John 3:13

  • Thread starter Thread starter cheeto1
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
C

cheeto1

Guest
“Jesus said to Nicodemus:
“No one has gone up to heaven
except the one who has come down from heaven, the Son of Man”

– Then I wonder where Enoch and Elijah went?
 
cheeto1 said:
“Jesus said to Nicodemus:
“No one has gone up to heaven
except the one who has come down from heaven, the Son of Man”

– Then I wonder where Enoch and Elijah went?
Click to expand...
Maybe into Abraham’s bosom?
 
Maybe Jesus is referring to a bodily assumption, such as He and Mary would later experience. I think the prophets to whom you refer died as you and I will and will not be risen until the last day.
 
Actually Elijah’s was very much an assumption - like Mary’s. Jesus, however, was not assumed into Heaven, He ascended, and that’s a crucial difference. Being God He went up to Heaven - by His own volition, as He also came down. Which I think is what this verse probably means, as well. But I’ll be interested to read others’ thoughts. . . .
 
He said this to Nicodemus before He ascended. I think He was hinting at His Divinity. And, if I am not mistaken, heaven was not opened up to anyone until the Death and Ressurection. I think Abraham’s Bosom is probably the place, whatever that was. :hmmm:
 
Abraham’s Bosom is a text that points to Heaven. It is a metaphore for Heaven,

The previous poster had the right idea, Christ could ascend into Heaven by His own will, while mankind must first have their sins washed before being gathered up into Christ.

It is true that both Enoch and Elijah were translated into heaven, body and soul. This is only possible, because salvation had already been paid for.

For complete harmony: original sin entered the world through Adam, Enoch was the seventh son to Adam, though he was translated, he too, was born of the world into original sin. What happens is somewhere along the line, these men became true believers and had there sins washed by the holy spirit, thus they were two exceptions for being translated body and soul. This can only be accomplished by the forgivness of their sin, all man enters the world by sin, and unless that sin is paid for, you will never be reborn spiritually, thus when you die, you are dead, your body is dead, because we are mortal, your soul is dead because you never found Christ. But these men were believers, and their sins had been paid for by the Lamb[Christ] Who was slain before the foundations.

Pointing to the fact that, in 33AD, Christ came to “demonstrate” how He had “already” paid for our sins. Otherwise, Christ would have had to die many times to wash away the sin, but He died only once, before the foundations, then He came to demonstrate how He paid for our sins.

Christ is the lamb slain before the foundations, thusly, we can understand that all sin had already been paid for before the foundations, which is why Enoch and Elijah “was”, and then “was not”, meaning they were translated into heaven.

Remember man cannot wash their own sins away, So it is entirely accurate to state that the Lamb who was slain before the foundations, is infact a truth that litterally happened, and this is why Enoch, who was only the seventh son to Adam when the world first came to be, thousands of years before 33AD, was able to be taken up into heaven. Because his sins were washed, and he was clean.
 
Catholic theology teaches that people such as Moses and Elijah, et. al. were among the “righteous dead” held in a curious state called “Abraham’s Bosom”. During His absence from earth, those three days, the Lord visited them and led them triumphantly through the gates of heaven. Then again, outside the temporal order, infinity exists, so how it transpired is a mystery.

Christ’s redemptive act rippled through time both forward and backward, so, your proposal that Enoch and Elijah received sanctifying grace through the Holy Spirit is congruent with our beliefs.

We believe the soul is immortal. We enjoy the beatific vision of God, or we are condemned to eternity in hell. Also a mystery.

Would you mind citing the Scripture that indicates, to you, that Christ had “already” paid for our sins? What do you mean by His coming to “demonstrate” how he paid for our sins?

The Scriptures do not cite exactly where either Enoch or Elijah actually went, just to “the heavens” which means the sky. When Jesus went, He specified He was joining with the Father. We know exactly where He went.
 
You know how in the Book of Revelations John wrotee about two prophets who terrorize the earth?

Those two prophets will be Enoch and Elijah!!!
 
