John 3:13 No one has gone up to heaven?

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In the daily reading yesterday, Jesus said to Nicodemus “No one has gone up to heaven
except the one who has come down from heaven, the Son of Man.” (John 3:13)

So I got to thinking… what about Enoch, who was “taken by God & was no more” or Elijah, who was greeted by chariots of fire & caught up in a whirlwind? Didn’t they go to heaven? If not, where did they go? What about the other O.T. saints?

Jesus seems to imply no one has gone up to heaven except Him… at least up to that point. Am I missing something? Curious to hear other’s thoughts on this.
 
Another translation uses ascended instead of gone up to heaven. Christ is the only one who has ascended to heaven by his own power. Others were assumed into heaven like Mary, but this is God taking them to heaven.
 
Agreed: no one has “gone up,” but some have been “taken up.” Notice how the Church refers to Jesus’ Ascension, but the Assumption of Mary.

Only Jesus can go to Heaven on His own.
 
We know that a tenet of our faith is that it took the death of Jesus to make heaven available to humankind. So we know that noone was in heaven until Jesus made his sacrifice on the cross.

Then where did these holy old testment people go if they didn’t go to heaven?

Limbo.

But dosen’t it say Elijah and Enoch went to heaven?

Yes.

But it could not have been the heaven that Jesus opened up for us.

Then there are two heavens?

Maybe Limbo has designations for the holy and not so holy people.

We know that Jesus thought very highly of St. John the Baptist. But when he was executed, he did not enter the heaven that we know as heaven today after Jesus died,
since Jesus had not died before John was killed.

Just a thought.
 
fred_conty said:
We know that a tenet of our faith is that it took the death of Jesus to make heaven available to humankind. So we know that noone was in heaven until Jesus made his sacrifice on the cross.

Then where did these holy old testment people go if they didn’t go to heaven?

Limbo.

But dosen’t it say Elijah and Enoch went to heaven?

Yes.

But it could not have been the heaven that Jesus opened up for us.

Then there are two heavens?

Maybe Limbo has designations for the holy and not so holy people.

We know that Jesus thought very highly of St. John the Baptist. But when he was executed, he did not enter the heaven that we know as heaven today after Jesus died,
since Jesus had not died before John was killed.

Just a thought.
Click to expand...
Although we can recall Jesus telling the Jews, God said to Moses (I am) the God of your ancestors, Abraham Isaac and Jacob, and Jesus says that means they are alive.

Also in Matthew 17 Jesus meets with Moses and Elijah and converses with them, the dead don’t have conversations with the living, so they must be alive, just like Jesus said.
 
Limbo is a designation for those that are alive in the spirit.
 
Chowmah said:
Are u sure it actually says those 2 went to heaven? Or is that the assumption?
Click to expand...
2 Kings 2:11

“And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, which parted them both assunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.”

Hebrews 11:5

“By faith Enoch was taken from this life, so that he did not experience death; he could not be found, because God had taken him away. For before he was taken, he was commended as one who pleased God.”

So I don’t know that it directly says it for Enoch, but where else would it be? Why would God take him to limbo away from the world?
 
John 3:13 from the Latin Vulgate:

[BIBLELVB]John 3:13[/BIBLELVB]

And translate.google.com on the Latin:

And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, the Son of man, who is in heaven.

Not too shabby. 😃
 
Well there is another possible explaination. The writers at that time didn’t have the concept of earth,space and stars that we have today and the way they are laid out.

Their concept was a flat earth, with a round sphere over the earth from one end to the other.
The concept of heaven was not like ours, it was that which was above the earth.
And hades was that which was below the earth.
This being the case, limbo would not be adverse to that place except to them it was called heaven.

As far as Elijah appearing with Christ to Peter, James and John, they may have appeared to have bodies, just as the angels, who are pure spirits, have appeared to have had bodies.

