John 3:5 simple meaning

[SB81848889]

Not always a good thing: St Peter tells us in 3:15 of his second epistle that it is the unlearned (as well as the unstable) who distort the Scripture to their destruction. I believe Scripture also has something to say about pride going before a fall…

Remember that God leads us into all truth, and since my faith is in Christ alone, I know he will keep his promise. I should not have used the word PROUD, I meant blessed.

 

[nsper7]

Remember that God leads us into all truth, and since my faith is in Christ alone, I know he will keep his promise. I should not have used the word PROUD, I meant blessed.

Well, then you are saying that either:

A) God is leading many people into division (after all, how many Protestants claim that they are following the Holy Spirit’s guidance but disagree on key issues)
B) Everyone else but you and those who completely agree with you are liars and are not guided be God
C) Everyone else but you and those who completely agree with you are mislead and delusional
D) You’re a liar
E) You’re mislead

 

[RNRobert]

Remember that God leads us into all truth, and since my faith is in Christ alone, I know he will keep his promise. I should not have used the word PROUD, I meant blessed.

But if you have different people, all reading the same Bible and claiming to be inspired by the same Holy Spirit, all teach contradictory things, how do I know which one is right.

I do believe God leads us into all truth- this is why I became Catholic!

 

[SB81848889]

You need to remember that the Bible wasn’t written in English, it was written in Greek, and without learned persons to translate it for us we would not have the Bible.

Let me ask you do you speak Greek? I’m confident that God will not leave us without his word. 2500 times it says in the bible “God hath said”, “God has spoken”, “God said” etc… I am very grateful for the scholarly work that was done to translate the Bible into English, and the King James translators actually believed that it was the word of God and treated it that way. Can you say that about most other translations ? NO?

As for your interpretation of this verse, you can’t be convinced otherwise unless you are willing to be. A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still. But it seems strange that there was complete unanimity concerning this verse for the first 1,600 years of its existence. All agreed that it referred to baptism. Even the early reformers. So why do you think your understanding is superior to men like Augustine, Luther, Knox, Calvin and Wesley? You do know who these men are don’t you?

Because that interpretation at least the interpretation that you cannot be saved without baptism contradicts many other parts of the bible. And the context is Jesus and nicodemus are talking about being born from the womb. You cant just insert whatever you want into the verse. There’s only one baptism, and that’s the Holy spirits.

 

[SB81848889]

Well, then you are saying that either:

A) God is leading many people into division (after all, how many Protestants claim that they are following the Holy Spirit’s guidance but disagree on key issues)
B) Everyone else but you and those who completely agree with you are liars and are not guided be God
C) Everyone else but you and those who completely agree with you are mislead and delusional
D) You’re a liar
E) You’re mislead

A) If there is division in understanding scripture its not Gods word that is the problem, It is sinful man and his blinders that keep us from understanding all of the wisdom God wants to show us. Just because you and 1 billion other people are convinced about a key issue just means 1 billion people may have been deceived. Just read Revelation and you can see just how many people are being led down the broad path that seems right to men, but leads to destruction. Remember you want to be in the minority during the end times.

B,C) Your right that seems right to men, but God is saving souls with the preaching of his word not the doctrine of your religion.

D) No I am not lying, just trying to share the truth as best I can.

E) We are all mislead about many things, otherwise we would have complete knowledge of the entirety of Gods word. Since we don’t, we have no choice but to rely on the Holy Spirit for wisdom and Knowledge, and that’s exactly what he said we should do.

 

[SB81848889]

But if you have different people, all reading the same Bible and claiming to be inspired by the same Holy Spirit, all teach contradictory things, how do I know which one is right.

I do believe God leads us into all truth- this is why I became Catholic!

Your not really relying on God to show you. You are relying on religion. You must rest in Gods promise and seek no other proofs. Just read the Bible in prayer with humility and love and ask God to show you his truth and his will. No one can love God and worship him in spirit and truth without personally calling on him as a child to a father. Not through the veil of religion do we find God,

 

[RNRobert]

Your not really relying on God to show you. You are relying on religion. You must rest in Gods promise and seek no other proofs. Just read the Bible in prayer with humility and love and ask God to show you his truth and his will. No one can love God and worship him in spirit and truth without personally calling on him as a child to a father. Not through the veil of religion do we find God,

I rested on God’s promise. I read the Bible with humility and asked God to show me His truth and will. With His help I was able to sort through the lies given by spiritual quacks and charlatans and led me to the Church His Son founded.
Too often, the problem with “Bible only” Christians is that they become spiritual Lone Rangers with a “just me, Jesus, and the Bible mentality.” This “denomination of one” (to borrow the US Army’s slogan) mentality is NOT what Christ intended! We are told in Hebrews 13:17 to “Obey your leaders and defer to them.” Now, which leaders am I to obey?
You also treat the word religion’ as if it were a dirty word. This is not so. James tells us in 1:27 of his epistle that “religion that is pure and undefiled before God and the Father is this: to care for orphans and widows in their affliction and keep oneself unstained by the world.” Looks like “religion” is in fact a good thing,

 

[SB81848889]

5: Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
John 3:5

Your interpretation of the water being a natural birth does not concur with other passages in Scripture:

That’s because Jesus didn’t talk to anyone else about being born again, Its just simply the context of the verse. Jesus wasn’t talking to you and me about how to be saved, he was answering a mans question very candidly. I can go to Israel and cross the Jordan river, but I don’t think I would be fulfilling prophecy. Joshua did, and he’s who God commanded to cross. This is a good lesson in interpreting verses of scripture.