Ceil-1 said:
He said this to Nicodemus before He ascended. I think He was hinting at His Divinity. And, if I am not mistaken, heaven was not opened up to anyone until the Death and Ressurection. I think Abraham’s Bosom is probably the place, whatever that was. :hmmm:
Click to expand...
In the Holy Bible, the expression “the Bosom of Abraham” is found only in two verses of St. Luke’s Gospel (xvi, 22, 23). It occurs in the parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus the imagery of which is plainly drawn from the popular representations of the unseen world of the dead which were current in [Our Lord’s](file:///C:/Documents%20and%20Settings/Jeanne%20Homan/Desktop/Religion/Encyclopedia/cathen/08374c.htm) time. According to the Jewish conceptions of that day, the souls of the dead were gathered into a general tarrying-place the Sheol of the Old Testament literature, and the Hades of the New Testament writings (cf. Luke, xvi, 22 in the Gr. xvi, 23). A local discrimination, however, existed among them, according to their deeds during their mortal life. In the unseen world of the dead the souls of the righteous occupied an abode or compartment of their own which was distinctly separated by a wall or a chasm from the abode or compartment to which the souls of the wicked were consigned. The latter was a place of torments usually spoken of as Gehenna (cf. Matt., v, 29, 30; xviii, 9- Mark, ix, 42 sqq. in the Latin Vulgate)- the other, a place of bliss and security known under the names of “Paradise” (cf. Luke, xxiii, 43) and “the Bosom of Abraham” (Luke, xvi, 22 23). And it is in harmony with these Jewish conceptions that [Our Lord](file:///C:/Documents%20and%20Settings/Jeanne%20Homan/Desktop/Religion/Encyclopedia/cathen/08374c.htm) pictured the terrible fate of the selfish Rich Man, and on the contrary, the glorious reward of the patient Lazarus. In the next life Dives found himself in Gehenna, condemned to the most excruciating torments, whereas Lazarus was carried by the angels into “the Bosom of Abraham”, where the righteous dead shared in the repose and felicity of Abraham “the father of the faithful”. But while commentators generally agree upon the meaning of the figurative expression “the Bosom of Abraham”, as designating the blissful abode of the righteous souls after death, they are at variance with regard to the manner in which the phrase itself originated. Up to the time of Maldonatus (A.D. 1583), its origin was traced back to the universal custom of parents to take up into their arms, or place upon their knees, their children when they are fatigued, or return home, and to make them rest by their side during the night (cf. II Kings, xii, 2; III Kings, iii, 20; xvii, 19; Luke, xi, 7 sqq.), thus causing them to enjoy rest and security in the bosom of a loving parent. After the same manner was Abraham supposed to act towards his children after the fatigues and troubles of the present life, hence the metaphorical expression “to be in Abraham’s Bosom” as meaning to be in repose and happiness with him. But according to Maldonatus (In Lucam, xvi, 22), whose theory has since been accepted by many scholars, the metaphor “to be in Abraham’s Bosom” is derived from the custom of reclining on couches at table which prevailed among the Jews during and before the time of Christ. As at a feast each guest leaned on his left elbow so as to leave his right arm at liberty, and as two or more lay on the same couch, the head of one man was near the breast of the man who lay behind, and he was therefore said “to lie in the bosom” of the other. It was also considered by the Jews of old a mark of special honour and favour for one to be allowed to lie in the bosom of the master of the feast (cf. John 13:23). And it is by this illustration that they pictured the next world. They conceived of the reward of the righteous dead as a sharing in a banquet given by Abraham, “the father of the faithful” (cf. Matt., viii, 11 sqq.), and of the highest form of that reward as lying in “Abraham’s Bosom”. Since the coming of [Our Lord](file:///C:/Documents%20and%20Settings/Jeanne%20Homan/Desktop/Religion/Encyclopedia/cathen/08374c.htm), “the Bosom of Abraham” gradually ceased to designate a place of imperfect happiness, and it has become synonymous with [Heaven](file:///C:/Documents%20and%20Settings/Jeanne%20Homan/Desktop/Religion/Encyclopedia/cathen/07170a.htm) itself. In their writings the Fathers of the Church mean by that expression sometimes the abode of the righteous dead before they were admitted to the Beatific Vision after the death of the Saviour, sometimes [Heaven](file:///C:/Documents%20and%20Settings/Jeanne%20Homan/Desktop/Religion/Encyclopedia/cathen/07170a.htm), into which the just of the New Law are immediately introduced upon their demise. When in her liturgy the Church solemnly prays that the angels may carry the soul of one of her departed children to “Abraham’s Bosom”, she employs the expression to designate [Heaven](file:///C:/Documents%20and%20Settings/Jeanne%20Homan/Desktop/Religion/Encyclopedia/cathen/07170a.htm) and its endless bliss in company with the faithful of both Testaments, and in particular with Abraham, the father of them all. This passage of the expression “the Bosom of Abraham” from an imperfect and limited sense to one higher and fuller is a most natural one, and is in full harmony with the general character of the New Testament dispensation as a complement and fulfilment of the Old Testament revelation.
From the Catholic Encyclopedia
Jeanne
 
