a sea/ocean. Take London for instance. The navy would pop out of London into the ocean off of the Thames and back.How do we explain the discrepancy between the claim that the City of Ephesus was a very important port city with the map showing that it was a couple of miles inland, but actually no longer exists. Only ruins are left.
D
DrawNearToGod
Guest
Op
Fr Ripperger thinks the 153 fish refer to the Rosary, traditionally 153 Hail Mary’s were prayed.
Fr Ripperger thinks the 153 fish refer to the Rosary, traditionally 153 Hail Mary’s were prayed.
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JohnR77
Guest
I found a web site that shows how the John 21:11 and the 153 Fish looked in 1356 AD.
When working with foreign languages and different scripts the translation can be very different then what is common and ordinary to us. I found that personal names changed the least. Using that information I was able to find Mary Magdalene’s name in John chapter 20. Then by counting the repetition the names, Jesus, Simon, and Peter I was able to confirm that the lines just above the picture are John 21:11. I can positively identify “Simon Peter” and the number
153.” I am very confident about the identity of words for Fish and Net, but I am still working to be more certain.
Click on the link below to see it.
153 Fish in 1356 AD.
John
When working with foreign languages and different scripts the translation can be very different then what is common and ordinary to us. I found that personal names changed the least. Using that information I was able to find Mary Magdalene’s name in John chapter 20. Then by counting the repetition the names, Jesus, Simon, and Peter I was able to confirm that the lines just above the picture are John 21:11. I can positively identify “Simon Peter” and the number
153.” I am very confident about the identity of words for Fish and Net, but I am still working to be more certain.
Click on the link below to see it.
153 Fish in 1356 AD.
John
J
JohnR77
Guest
And below you can see the image for the first miraculous catch in Luke 5.
Notice how you can just make out the important names.
The names of Peter, John, and Zebedee are very prominent there.
Almost half way down in the lower text you can just make out the name of Zebedee with Simon’s name slightly after and John before.
See First Miraculous Catch
Please accept my apologies in that this does not really help us unwrap the mystery of how 153 Fish was a metaphor for wisdom.
More later
John
Notice how you can just make out the important names.
The names of Peter, John, and Zebedee are very prominent there.
Almost half way down in the lower text you can just make out the name of Zebedee with Simon’s name slightly after and John before.
See First Miraculous Catch
Please accept my apologies in that this does not really help us unwrap the mystery of how 153 Fish was a metaphor for wisdom.
More later
John
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JohnR77
Guest
I found the image below incorrectly identified on another web site as the catch of the 153 fish, but it is actually Peter Walking on water in Matthew 14.
See Peter Walking on Water.
John
See Peter Walking on Water.
John
E
EndTimes
Guest
Gee whiz… A Legion of Guesses…
Who started the notion that 153 must have some meaning other than simply being the number of fish which were caught?
Who started the notion that 153 must have some meaning other than simply being the number of fish which were caught?
1
1cthlctrth
Guest
Father Rutler has kind of a regal bearing, a little like the great Bishop Sheen did.
J
JohnR77
Guest
.Who started the notion that 153 must have some meaning other than simply being the number of fish which were caught?
Saint Augustine writes that it would be
“absurd" to
contend that there was not a special symbolic meaning for these numbers. See post number 2 and number 3 for more on that.
.
And I would like to add another reason. I believe Saint John the Evangelist implies that there is a special meaning as he states there are many things that Jesus said and did that are not included and his Gospel. So, he leaves those important things out to make room for this particular miracle and the detail of 153.
Therefore it must not be insignificant.
John
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E
EndTimes
Guest
Be that as it may… I don’t intend to attend to that…Saint Augustine writes that it would be
“absurd" to
contend that there was not a special symbolic meaning for these numbers. See post number 2 and number 3 for more on that.
.
And I would like to add another reason. I believe Saint John the Evangelist implies that there is a special meaning as he states there are many things that Jesus said and did that are not included and his Gospel. So, he leaves those important things out to make room for this particular miracle and the detail of 153.
Therefore it must not be insignificant.
John
J
JohnR77
Guest
I found an interesting translation of John 21:11 that I will send shortly
E
EndTimes
Guest
Afterward Jesus appeared again to his disciples, by the Sea of Galilee.[a] It happened this way: 2 Simon Peter, Thomas (also known as Didymus[b]), Nathanael from Cana in Galilee, the sons of Zebedee, and two other disciples were together. 3 “I’m going out to fish,” Simon Peter told them, and they said, “We’ll go with you.” So they went out and got into the boat, but that night they caught nothing.
4 Early in the morning, Jesus stood on the shore, but the disciples did not realize that it was Jesus.
5 He called out to them, “Friends, haven’t you any fish?”
“No,” they answered.
6 He said, “Throw your net on the right side of the boat and you will find some.” When they did, they were unable to haul the net in because of the large number of fish.
7 Then the disciple whom Jesus loved said to Peter, “It is the Lord!” As soon as Simon Peter heard him say, “It is the Lord,” he wrapped his outer garment around him (for he had taken it off) and jumped into the water. 8 The other disciples followed in the boat, towing the net full of fish, for they were not far from shore, about a hundred yards.[c] 9 When they landed, they saw a fire of burning coals there with fish on it, and some bread.
10 Jesus said to them, “Bring some of the fish you have just caught.” 11 So Simon Peter climbed back into the boat and dragged the net ashore. It was full of large fish, 153, but even with so many the net was not torn. 12 Jesus said to them, “Come and have breakfast.” None of the disciples dared ask him, “Who are you?” They knew it was the Lord. 13 Jesus came, took the bread and gave it to them, and did the same with the fish. 14 This was now the third time Jesus appeared to his disciples after he was raised from the dead.