25: I will sprinkle clean water upon you, and you shall be clean from all your uncleannesses, and from all your idols I will cleanse you.
26: A new heart I will give you, and a new spirit I will put within you; and I will take out of your flesh the heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh.
27: And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to observe my ordinances.
Ezekiel 36: 25-27

The Prophet is speaking the Words of God referring to the sanctification of Israel, after having profaned His Name. Sounds very Baptismal. This, by the way, leads straight to the New Testament writings of St. Paul:

So your saying God also literally ripped out their hearts and put a new beating heart back instead. Also what is it that made them obey his laws? Not the water, but the new heart, the water can only be symbolic in this passage, because the rest of the passage is symbolic. Plus its God doing the sprinkling, so their is no work of man here.

15: They show that what the law requires is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness and their conflicting thoughts accuse or perhaps excuse them
Romans 2:15

The laws are written in our hearts, thanks to the regenerative power of water and Spirit.

I don’t see any mention of water in this verse, but I do see a mention of what the water symbolizes.

5: he saved us, not because of deeds done by us in righteousness, but in virtue of his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal in the Holy Spirit,
Titus 3: 5

This is also not speaking of a physical rebirth, but rather a washing of the foolish, disobedient, and the deceived (3:3).

Again Jesus was only talking to nicodemus about being born again and crawling back into his mothers womb, so I am pretty sure the rest of the bible is only speaking about the baptism of the Holy Spirit and not water. Just like this verse you quote here is.

26: that he might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word,
Ephesians 5:26

This passages speaks of the sanctification, not physical birth, of the Church.

Yes I agree, and if you want to say the water symbolizes repentance or the word you will get no argument from me.

Here, then, those miscreants provoke questions. And so they say, “Baptism is not necessary for them to whom faith is sufficient; for withal, Abraham pleased God by a sacrament of no water, but of faith.” But in all cases it is the later things which have a conclusive force, and the subsequent which prevail over the antecedent. Grant that, in days gone by, there was salvation by means of bare faith, before the passion and resurrection of the Lord. But now that faith has been enlarged, and is become a faith which believes in His nativity, passion, and resurrection, there has been an amplification added w the sacrament, viz., the sealing act of baptism; the clothing, in some sense, of the faith which before was bare, and which cannot exist now without its proper law. For the law of baptizing has been imposed, and the formula prescribed: “Go,” He saith, “teach the nations, baptizing them into the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit.” The comparison with this law of that definition, “Unless a man have been reborn of water and Spirit, he shall not enter into the kingdom of the heavens,” has tied faith to the necessity of baptism.
Tertullian “On Baptism” 160-240 AD

The word Baptism is derived from the Greek word, bapto, or baptizo, to wash or to immerse. It signifies, therefore, that washing is of the essential idea of the sacrament.
Catholic Encyclopedia “Baptism”

“Baptism is the external ablution of the body, performed with the prescribed form of words.”
St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theologica, III:66:1

Key phrase in Tertullian’s comment is “For the law of baptizing has been imposed, and the formula prescribed:”

Obviously he believes in a works salvation or legalsim. When we go outside the bible for answers we will undoubtedly fall into error.

 

[SB81848889]

I rested on God’s promise. I read the Bible with humility and asked God to show me His truth and will. With His help I was able to sort through the lies given by spiritual quacks and charlatans and led me to the Church His Son founded.
Too often, the problem with “Bible only” Christians is that they become spiritual Lone Rangers with a “just me, Jesus, and the Bible mentality.” This “denomination of one” (to borrow the US Army’s slogan) mentality is NOT what Christ intended! We are told in Hebrews 13:17 to “Obey your leaders and defer to them.” Now, which leaders am I to obey?
You also treat the word religion’ as if it were a dirty word. This is not so. James tells us in 1:27 of his epistle that “religion that is pure and undefiled before God and the Father is this: to care for orphans and widows in their affliction and keep oneself unstained by the world.” Looks like “religion” is in fact a good thing,

I have no problem obeying my leaders, I pay taxes, I don’t commit crime, but religious organizations are not our leaders, they have become YOUR leader because they have deceived you into believing you need them and their sacraments, priests, rituals, Idols, incense and works to go to heaven. You are a slave to Catholicism not Christ. And you will serve your master.