intheBible said:
Abraham’s Bosom is a text that points to Heaven. It is a metaphore for Heaven,

Christ is the lamb slain before the foundations, thusly, we can understand that all sin had already been paid for before the foundations, which is why Enoch and Elijah “was”, and then “was not”, meaning they were translated into heaven.
Click to expand...
Then why did Jesus just say “no one has gone up to heaven… but the Son of Man”?

I’m thinking the people here are right with the Bosom of Abraham,
but that is an interesting idea you have about Jesus being killed before the foundations. Do you just mean His death in 33a.d. went back and forward in time?

Shoewindow - I stay out of the book of Revelations as much as possible, since I
don’t think I’m one “with wisdom” who can understand any of it.
I have seen the discussions distract people from right living, to
chase these mysteries. Why would God’s beloved prophets terrorize
the earth?
 
I think our friend has “left the building”. I’m disppointed, because I am genuinely interested in what has led him to this speculation about Elijah, Enoch, and the rest of it. I have never heard that take before.

IntheBible, come back. We miss you!
 
Based on my understanding of the Sacred Scriptures, this passage is a formal declaration of the divinity of Jesus. Nobody has gone up to heaven and so nobody has perfect knowledge of God’s secrets, except God himself who became man. And as we all know Jesus became man and came down from heaven, the second Person of the Blessed Trinity. Jesus the “Word made flesh” does not stop being God on becoming man when he is on earth as man, he is in heaven as God.
 
intheBible said:
Abraham’s Bosom is a text that points to Heaven. It is a metaphore for Heaven,

The previous poster had the right idea, Christ could ascend into Heaven by His own will, while mankind must first have their sins washed before being gathered up into Christ.

It is true that both Enoch and Elijah were translated into heaven, body and soul. This is only possible, because salvation had already been paid for.

For complete harmony: original sin entered the world through Adam, Enoch was the seventh son to Adam, though he was translated, he too, was born of the world into original sin. What happens is somewhere along the line, these men became true believers and had there sins washed by the holy spirit, thus they were two exceptions for being translated body and soul. This can only be accomplished by the forgivness of their sin, all man enters the world by sin, and unless that sin is paid for, you will never be reborn spiritually, thus when you die, you are dead, your body is dead, because we are mortal, your soul is dead because you never found Christ. But these men were believers, and their sins had been paid for by the Lamb[Christ] Who was slain before the foundations.

Pointing to the fact that, in 33AD, Christ came to “demonstrate” how He had “already” paid for our sins. Otherwise, Christ would have had to die many times to wash away the sin, but He died only once, before the foundations, then He came to demonstrate how He paid for our sins.

Christ is the lamb slain before the foundations, thusly, we can understand that all sin had already been paid for before the foundations, which is why Enoch and Elijah “was”, and then “was not”, meaning they were translated into heaven.

Remember man cannot wash their own sins away, So it is entirely accurate to state that the Lamb who was slain before the foundations, is infact a truth that litterally happened, and this is why Enoch, who was only the seventh son to Adam when the world first came to be, thousands of years before 33AD, was able to be taken up into heaven. Because his sins were washed, and he was clean.
Click to expand...
This is a very convoluted and unnecessary explanation. Jesus was truly crucified only once - in the first century of our time. But The Lamb was slain from before the foundations because God is eternal - He is outside of time (which is part of creation) and for Him all things are NOW (omnipresence not only in space but in time).