“Yes, Lord,” he said, “you know that I love you.”
Jesus said, “Feed my lambs.”
16 Again Jesus said, “Simon son of John, do you love me?”
He answered, “Yes, Lord, you know that I love you.”
Jesus said, “Take care of my sheep.”
17 The third time he said to him, “Simon son of John, do you love me?”
Peter was hurt because Jesus asked him the third time, “Do you love me?” He said, “Lord, you know all things; you know that I love you.”
Jesus said, “Feed my sheep. 18 Very truly I tell you, when you were younger you dressed yourself and went where you wanted; but when you are old you will stretch out your hands, and someone else will dress you and lead you where you do not want to go.” 19 Jesus said this to indicate the kind of death by which Peter would glorify God. Then he said to him, “Follow me!”
4 Early in the morning, Jesus stood on the shore, but the disciples did not realize that it was Jesus.
5 He called out to them, “Friends, haven’t you any fish?”
“No,” they answered.
6 He said, “Throw your net on the right side of the boat and you will find some.” When they did, they were unable to haul the net in because of the large number of fish.
7 Then the disciple whom Jesus loved said to Peter, “It is the Lord!” As soon as Simon Peter heard him say, “It is the Lord,” he wrapped his outer garment around him (for he had taken it off) and jumped into the water. 8 The other disciples followed in the boat, towing the net full of fish, for they were not far from shore, about a hundred yards.[c] 9 When they landed, they saw a fire of burning coals there with fish on it, and some bread.
10 Jesus said to them, “Bring some of the fish you have just caught.” 11 So Simon Peter climbed back into the boat and dragged the net ashore. It was full of large fish, 153, but even with so many the net was not torn. 12 Jesus said to them, “Come and have breakfast.” None of the disciples dared ask him, “Who are you?” They knew it was the Lord. 13 Jesus came, took the bread and gave it to them, and did the same with the fish. 14 This was now the third time Jesus appeared to his disciples after he was raised from the dead.
Jesus Reinstates Peter
15 When they had finished eating, Jesus said to Simon Peter, “Simon son of John, do you love me more than these?”“Yes, Lord,” he said, “you know that I love you.”
Jesus said, “Feed my lambs.”
16 Again Jesus said, “Simon son of John, do you love me?”
He answered, “Yes, Lord, you know that I love you.”
Jesus said, “Take care of my sheep.”
17 The third time he said to him, “Simon son of John, do you love me?”
Peter was hurt because Jesus asked him the third time, “Do you love me?” He said, “Lord, you know all things; you know that I love you.”
Jesus said, “Feed my sheep. 18 Very truly I tell you, when you were younger you dressed yourself and went where you wanted; but when you are old you will stretch out your hands, and someone else will dress you and lead you where you do not want to go.” 19 Jesus said this to indicate the kind of death by which Peter would glorify God. Then he said to him, “Follow me!”
J
JohnR77
Guest
Thanks for the translation above.
I was working on another, but it has been more time consuming than I thought it would be. Eventually I will present it.
However, since it seems that some are slow to show an enthusiastic affirmation of my conclusions, I am going to employ another line of argument that should prove quite beneficial.
I am going to call out the Big Guns.
By that, I mean I will present some images from some Bibles or Bible related prayer books that were made from 800’s to 13th century.
This is my favorite time as regards to Bible making.
This is the time period started by the impetus of Charlemagne.
This is when he really got Bible production kicked into high gear relative to the means available.
The scribes painted some very important images.
And these images have a lot to tell.
Here is my favorite image from a Bible study book of St. Erentrud.
(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)
This image, when we study it, shows how 153 Fish represents wisdom.
So, now the question is :
How does this image show that 153 Fish means wisdom ?
Going back to my theme of,
How to Solve a Mystery
Study how some things seem slightly odd or different.
( l am writing about the image here. Not myself.)
There is a reason why they are that way.
These peculiarities are the clues to what message the artist was trying to convey.
I hope you like this image. It is the Most Beautiful one that I have found.
Please do not be spoiled as the others seem to be pale by comparison.
They do not have as much color either.
I will give more details later.
John
I was working on another, but it has been more time consuming than I thought it would be. Eventually I will present it.
However, since it seems that some are slow to show an enthusiastic affirmation of my conclusions, I am going to employ another line of argument that should prove quite beneficial.
I am going to call out the Big Guns.
By that, I mean I will present some images from some Bibles or Bible related prayer books that were made from 800’s to 13th century.
This is my favorite time as regards to Bible making.
This is the time period started by the impetus of Charlemagne.
This is when he really got Bible production kicked into high gear relative to the means available.
The scribes painted some very important images.
And these images have a lot to tell.
Here is my favorite image from a Bible study book of St. Erentrud.
(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)
This image, when we study it, shows how 153 Fish represents wisdom.
So, now the question is :
How does this image show that 153 Fish means wisdom ?
Going back to my theme of,
How to Solve a Mystery
Study how some things seem slightly odd or different.
( l am writing about the image here. Not myself.)
There is a reason why they are that way.
These peculiarities are the clues to what message the artist was trying to convey.
I hope you like this image. It is the Most Beautiful one that I have found.
Please do not be spoiled as the others seem to be pale by comparison.
They do not have as much color either.
I will give more details later.
John
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