Religion is a dirty word, It has been responsible for millions and billions of people to rely on a sacrament or priest or prayer or saint or bread or wine or ritual for their salvation and not Jesus Christ and his finished work. If you go to your church on Sunday and only feed orphans and widows and keep yourselves free of worldly things like money then that I would call a good religion also.

 

[SB81848889]

You are now just spewing out Evangelical Protestant propaganda. As I just said, Martin Luther held a ‘Catholic’ view on Baptism. The Catholic Church is the historical Church founded by Christ and outside of her there is no Salvation. The Church is the Body of Christ, founded by Him and guided by Him. In terms of Scripture, that ‘dark age’ does not fly. Most people were illiterate and, before the printing press, books of any kind were highly expensive. The only time the Church forbid Bibles was if they contained heretical information (i.e. containing Gnostic Gospels). All Protestantism has given the world is division, you cannot even agree with your ‘founder’ and I am sure I could find dozens of Protestants that would disagree with your position. It all comes down to personal opinion. You can claim the Holy Spirit led you to your interpretation, but so does every other Protestant. So, thus, you are saying God sows discord. That is the greatest failure to any Protestant argument. So, where was the Church before Martin Luther? And don’t give me that junk about there being some ‘hidden true Church’ for that fails on multiple levels. 1) There is no historical record of it. When the Catholic Church charged a group with heresy, it was not done secretively. Evidence was published and records kept. 2) Jesus said not to keep our faith hidden from others. Thus, you’d be admitting that for 1500 years, the ‘hidden True Church’ was committing utter disobedience. Face it, you can argue until you’re blue in the face, but you have neither history nor logic on your side. History, since we can trace Catholic teaching back to the Apostles. Logic, because as with any argument with Protestants, I can probably find some Protestant who disagrees with your interpretation.

Again, if it is so simple, then why do even many ‘Sola Scriptura’ Protestants disagree with you? Either you are very prideful or very foolish or both. BTW- where does Scripture confirm the idea of Sola Scriptura?

My salvation does not rest in Martin Luther, so there is bound to be many things he said that I don’t agree with and feel contradict the word of God. He is not infallible. The Holy Spirit is infallible. Besides the majority of Martin Luther’s life was a poor example for a christian to follow. I’m sure your aware of his later writings. However his theology of salvation by faith alone and receiving Gods righteousness in place of our own is exactly what the word of God says, and that’s what has been hidden from people during the dark ages.

“History is the version of past events that people have decided to agree upon.”
Napoleon Bonaparte

Don’t put your faith in history, put it in Christ.

 

[SB81848889]

How about our salvation in the religion that Christ made for us to follow?

*“We are tied to God and bound to Him [religati] by the bond of piety, and it is from this, and not, as Cicero holds, from careful consideration [relegendo], that religion has received its name.”*Lactantius: “Divine Institutes”, IV, xxviii

We have salvation only IN CHRIST, not religion no matter what the definition. How do we get in Christ? By believing what God has said in his word, Jesus Christ is the son of God and was crucified and died for your sins and rose again on the 3rd day for your justification according to the scriptures. ( NOT sacred tradition, NOT water baptism, NOT communion, NOT purgatory, NOT confession, NOT RELIGION. )

Can you explain, then, how it is that between 40,000 and 50,000 different religious denominations have sprung up, all believing the same Bible, all claiming to have the ability to understand that same Bible from that same Holy Spirit? Remember that the Church (the “One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church) has always believed as “One” Church meaning that we are of “One” faith, of “One” Baptism, of “One” Lord. The Only Christian “Religion” that has survived since Christ walked the earth. Does not the consistency of this Church show you something? Remember the passage and tell me how your Church stacks up:

*38 And now, therefore, I say to you, refrain from these men, and let them alone; for if this council or this work be of men, it will come to nought;
39 But if it be of God, you cannot overthrow it, lest perhaps you be found even to fight against God. And they consented to him.*Acts 5:38-39

I am Catholic. which means universal, I have a fellowship that is universal to all people who believe the gospel and I am unified with them in the body of Christ. I am not Roman Catholic.

Your thinking in mans ways and mans superstitions, and mans logic when you say One church institution here on earth. We need to worship in Spirit and truth. Christians are not called to build the kingdom today, we are to sow the word of God to a lost world, Jesus will build his kingdom when he comes again, Its religion that has blinded you to think you are doing anything for God. You are just piling up filthy rags.

All denominations and religions are causing the divide into 50,000 sects. All men want to do is serve this world and their flesh. Religion is serving up a big dish of Pride, Greed, Idolatry, Rebellion, Hate, War, Government, Slavery, Persecution, Satan Worship, Legalism, Flesh, Dead works, the list goes on and on just choose your religion and choose your poison. The fruit of the Spirit is Love, Joy, Peace, Long suffering, Patience, Kindness, Faithfulness, Goodness, Gentleness, Self control.

For me I choose Christ and put away Religion.