The faithful under the old covenant were saved by grace through faith in what had been promised. The faithful under the new covenant are saved by grace through faith in what has been done. All are saved by the one death and resurrection.

The sacrifices of the old covenant were effective (they must have been, because God said they would be) because they pointed to the Perfect Sacrifice. The sacrifices of the new covenant are effective because they make the Perfect Sacrifice present to us. The Perfect Sacrifice is once-for-all-time, always-and-everywhere, because time and space are created and He is uncreated (begotten, not made).
 
=cheeto1;5698349]“Jesus said to Nicodemus:
“No one has gone up to heaven
except the one who has come down from heaven, the Son of Man”

– Then I wonder where Enoch and Elijah went?
Click to expand...
Well it could not be heaven and access was blocked due to the Sin of Adam and even and this was before the Death and Ressurection of Jesus.

The Catholic Term is “Limbo”
"*The abode of souls excluded from the full blessedness of the beatific vision, but not suffering any other punishment. They enjoy the happiness that would have been human destiny if humans had not been elevated to the supernatural order.

Catholic theology distinguishes two kinds of limbo. The limbo of the Fathers (limbus patrum) was the place where the saints of the Old Testament remained until Christ’s coming and redemption of the world. The limbo of infants (limbus infantium) is the permanent state of those who die in original sin but are innocent of any personal guilt.

Regarding the limbo of infants, it is an article of the Catholic faith that those who die without baptism, and for whom the act of baptism has not been supplied in some other way, cannot enter heaven. This is the teaching of the ecumenical councils of Florence and Trent. After defining justification as “a passing from the state in which man is born of the first Adam, to the state of grace and adoption as sons of God,” Trent declared, “Since the Gospel was promulgated, this passing cannot take place without the water of regeneration or the desire for it, as it is written, ‘Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God’ (John 3:5)” (Denzinger 1524).

Some theologians of renown have thought that God might supply the want of baptism by some other means. St. Bernard suggested that such infants could reach heaven because of the faith of their parents (De Baptismo I, 4; II, 1). Cardinal Cajetan (1469-1534) espoused the same theory, but Pope St. Pius V had the passage removed from Cajetan’s works.

The great majority of theologians, approved by the Church, teach that infants who die in original sin suffer no “pain of sense.” They are simply excluded from the beatific vision. Do they grieve because of heaven? St. Thomas Aquinas answers that they do not, because pain of punishment is proportioned to personal guilt, which does not exist here. Rather, “They rejoice because they share in God’s goodness and in many natural perfections” (De Malo, V, 3). It is believed that infants in limbo know and love God intensely by the use of their natural powers, and the enjoy full natural happiness.

The Church has never defined the existence of limbo, although she has more than once supported the fact by her authority. Those who either deny that heaven is a supernatural destiny to which no creature has a natural claim, or who deny that original sin deprives a person of a right to heaven logically also deny the very possibility of limbo. On their premises there is no need of such a place. Among others who denied the existence of limbo were the Jansenists, whose theory of selective predestination excluded the need for any mediatorial source of grace, including baptism. They were condemned by Pope Pius VI as teaching something “false, rash and injurious to Catholic education,” because they claimed that it was a Pelagian fable to hold that there is a place “which the faithful generally designate by the name of limbo of children,” for the souls of those who depart this life with the sole guilt of original sin (Denzinger 2626). Pope Pius XII declared that “an act of love can suffice for an adult to acquire sanctifying grace and supply for the lack of baptism; to the unborn or newly born infant this way is not open” (Acta Apostolicae Sedis, XLIII, 84). At stake in the traditional belief in limbo is the revealed doctrine that heaven is a sheer gift of divine goodness and that baptism of water or desire is necessary to enter heaven. (Etym. Latin limbo, ablative form of limbus, border; taken from “in limbo patrum” [in the border of hell reserved for the fathers (or saints)], a phrase used by the Church Fathers.")*
 
Ceil-1 said:
I think our friend has “left the building”. I’m disppointed, because I am genuinely interested in what has led him to this speculation about Elijah, Enoch, and the rest of it. I have never heard that take before.