Just a thought.
 
faithtrekker said:
In the daily reading yesterday, Jesus said to Nicodemus “No one has gone up to heaven
except the one who has come down from heaven, the Son of Man.” (John 3:13)

So I got to thinking… what about Enoch, who was “taken by God & was no more” or Elijah, who was greeted by chariots of fire & caught up in a whirlwind? Didn’t they go to heaven? If not, where did they go? What about the other O.T. saints?

Jesus seems to imply no one has gone up to heaven except Him… at least up to that point. Am I missing something? Curious to hear other’s thoughts on this.
Click to expand...
I think that Jesus is speaking of Himself as the only man that is able to Ascend into Heaven… since He is both human and Divine.

…as for those non-Divine… they did not ascend into Heaven but where taken up (assumed) to Heaven–I suspect that, as St. Paul’s twinkling of an eye scenario, they were all changed into a Glorified body similar to Christ’s post Resurrection Glorified Body.

Maran atha!

Angel
 
fred_conty said:
We know that a tenet of our faith is that it took the death of Jesus to make heaven available to humankind. So we know that noone was in heaven until Jesus made his sacrifice on the cross.

Then where did these holy old testment people go if they didn’t go to heaven?

Limbo.

But dosen’t it say Elijah and Enoch went to heaven?

Yes.

But it could not have been the heaven that Jesus opened up for us.

Then there are two heavens?

Maybe Limbo has designations for the holy and not so holy people.

We know that Jesus thought very highly of St. John the Baptist. But when he was executed, he did not enter the heaven that we know as heaven today after Jesus died,
since Jesus had not died before John was killed.

Just a thought.
Click to expand...
…the problem is that that would make God very ordinary… removing people from life just to drop them off at some indetermined place for hundreds/thousands of years…

I rather think that it is less complicated than that… what God does and what we can understand of Who/What God is are two different things… look at Genesis’ account of Creation… light was brought into existence on the 1st day… but the Sun, Moon and planets/stars did not come into existence till the 4th day…

…and don’t forge Jesus’ Transfiguration… He takes three of His Disciples to witness a meet with Moses and Elijah… both of these men were dead hundreds of years before Christ’s Incarnation and yet Peter instantly recognizes them and goes gaga and offers to build three temples (tents) for Jesus and his buds.

…and talk about technicality… Scriptures state that Jesus is the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last… yet, we are told, by Scriptures, that at His death on the Cross holy men of God rose from the dead–interestingly, they did not leave the cemetery till Christ’s Resurrection!

Maran atha!

Angel
 
faithtrekker said:
In the daily reading yesterday, Jesus said to Nicodemus “No one has gone up to heaven
except the one who has come down from heaven, the Son of Man.” (John 3:13)

So I got to thinking… what about Enoch, who was “taken by God & was no more” or Elijah, who was greeted by chariots of fire & caught up in a whirlwind? Didn’t they go to heaven? If not, where did they go? What about the other O.T. saints?

Jesus seems to imply no one has gone up to heaven except Him… at least up to that point. Am I missing something? Curious to hear other’s thoughts on this.
Click to expand...
Hi faithtrekker,

Before Jesus ascended into heaven, no one could enter Heaven because of the stain of original sin. As Scripture tells us, nothing unclean or impure can enter heaven. That is why God had to come to us in the human form of Jesus, and redeem us, thereby making it possible for us to be able to enter into God’s presence in Heaven.

When Jesus died, and then resurrected from the dead, He had not yet ascended into heaven when He said the statement above to Nicodemus.

Enoch and Elijah were taken up into the heavens (not Heaven in God’s Holy presence), and their lives ended (what became of their bodies - who knows? That is for God to know) but their souls would have gone to Sheol since no one could enter heaven yet.

Sheol is mentioned in several places in the Bible and was the “resting” place (or better said: the “waiting” place) of the Old Testament Saints and the ungodly as well. Sheol was divided into two “places”: paradise and hades (or hell). Paradise was the place that those souls going to heaven would have went, whereas hell was the place that the ungodly went.