You may have a hard time proving this point. Remember the structure of the Mass. Every day a minimum of two Scriptural readings plus several Psalms (none of these readings or Psalms repeating day to day but progressively moving through the Bible through a three year cycle). On Sundays there are 3 Scriptural readings and the Psalms. While the structure of the Mass took some time to become developed into its existence as we see it today, the Church has always read Scripture in Church. That is the reason the Canon of Scripture, agreed upon in 382 AD at the Council of Rome, was put together in the first place. The Canon was a list of Books that were to be read in Church. This was the Church’s mandatory teaching of what is to be read in Church, and it’s lasted for over 1600 years officially, and almost 2000 years unofficially (remember that for over 300 years the Church was persecuted and people were dying in mass numbers making it nearly impossible to uniformly develop the structure of the Mass and of the readings during the Mass.) I’m not sure where your argument is coming from.

Martin Luther’s first problem with the church was about indulgences, and people were deceived into believing that they needed to purchase these pieces of paper to help them get into heaven, The gospel was not being given to the people. The mass is a sacrifice of Jesus again and contrary to the bible, yet your still believing in your church and hoping that they are right and relying on sacred tradition whenever the bible is contrary to your religion.

Your still buying indulgences, its just under a different name.

If you believe that Catholics believe their salvation to be in anyone other than Jesus you don’t know Catholicism (no offense, I’m just pointing out factual truth)

Acts 4:12 says that salvation is found in no one other than Christ, “for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.” This verse and many others make it abundantly clear that Christ is the only Savior of the world. That is precisely why the Church says that its existence in the world is necessary for salvation: because we would not know of Christ had it not been for the Church. In Acts 4:12, Peter is pointing to Christ as the Savior, but he does so as an authoritative witness to Christ, as his chosen apostle. The people to whom Peter was preaching would not know of Christ except through his witness as the leader of the Church. So we can say that the proclamation of Christ by the Church is necessary for salvation. Outside of Christ there is no salvation and, by implication, outside the Church there is no salvation.catholic.com/thisrock/2004/0403sbs.asp

You would not know of Christ if it wasn’t for the gospel. Faith comes by hearing and hearing comes from the word of God. So someone had to read it to be able to have it heard. This can be done in a church or it can be done on a dirt road.

Again you are wrong, In Acts 4:12 the people would not know about Christ unless Peter PREACHED the gospel. Your trying to establish Peter as some figure head, but the only saving thing about that verse is the gospel of Jesus Christ being preached, not who did the preaching.

 

[SB81848889]

I’m not quite sure why you keep saying that. Have you read this:

“And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing.” (2 Corinthians 4:3)

And this:

“I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you.” (John 6:53)

If you’re not receiving the Holy Eucharist then you’re perishing, and that’s why the Gospel is veiled to you. And because the Gospel is veiled to you, you are perishing. Disobedience is a vicious cycle, that you can only break free from by repentance, and then obedience. So do what Jesus told you to do - listen to the Church (Matt. 18:17).

Whats the gospel you received, so I can be sure its not you who its veiled too.

 

[jlhargus]

Remember that God leads us into all truth, and since my faith is in Christ alone, I know he will keep his promise. I should not have used the word PROUD, I meant blessed.

JL: Yes Christ keeps his promise and leads US His Church as a people into all truth not individuals. [ACTS 2:41 they that RECEIVED HIS WORD WERE BAPTIZED 42 THEY CONTINUED STEDFASTLY in the APOSTLES DOCTRINE FELLOWSHIP in BREAKING BREAD and in PRAYERS.

1Cor 1:9 God is faithful you were called into THE FELLOWSHIP OF his Son JESUS CHRIST. 10 I appeal to you BRETHREN by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ that all of you AGREE that there be no dissensions among you that you BE UNITED in the same mind and the same judgment.]

1Jn 4:6 We are of God Whoever knows God LISTENS TO** US **and he who is not of God DOES NOT LISTEN TO US BY THIS WE KNOW the spirit of TRUTH and the spirit of ERROR

Mt18:17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, TELL IT UNTO THE CHURCH: but IF HE NEGLECT TO HEAR THE CHURCH, LET HIM BE unto thee as an HEATHEN man and a publican.

1Tm3:15 But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is THE CHURCH of the living God, the PILLAR AND GROUND OF THE TRUTH.

You can have your tradition of men sola scriptura that Tower of Babel, with its thousands of contentious groups all teaching contradicting doctrine claiming to be Holy Spirit lead using the same scriptures, yet split after split after split.

A split for every opinion and interpretation of scripture the mind of man can devise, such as your ridiculous interpretation of Jn3:5, scattering people of faith into myriads of groups no longer speaking the same faith language. The Holy Spirit gathers he does not scatter. Praise God that I recognized that Tower of Babel by his grace and came out of her, into his One Holy Catholic Apostolic Church.

 

[jlhargus]

You would not know of Christ if it wasn’t for the gospel. Faith comes by hearing and hearing comes from the word of God. So someone had to read it to be able to have it heard. This can be done in a church or it can be done on a dirt road.