IntheBible, come back. We miss you!
Click to expand...
Hi, I apologize I need to come back here more often to keep the conversation going.

For the individual who is interested in learning what they had never learned before, allow me to illucidate.

John 17:23-25 (New King James Version)
23 I in them, and You in Me; that they may be made perfect in one, and that the world may know that You have sent Me, and have loved them as You have loved Me.
24 “Father, I desire that they also whom You gave Me may be with Me where I am, that they may behold My glory which You have given Me; for You loved Me **before the foundation of the **world. 25 O righteous Father! The world has not known You, but I have known You; and these have known that You sent Me.

Ephesians 1:3-5 (New King James Version)

Redemption in Christ

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will

1 Peter 1:19-21 (New King James Version)
19 **but with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot. 20 He indeed was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you **21 who through Him believe in God, who raised Him from the dead and gave Him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God.

Revelation 13:7-9 (New King James Version)
7 It was granted to him[Satan] to make war with the saints and to overcome them. And authority was given him[Satan] over every tribe, tongue, and nation. 8 All who dwell on the earth will worship him[Satan], whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
9 If anyone has an ear, let him hear.

Ephesians 1:4,6
According as he[the Father] hath chosen us in him [in Christ] before the foundations of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: having predestinated us unto adoption of children by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, to the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

Romans 9:11
For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand , not of works, but of him that calleth.

The rule of thumb is to compare scripture with scripture. I did that above and so we see an interesting connection.

The Lord is the Lamb who was killed and was resurected before the foundations of the earth, this means that when our Lord came to die in 33AD, this was only a demonstration of what He had done for us.

This is why we read the verse
Psalm 16:10-11 (New King James Version)
10 For You will not leave my soul in Sheol, Nor will You allow Your Holy One to see corruption.

Acts 2:27 (New King James Version)
27 For You will not leave my soul in Hades, Nor will You allow Your Holy One to see corruption.

Acts 2:30-32 (New King James Version)
30 Therefore, being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him that of the fruit of his body, according to the flesh, He would raise up the Christ to sit on his throne, 31 He, foreseeing this, spoke concerning the resurrection of the Christ, that His soul was not left in Hades, nor did His flesh see corruption. 32 This Jesus God has raised up, of which we are all witnesses.

It was a parable, a picture pointing to the spiritual truth. A parable is an earthly story with a spiritual meaning. Christ dying on the cross is the earthly story pointing to the fact that Christ had already paid for our sins.

This is why in the old Testament there were blood and meat sacrifices. Allow me to pose a question. Was it the blood and meat that was sacrificed that saved a person? was it the blood of the goat or lamb or sheep or dove that saved the person? During passover in Egypt before the Exodus, was it the blood on the door frame that saved Israel from death? no, this was only a shadow, a sign, a earthly representation or the spiritual truth and that is that the Lamb, who is Christ, is the the sacrifice, by the blood of the lamb we have been saved.

The proof text concerning not leaving His soul in Hell, points to the fact that Christ did infact “NOT” die spiritually on the Cross. His physical body died, however His soul never saw death, never saw corruption, never saw hell, this has been mistranslated and misunderstood and taught alltogether incorrectly. Though through these verse, I began to understand, that indeed Christ has already chosen those He plans to save, that is predestination, and that the penalty for sin, which is death, had already been paid for by Christ before the foundations, for those He plans to save, This is why Enoch and Elijah were saved, because there sins had already been paid for.

And Enoch and Elijah did not ascend into heaven or go there by there own volition, they were “taken” they were drawn, they were guided by our LORD into Heaven. The issue of men going to heaven is proved as the bible states it, and now we can harmonize the verses and understand that this is only because Christ was the Lamb slain before the foundations of the earth.

God Bless
 
Let me see if I understand you correctly. Are you saying Jesus did not, in reality, undergo His passion and death? That the Gospels are a parable?

I read in your examples the indication that Jesus Christ existed since before the world began, and that the salvific act would be confected. It does not explicitly state that the salvation was obtained before the world began. It states that it was planned, preordained, if you will.

Are you implying that the Death and Resurrection was not necessary?
 