Jesus is the bridge between us and God, and Jesus is the one who opened the gates of heaven for us: Jesus, as Scripture tells us, is the firstfruits.

Once Jesus ascended into heaven, then those souls awaiting that moment, were released from Sheol and could then enter heaven (except those going to hell).

Note that when Jesus was dying on the cross, He told the repentent theif that before this day ended he (the good thief) would be in “paradise” with Him (Jesus). That is because the thief and Jesus wouldn’t be going to hell - but to paradise in Sheol – the place of the dead. Jesus remained there 3 days, and preached the gospel to those souls there.

This is the place where Jesus went in spirit to preach the good news to those other souls (spirits in prison).

1 Peter 3:18 - 18 For Christ also suffered for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, in order to bring you to God. He was put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit, 19 in which also he went and made a proclamation to the spirits in prison, 20 who in former times did not obey, when God waited patiently in the days of Noah, during the building of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were saved through water.

1 Peter 4:5-6 - 5 But they will have to give an accounting to him who stands ready to judge the living and the dead. 6 For this is the reason the gospel was proclaimed even to the dead, so that, though they had been judged in the flesh as everyone is judged, they might live in the spirit as God does.

The Greek Septuagint translated “sheol” as “hades” - the Greek mythological concept of the underworld of the dead.

In the Book of Enoch, Sheol is described as having four divisions, whereas in Prov 7:27 sheol is described as having “chambers” - thus more than one division.

It is not the same as “hell” or “gehenna”.

Hope that helps!

blessings,
CEM

P.S. Limbo is not any of the above mentioned. Limbo isn’t even a doctrine of the Church.
 
Chowmah said:
Are u sure it actually says those 2 went to heaven? Or is that the assumption?
Click to expand...
Imagine spending a few hundred/thousand years doing nothing but waiting around… does that sound like a reward for being “God’s friend” or a good servant? :hmmm:

Maran atha!

Angel
 
Jesus being the only One Who ascended into Heaven of His own accord makes sense…

However, as to where everyone else went when they were caught up or died…
I don’t know what I think about “limbo”. Didn’t they recently do away with that?

I’m inclined to recall how Paul talks about being caught up into the 3rd heaven (as if there are multiple layers). Maybe this is where Enoch & Elijah & everyone else went? Its still technically heaven, but maybe not the “highest” heaven? :hmmm:
 
fred_conty said:
Well there is another possible explaination. The writers at that time didn’t have the concept of earth,space and stars that we have today and the way they are laid out.

Their concept was a flat earth, with a round sphere over the earth from one end to the other.
The concept of heaven was not like ours, it was that which was above the earth.
And hades was that which was below the earth.
This being the case, limbo would not be adverse to that place except to them it was called heaven.

As far as Elijah appearing with Christ to Peter, James and John, they may have appeared to have bodies, just as the angels, who are pure spirits, have appeared to have had bodies.

Just a thought.
Click to expand...
…but the nagging question is why would God reward His servants with limbo?

…further, would angels be kept out till Jesus’ Ascension or would they be able to leave and re-enter Heaven at will?

Maran atha!

Angel
 
jcrichton said:
Imagine spending a few hundred/thousand years doing nothing but waiting around… does that sound like a reward for being “God’s friend” or a good servant? :hmmm:

Maran atha!

Angel
Click to expand...
Hi jcrichton,

As my above post indicates, those souls that awaited Jesus were in paradise in Sheol. Being in paradise for however long would have been a great “reward”. After all: paradise is not hell, nor does it contain the earthly trials or burdens any more.

peace of Christ,
CEM
 
jcrichton said:
…but the nagging question is why would God reward His servants with limbo?

…further, would angels be kept out till Jesus’ Ascension or would they be able to leave and re-enter Heaven at will?

Maran atha!