Again you are wrong, In Acts 4:12 the people would not know about Christ unless Peter PREACHED the gospel. Your trying to establish Peter as some figure head, but the only saving thing about that verse is the gospel of Jesus Christ being preached, not who did the preaching.

JL: Scripture indicates, to be a valid minister one must be SENT, [Rm 10:14 …how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 how shall they preach EXCEPT THEY BE SENT?] Can an invisiable church SEND anyone?

Lk 6:12 And it came to pass in those days, that HE went out into a mountain to pray, and CONTINUED ALL NIGHT IN PRAYER to God. 13 And when it was day, he called unto him his disciples: and OF THEM HE CHOSE TWELVE, whom also he NAMED APOSTLES; JN 17:18 As you have SENT me into the world I also SENT them into the world 19 And for their sake I consecrate myself, THAT THEY ALSO MAY BE CONSECRATED IN TRUTH. 20 I do not pray for these alone but for those who will BELIEVE IN ME THROUGH THEIR WORD 21 THAT THEY ALL MAY BE ONE as you Father are in me and I in you THAT THE WORLD MAY BELIEVE you SENT ME.] Christ is praying for one specific VISIBLE sent group, the Apostles Fellowship, whom he consecrated in truth. Hearing their word and BEING ONE IN FELLOWSHIP, with THEM, the world may believe the Father sent him. I don’t think Christ meant, he would only be with that fellowship and it would only be one, just while the apostles were alive, but to the end of the world. [Mt 28:16 THE ELEVEN disciples 18 JESUS SPOKE TO THEM, ALL POWER IS GIVEN TO ME in heaven and in earth 19 GO TEACH ALL NATIONS BAPTIZING them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit 20 TEACHING to observe ALL things whatever I have COMMANDED you I AM WITH YOU always even TO THE END.] Can an invisiable church teach all nations till the end? That’s the great commission to the Church, the apostles fellowship. Christ to whom all power in heaven and earth is given, sent with his authority that apostles fellowship to TEACH ALL, to observe what he taught, they were to go to all nations (universal, catholic). Only the apostles fellowship were sent to teach all nations, with the authority of Christ. Christ promised to be with them till the end of the world. Those individuals would not be around till the end, but their SENT successors in the Apostolic Fellowship would, by sending and passing on their authority to teach, sanctify and rule by laying on of hands from bishop to bishop, in an unbroken line, till the end.

DN 2:44 And in the days of these kings shall THE GOD OF HEAVEN SET UP A KINGODM which shall never be destroyed and THE KINGDOM shall not be left to other people but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms and IT SHALL STAND FOR EVER, Lk 1:32 He shall be great, and shall be CALLED THE SON OF THE HIGHEST and the Lord GOD SHALL GIVE unto HIM THE THRONE OF HIS FATHER DAVID 32 And HE SHALL REIGN OVER THE HOUSE OF JACOB FOR EVER and OF HIS KINGDOM THERE SHALL BE NO END. [LK 22:29 I APPOINT YOU A KINGDOM as my Father has appointed me 30 That you may eat and drink AT MY TABLE IN MY KINGDOM and SIT ON THRONES JUDGING the twelve tribes of Israel 31 SIMON Satan has desired to have you 32 I have prayed for you that YOUR FAITH FAIL NOT when you are converted, STRENGTHEN YOUR BRETHREN.] When Peter is converted his faith will never fail, he is to strengthen all the brethren as Universal Pastor. Christ said Satan wanted to sift all the apostles (you plural) as wheat, but Christ prayed that only (you singular) Peter’s faith fail not, this was said in the presents of the other apostles. Christ promised Peter’s faith alone would not fail, implying all must be in union and agree with the faith of Peter. Those not in union with Peter’s faith even though they have apostolic secession can teach error. My Bishop or any number of Bishops can teach error if not in union and agreement, with the successor of Peter. JN 21:14-17 Jesus asked Peter three times, “do you love me more than these” THESE, would be the other apostles. After being asked three times and replying three times, “yes”. Christ said to Peter, the first time, “feed MY lambs”, the second time, “feed MY sheep”, the third time, “feed MY sheep”. Peter is to feed ALL the sheep in Christ’s flock, not some, but ALL the sheep Christ has purchased with his blood.

 

[jlhargus]

Whats the gospel you received, so I can be sure its not you who its veiled too.

The Gospel delivered by those SENT by Christ to TEACH the whole world till the end of time Mt28:19-. That One visible FELLOWSHIP. Acts2:41 Then THEY THAT gladly RECEIVED HIS WORD were BAPTIZED: and the same day there WERE ADDED UNTO THEM about three thousand souls. 42 And THEY CONTINUED steadfastly IN the APOSTLES’ DOCTRINE and FELLOWSHIP, and in BREAKING OF BREAD, and in PRAYERS. [Those that received his word were baptized. They were brought into the Church by baptism and CONTINUED steadfastly in the One Holy Catholic Apostolic Fellowship.]