Ceil-1 said:
Let me see if I understand you correctly. Are you saying Jesus did not, in reality, undergo His passion and death? That the Gospels are a parable?

I read in your examples the indication that Jesus Christ existed since before the world began, and that the salvific act would be confected. It does not explicitly state that the salvation was obtained before the world began. It states that it was planned, preordained, if you will.

Are you implying that the Death and Resurrection was not necessary?
Click to expand...
From the verses given, Jesus was the Lamb slain before the foundations. Jesus came to earth, took on human form, and demonstrated how He had paid for our sins. To harmonize, the verses tell us that those people who’s sins had been paid for, are written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain before the foundations. Those people who are written in this book, have been predestined for salvation, because the Christ, who is the Lamb, had then been killed, and resurrected, thereby doing all the work for salvation.

During that time, The Lamb, that is Christ, died spiritually. Because Christ is from everlasting to everlasting, it is a mystery how God[also Christ, also the Lamb] can actually “die” completely, that is spiritually, which is the eternal nature of God. But clearly the verses tell us this is the case, and so we can use words such as “demonstrate” when Jesus came to die for our sins, because the verses also tell us that “thou shall not leave thy soul in Hades, shall not leave thy soul for corruption”

Now Hades[also Sheol, also Hell, also death, also the grave, also a pit] and corruption are metaphors for death, correct. I mean when you die you are placed in the ground and you body begins to decay and corrupt. When we die, our soul is either re-born, or under the wrath of God. We only have those two options right? So it is “impossible” for God[that is Christ,that is the Lamb] to die a second time. When you are under the wrath of God, you are dead spiritually, you are in hell, you are dead forever, the verses say this is impossible for Christ, His soul was not under the wrath of God, his soul did not go to hell, did not see corruption, did not die. This is how we can understand why Christ told the thief on the cross next to Him that, “today, thou shall walk with me in Paradise.” TODAY. This is only possible because the Cross was a demonstration, meaning He had already been under the wrath of God, so He was already dead once, already in Hell once. It is impossible for this to happen twice. Which is why the verses say His soul shall not see hell or corruption. This is because Christ has already died for our sins, and so He was here to demonstrate that Love.

Now all of these verses are in complete harmony. And seem to make sense as they tie together. Though this lead me down a path… The path was that I was taught that Christ died on the Cross and that by believing this fact and on Christ, I was saved.

However, I just learned that the bible does not say that, It just doesn’t, not when you look at all the information.And so I am being asked to deny the death and resurrection of Christ, of the Lamb, as if this is any less important than the humanly earthly story of Christ demonstrating how He had already died. I can’t simply not dismiss this, It seems rather important, and also incredibly different from what I always new, but to deny it would be to deny Christ right? I mean it happened, there it is, so my pasture doesn’t understand it, does that mean anything to me?

Christ did not “die” on the Cross, He died before the foundations of the earth, and so the only possible explanation for the Passion, was that it was a demonstration of how He paid for our sins, the Love He has for us. So this is a wrong teaching right? If I believe what I have been taught, then I have to discount the word of God, that would mean I have more trust in my church interpretation than in the word of God. This is not the point of the thread, do not derail please, but clearly these verses say something contrary to what my church said. I had to decide to put my faith in the word of God, that is the bible, because I seemed to read that Christ is the Lamb slain before the foundations and that He died for those He had already chosen and written about in the Book of Life of the Lamb, and they did not.

Then the second part, if I was to believe on Him, because there are many verses that clearly say that, then I would be a saved person… But what about those written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain before the foundation. That book is clearly written about as those who are predestined, so it may be possible that I might not even be written about in there, no matter how hard I believe in Him, and this fact open up another avenue of understanding.

I believe this is a good explanation, you either see it or you don’t.

God Bless
 
Hi intheBible,

Wow, you’ve done a lot of thinking about this theory. Yet, I don’t understand how
that God knows the future, means Jesus died before His crucifixion. Just how was
it that He was killed? Are you really saying He was killed before the foundation of the
world, or do you agree with NHinsider?

Also, why do you think Jesus said “no one has gone up to heaven but the Son of Man” if Enoch and Elijah went up to heaven?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top