Angel
Click to expand...
Angels were always with God.
 
faithtrekker said:
Jesus being the only One Who ascended into Heaven of His own accord makes sense…

However, as to where everyone else went when they were caught up or died…
I don’t know what I think about “limbo”. Didn’t they recently do away with that?

I’m inclined to recall how Paul talks about being caught up into the 3rd heaven (as if there are multiple layers). Maybe this is where Enoch & Elijah & everyone else went? Its still technically heaven, but maybe not the “highest” heaven? :hmmm:
Click to expand...
Hi faithtrekker,

I already posted this, but I am not sure you saw my answer so I’ll repeat it here:

Before Jesus ascended into heaven, no one could enter Heaven because of the stain of original sin. As Scripture tells us, nothing unclean or impure can enter heaven. That is why God had to come to us in the human form of Jesus, and redeem us, thereby making it possible for us to be able to enter into God’s presence in Heaven.

When Jesus died, and then resurrected from the dead, He had not yet ascended into heaven when He said the statement above to Nicodemus.

Enoch and Elijah were taken up into the heavens (not Heaven in God’s Holy presence), and their lives ended (what became of their bodies - who knows? That is for God to know) but their souls would have gone to Sheol since no one could enter heaven yet.

Sheol is mentioned in several places in the Bible and was the “resting” place (or better said: the “waiting” place) of the Old Testament Saints and the ungodly as well. Sheol was divided into two “places”: paradise and hades (or hell). Paradise was the place that those souls going to heaven would have went, whereas hell was the place that the ungodly went.

Jesus is the bridge between us and God, and Jesus is the one who opened the gates of heaven for us: Jesus, as Scripture tells us, is the firstfruits.

Once Jesus ascended into heaven, then those souls awaiting that moment, were released from Sheol and could then enter heaven (except those going to hell).

Note that when Jesus was dying on the cross, He told the repentent theif that before this day ended he (the good thief) would be in “paradise” with Him (Jesus). That is because the thief and Jesus wouldn’t be going to hell - but to paradise in Sheol – the place of the dead. Jesus remained there 3 days, and preached the gospel to those souls there.

This is the place where Jesus went in spirit to preach the good news to those other souls (spirits in prison).

1 Peter 3:18 - 18 For Christ also suffered for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, in order to bring you to God. He was put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit, 19 in which also he went and made a proclamation to the spirits in prison, 20 who in former times did not obey, when God waited patiently in the days of Noah, during the building of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were saved through water.

1 Peter 4:5-6 - 5 But they will have to give an accounting to him who stands ready to judge the living and the dead. 6 For this is the reason the gospel was proclaimed even to the dead, so that, though they had been judged in the flesh as everyone is judged, they might live in the spirit as God does.

The Greek Septuagint translated “sheol” as “hades” - the Greek mythological concept of the underworld of the dead.

In the Book of Enoch, Sheol is described as having four divisions, whereas in Prov 7:27 sheol is described as having “chambers” - thus more than one division.

It is not the same as “hell” or “gehenna”.

Hope that helps!

blessings,
CEM

P.S. Limbo is not any of the above mentioned. Limbo isn’t even a doctrine of the Church.
 
faithtrekker said:
Jesus being the only One Who ascended into Heaven of His own accord makes sense…

However, as to where everyone else went when they were caught up or died…
I don’t know what I think about “limbo”. Didn’t they recently do away with that?

I’m inclined to recall how Paul talks about being caught up into the 3rd heaven (as if there are multiple layers). Maybe this is where Enoch & Elijah & everyone else went? Its still technically heaven, but maybe not the “highest” heaven? :hmmm:
Click to expand...
…and as a stickler for being pedestrian… why are there Saints in Heaven before Jesus’ Parousia and the gathering of those who will enter into the presence of God takes place?

…these Saints are different from the angels… and as a matter of fact… the four living creatures and the 24 elders are definetely not part of God’s Triune existence… how do these get into Heaven if there’s a fixed rule which God cannot supercede? :ehh:

Maran atha!

Angel
 
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