That fellowship with whom Paul check his teaching, to be sure he was not teaching another doctrine or gospel. [Gal2:1 Then fourteen years after I WENT UP AGAIN TO JERUSALEM with Barnabas, and took Titus with me also. 2 And I went up BY REVELATION, and COMMUNICATED UNTO THEM that GOSPEL which I PREACH among the Gentiles, but privately to them which were of reputation, LEST BY ANY MEANS I SHOULD run, or HAD RUN, IN VAIN.]

Ps127:1 Unless the LORD builds the house, its builders labor in vain. Unless the LORD watches over the city, the watchmen stand guard in vain.

 

[jlhargus]

I have no problem obeying my leaders, I pay taxes, I don’t commit crime, but religious organizations are not our leaders, they have become YOUR leader because they have deceived you into believing you need them and their sacraments, priests, rituals, Idols, incense and works to go to heaven. You are a slave to Catholicism not Christ. And you will serve your master. .

JL: The sacrament of Holy Orders, ordination, by laying of hands gives the GIFT of the Holy Spirit to enable an ordained minister to fulfill his mission. [2 TIM 1:6 …stir up the GIFT OF GOD IN YOU BY THE PUTTING ON OF MY HANDS 7 GOD HAS GIVEN US the SPIRIT OF POWER. [2Tm4:2 PREACH THE WORD; be prepared in season and out of season; CORRECT, REBUKE and ENCOURAGE—WITH great patience and CAREFUL INSTRUCTION] 1Tm5:1 Do not REBUKE an older man harshly, but exhort him as if he were your father. Treat younger men as brothers, Titus 1:5 For this I left you in Crete that you should set in order …and ORDAIN ELDERS in EVERY CITY AS I APPOINTED YOU.

Titus1:7 For A BISHOP must be blameless, as THE STEWARD OF GOD; not selfwilled, not soon angry, not given to wine, no striker, not given to filthy lucre; 8 But a lover of hospitality, a lover of good men, sober, just, holy, temperate; 9 HOLDING FAST THE FAITHFUL WORD AS HE HATH BEEN TAUGHT, that he may be able BY SOUND DOCTRINE both TO EXHORT and TO CONVINCE the gainsayers. Titus1:13 This testimony is true. Therefore, REBUKE them SHARPLY, so that they will be sound in the faith] Titus2:1 But SPEAK THOU the THINGS WHICH BECOME SOUND DOCTRINE: 2 That the aged men be sober, grave, temperate, sound in faith, in charity, in patience. [Titus2:15 THESE, then, are the THINGS YOU SHOULD TEACH. ENCOURAGE and REBUKE WITH ALL AUTHORITY. Do not let anyone despise you.] Acts 14:23 when they had ORDAINED elders IN EVERY CHURCH and prayed with fasting they commended them to the Lord on whom they believed.

Acts 20:28 Take heed of yourself, and the flock over which the HOLY SPIRIT has MADE you OVERSEERS TO FEED THE CHURCH OF GOD purchased with his own blood, 1 TIM 5:17 Let the elders that RULE well be counted worthy of DOUBLE HONOUR especially they who labour in the WORD AND DOCTRINE. 1 Tin 4:13 Till I come attend to READING to EXHORTATION to DOCTRINE 14 Do not neglect THE GIFT in you GIVEN you by prophecy WITH THE LAYING ON OF the HANDS of the presbytery 16 TAKE HEED to yourself TO THE DOCTRINE continue in them for in doing this you shalt both SAVE yourself and THOSE WHO HEAR YOU.] I cannot find a VALID minister in the New Covenant who was not ordained and SENT directly by Christ including Paul, or SENT by laying on of hands in the unbroken apostolic line, either by an apostle or one they ordained. Except false teachers, who may even have been ordained by laying on of hands, but not SENT by the FELLOWSHIP. They go out on their own authority, I have no doubt they used and thought scripture supported their theology. Acts15:24 Forasmuch as we have heard that CERTAIN which WENT OUT FROM US have troubled you with words SUBVERTING YOUR SOULS saying Ye must be circumcised and keep the law: to whom WE GAVE NO SUCH COMMANDMENT

 

[SB81848889]

Friend, please allow me to help clarify for you.

2nd. Peter Chapter One verse 20 “First of all you must understand this, that no prophecy of scripture [meaning teaching] is a matter of one’s own interpretation, because no prophecy ever came by the impulse of man, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God. “

2 Cor. 4: 2 “We have renounced disgraceful, underhanded ways; we refuse to practice cunning or to tamper with God’s word, but by the open statement of the truth we would commend ourselves to every man’s conscience in the sight of God. And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled only to those who are perishing."

1 Peter 4: 17 For the time has come for judgment to begin with the household of God; and if it begins with us, what will be the end of those who do not obey the gospel of God? 18 And “If the righteous man is scarcely saved, where will the impious and sinner appear?”

*** 2nd. Tim. 3:16 All scripture is inspired by God ***and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work.

Jn.20:30 Now Jesus did many other signs in the presence of the disciples, which are not written in this book; 31* but these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in his name

1 Thess.1: 5 “for our gospel came to you not only in word, but also in power and in the Holy Spirit and with full conviction.”

Brother Nicodemus was astonished at Jesus words because he understood them only from a secular human perspective.

Eph. 4:4 “There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call, 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6 one God and Father of us all, who is above all and through all and in all. 7 But grace was given to each of us according to the measure of Christ’s gift”

Mt. 3:13"Then Jesus came from Galilee to the Jordan to John, to be baptized by him. John would have prevented him, saying, “I need to be baptized by you, and do you come to me?” But Jesus answered him, “Let it be so now; for thus it is fitting for us to fulfil all righteousness.”*** Then he consented. And when Jesus was baptized, he went up immediately from the water, and behold, the heavens were opened * and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and alighting on him; and lo, a voice from heaven, saying, “This is my beloved Son, * with whom I am well pleased.”***

Baptism is soooo important that our Perfect Christ was baptised. He didn’t need it, we do!

Mk. 16:16 16 “He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.”

Gal. 3:27 “For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.”

John 3:5 [RSV Catholic Bible] *** Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. ***

Hope this clarifies?

This is the best answer I have received yet, and I thank you friend.

We seem to have some differences of interpreting these verses, and we need to look at them in their context, and in the light of the entire word of God.

1. **2 Peter 1:20 ** That's right no man can interpret scripture. The Pope cannot interpret scripture, the church fathers cannot interpret scripture, the apostles cannot interpret scripture, The church cannot interpret scripture. If any of these MEN gave us a correct interpretation it was because of the Holy Ghost. MEN teach heresy.

You have the right verse, but your religion has taught you they can interpret scripture. Believe this verse, not the MENS teachings.

1. **2 Corinthians 4:2** Excellent verse, This verse is Paul speaking as an apostle to the Corinthians, He is telling them that he and the other apostles have the ministry of preaching the gospel, and they have put away the world and sacrificed for this calling and God has given them mercy to be able to do it. Paul is the one that is not mishandling the word of God, you are applying this verse to yourself and putting yourself in the position of Paul, I assume by you quoting this as authority for your religion. You and I are susceptible to mishandling the word of God, but this verse is only a record of Paul speaking about himself, not me or you. Context is so vital.

2. **1 Peter 4:17** As a christian we will be persecuted for our faith, Jesus came not to unite men but to divide them, In fact if your not having a difficult time in this life with friends, family and co-workers, you might want to take a deeper look at your faith to see if it is genuine. We are to take cheer in persecution, and Gods judgment of our lives. Look at Job and what he endured not knowing why he was being persecuted by everyone he knew and lost everything.

I don’t know what you meant by quoting this passage, but it has nothing to do with power for your church to judge its members. It is all about God and his righteous judgment of his children.

1. **2 Timothy 3:16** Good verse very true.We don't need sacred tradition, or philosophy, or logic, or even reason. We need the scriptures alone. God will provide the wisdom and knowledge at his own mercy for our good.

2. **John 20:30** Yes if everything that Jesus said and did were written it would fill the world. But EVERYTHING we need to be saved and live righteous was written. We don't need to add religion ( sacred tradition ) to complete our salvation. SOLA SCRIPTURA

3. **1 Thessalonians 1:5** The word is power without the power we couldn't be saved by preaching. Another good verse, but I'm not sure how your trying to apply it here.

4. **Ephesians 4:4** One faith ( Jesus Christ ) one baptism ( Blood of Jesus Christ )

5. **Matthew 3:13** I have difficulty reconciling this verse, but as far as I have been able to understand, I do believe baptism is necessary, just not for salvation. If you love me do my commandments is what Jesus said. We love him because he first loved us, and how did he love us first. By giving his life for his friends. That's salvation, Jesus giving his life for us. Everything else we do is because we love him back for saving us from the wrath of God and our sins.

6. **Mark 16:16** Still no mention of water here, remember there is only one baptism, the Holy Spirit.

7. **Galatians 3:27** Baptized into Christ. One baptism. No mention of water, water cannot put you in Christ.

 

[SB81848889]

JL: Yes Christ keeps his promise and leads US His Church as a people into all truth not individuals. [ACTS 2:41 they that RECEIVED HIS WORD WERE BAPTIZED 42 THEY CONTINUED STEDFASTLY in the APOSTLES DOCTRINE FELLOWSHIP in BREAKING BREAD and in PRAYERS.

Your confusing church with religion. The body of believers ( church ) has the truth because they believe. Your religion is not the biblical church. Again I agree that baptism is necessary, but not for salvation unless you mean the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

1Cor 1:9 God is faithful you were called into THE FELLOWSHIP OF his Son JESUS CHRIST. 10 I appeal to you BRETHREN by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ that all of you AGREE that there be no dissensions among you that you BE UNITED in the same mind and the same judgment.]

Only problem is there is now and was at the beginning antichrists and wolfs in sheeps clothing. division is the tears and unity is the wheat. Your suggesting that the Roman Catholic church has no division and thus no tears, so every single catholic is saved. Do you agree with this?

1Jn 4:6 We are of God Whoever knows God LISTENS TO** US **

and he who is not of God DOES NOT LISTEN TO US BY THIS WE KNOW the spirit of TRUTH and the spirit of ERROR

I know you have been taught that your church is led by the line of voted in apostles, so that anything the bible says about apostles your religion can claim it for themselves and keep 1 billion people in subjection. Your faith is in your church not Christ.

Mt18:17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, TELL IT UNTO THE CHURCH: but IF HE NEGLECT TO HEAR THE CHURCH, LET HIM BE unto thee as an HEATHEN man and a publican.

1Tm3:15 But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is THE CHURCH of the living God, the PILLAR AND GROUND OF THE TRUTH.

The biblical church if there even is one in this day has authority, I agree.

You can have your tradition of men sola scriptura that Tower of Babel, with its thousands of contentious groups all teaching contradicting doctrine claiming to be Holy Spirit lead using the same scriptures, yet split after split after split.

A split for every opinion and interpretation of scripture the mind of man can devise, such as your ridiculous interpretation of Jn3:5, scattering people of faith into myriads of groups no longer speaking the same faith language. The Holy Spirit gathers he does not scatter. Praise God that I recognized that Tower of Babel by his grace and came out of her, into his One Holy Catholic Apostolic Church.

you mean the One Holy Roman Catholic Apostolic Church
[/quote]

 

[Carlan]

:getholy:(Quote from Bible Answer,post112)

   speaking of baptism, the LORD is speaking of a baptism of the HOLY Spirit and washing away of spiritual sin, just like the circumcision was the cutting away of spiritual sin, to make one clean. Now they think sprinkling water on you can wash sin away somehow, yet they misinterpret the fact that it is not YOU cleaning your soul with water, it is nothing that YOU do, no WORK you do will wash that sin away, and baptizing somebody is a Work. No they don't understand that it is baptism by holy spirit. (End quote)

Hello, Bible Answer, I just would like you to understand what we as Catholic believe about Baptism and not what you say we believe,
First off. We believe all are redeemed by the Blood of Christ and we trust him alone for our salvation.
we are baptized, justified, washed clean with water in the Holy Spirit. There are not two separate baptisms, the Holy Spirit is in the waters of Baptism.
We are cleansed of the original sin of Adam our sin was not merely covered over,
we put on the new man, our innermost being must be renewed, We are sanctified by God’s loving grace, It is life long process.(We are saved,we are being saved and we hope to be saved.)
That is what we believe as Baptized Catholics and members of the Apostolic Church.
(in a nut shell)
My prayer for you Bible Answer, is that with the sincere study of Christ’s Apostolic Church you will come to embrace the fullness of his truth.:getholy::heaven::heaven:

 

[RNRobert]

I have no problem obeying my leaders, I pay taxes, I don’t commit crime, but religious organizations are not our leaders, they have become YOUR leader because they have deceived you into believing you need them and their sacraments, priests, rituals, Idols, incense and works to go to heaven. You are a slave to Catholicism not Christ. And you will serve your master.

Religion is a dirty word, It has been responsible for millions and billions of people to rely on a sacrament or priest or prayer or saint or bread or wine or ritual for their salvation and not Jesus Christ and his finished work. If you go to your church on Sunday and only feed orphans and widows and keep yourselves free of worldly things like money then that I would call a good religion also.

The passage in Hebrews I was referring to was not about civil leaders but about religious leaders.
Jesus I believe in the Sacraments because Jesus instituted them- “Unless you eat my flesh and drink my blood you have no life within you (Matt 6:54); 'If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven, if you retain the sins of any, they are retained” (John 20:23); “He who believes and is baptized will be saved” (Mark 16:16); “Is any among you sick? Let him call the elders of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord, and the prayer of faith will save the sick man and the Lord will raise him up and if he has committed sins he will be forgiven” (James 5:14-15) and so on. BTW, we do not have idols. We do have religious art, but we do not worship them, despite what you or other Protestants think.
Jesus told us in Matthew 18:16-18 that if someone sinned against us and did not listen to us to take it to the church, and if they still didn’t listen, to treat that person as a gentile or tax collector. This instruction makes no sense if Christianity is nothing more than “me, Jesus and the Bible.”
Read my post on apostolic authority (post #51). I believe you recognized the authority of the apostles to preach teach, set doctrine, discipline erring members, etc. Whatever happened to that authority?
You and BibleAnswer may try to sidestep the issue of authority, but it is at the heart of the issue. You come here to this forum telling us that we are wrong and you are right. You tell us the Holy Spirit guided you. But we are just as adamant that the Holy Spirit led us to the Catholic faith. There are others out there who read the same Bible and claim to be led by the same Holy Spirit and will claim that they say something different from both of us. How do we know YOUR interpretation of Scripture is the right one, and not somebody elses?