John 6:25-59 The Bread of Life

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Regarding John6:25-39…

It begins in a figurative style; “I am the bread of life … He who comes to me will never be hungry…”

But it ends in literal style; “Truly, truly, if you do not eat the flesh of teh Son of Man and drink his blood, you will not have life in yourselves … My flesh is the real food …”

Do you see the change in style; Why do you suppose there is a change in style?
 
Do you see the change in style; Why do you suppose there is a change in style?
Jesus spoke first in the manner of a parable, and then revealed the meaning of the parable. This was nothing new.

What was new is, in this case, the parable was literally true.

Jesus was a skilled teacher. A teacher introduces basic math before he introduces algebra.

The Church practices a similar approach today. If someone asks you, “tell me about the Catholic Church,” you don’t reply, “well, we eat the Flesh of Jesus and drink his Blood every Sunday.” You gotta lead into that one.
 
Regarding John6:25-39…

It begins in a figurative style; “I am the bread of life … He who comes to me will never be hungry…”

But it ends in literal style; “Truly, truly, if you do not eat the flesh of teh Son of Man and drink his blood, you will not have life in yourselves … My flesh is the real food …”

Do you see the change in style; Why do you suppose there is a change in style?
I see the beginning of this as getting the people to look back at the Old Testament. He wants them to see the Passover/Exodus in a new framework so he evokes the events of the Passover … the Manna come down when they were hungry, the eating of the Passover meal even the timeframe of John 6 is Passover. All of these were one time events that are remembered every year. Every Jew knew of their importance.

Now when Jesus begins the “Truly, truly” passages it is in light of what historical events had come before. Jesus now says … I am truly that Passover sacrifice which you can eat, I am truly that Manna come down which you can eat … I am the One Sacrifice. I see the necessity of doing this before the Crucifixion and Resurrection. The cart is coming before the horse in a sense. There was no way to really understand this teaching at the time it was given but after the Resurrection I am sure the Apostles reflected and said “Oh my … now I get it”. I see one of the last passages key in this … when Jesus asks “Do you also want to leave?”. The apostles stay not because of understanding … but of faith. Jesus did not require them to understand … at least not yet but what was required was faith.
 
Regarding John6:25-39…

It begins in a figurative style; “I am the bread of life … He who comes to me will never be hungry…”

But it ends in literal style; “Truly, truly, if you do not eat the flesh of teh Son of Man and drink his blood, you will not have life in yourselves … My flesh is the real food …”

Do you see the change in style; Why do you suppose there is a change in style?
Jesus already knew who among them would believe in Him and who wouldn’t, before He even engaged them… As Jesus said in Matthew, Jews want signs and Greeks want wisdom. Jesus gave both signs and wisdom here.

God incarnate, right there in front of them, teaching them face to face. And most wouldn’t believe and they left Him and didn’t return. This is not a matter of Jesus style IMO, but their (the crowds) lack of substance/faith.
 
Jesus already knew who among them would believe in Him and who wouldn’t, before He even engaged them… As Jesus said in Matthew, Jews want signs and Greeks want wisdom. Jesus gave both signs and wisdom here.

God incarnate, right there in front of them, teaching them face to face. And most wouldn’t believe and they left Him and didn’t return. This is not a matter of Jesus style IMO, but their (the crowds) lack of substance/faith.
👍 onenow1

Every day He humbles Himself, just as He did when He came from His heavenly throne into the Virgin’s womb; everyday He comes to us and let’s us see Him in lowleness, when He descends from the bosom of the Father into the hands of the priest at the altar.
__ St. Fransis of Assisi
 
Regarding John6:25-39…

It begins in a figurative style; “I am the bread of life … He who comes to me will never be hungry…”

But it ends in literal style; “Truly, truly, if you do not eat the flesh of teh Son of Man and drink his blood, you will not have life in yourselves … My flesh is the real food …”

Do you see the change in style; Why do you suppose there is a change in style?
I don’t see a “change in style” here. Both seem to be figurative language to me. Eating his flesh and drinking his blood seem to be figurative language for believing in him. No one actually takes this passage “literally,” since to literally eat flesh and drink blood would, by any definition, be cannibalism. And surely he wasn’t talking about that.

Note, I’m not saying that you can’t have a “sacramental” understanding of these words. I just don’t think you can take them “literally.”
 
I don’t see a “change in style” here. Both seem to be figurative language to me. Eating his flesh and drinking his blood seem to be figurative language for believing in him.
If Jesus is using figurative language, and considering His listeners were highly offended at what Jesus was saying, this would have been the PERFECT time for Jesus to clear the air…true?. Afterall, they left Him right after this discourse and they never came back to follow Him after that.

Was this just a big misunderstanding on their part? Why didn’t Jesus go after them? He made no attempt to clarify any misunderstanding they might have had. He just let them go…

Why?
ms:
No one actually takes this passage “literally,” since to literally eat flesh and drink blood would, by any definition, be cannibalism. And surely he wasn’t talking about that.
Jesus asked them directly, have I offended you? He knew exactly what they were thinking. Did Jesus undo anything He said? No.

After they left, did Jesus then turn to His apostles and say, gee guys I sure blew that one… or I guess I could have been clearer, or what do you guys think I said :rolleyes:.

Nope, in the midst of the mass exodus, He turns to His apostles and said “Are you going to leave me too”?
ms:
Note, I’m not saying that you can’t have a “sacramental” understanding of these words. I just don’t think you can take them “literally.”
What then is a sacrament?
 
If Jesus is using figurative language, and considering His listeners were highly offended at what Jesus was saying, this would have been the PERFECT time for Jesus to clear the air…true?. Afterall, they left Him right after this discourse and they never came back to follow Him after that.
Are you saying that because he didn’t “clear the air” that he wasn’t speaking figuratively? How does that follow exactly? I ask because then Jesus would have to give an explanation every time he was speaking figuratively or every time someone misunderstood him. But if you look at the way misunderstanding functions in John’s gospel, you’ll see that Jesus seldom corrects anyone’s misunderstanding and seldom if ever corrects the misunderstanding of unbelievers.
Was this just a big misunderstanding on their part? Why didn’t Jesus go after them? He made no attempt to clarify any misunderstanding they might have had. He just let them go…Why?
Perhaps because no one can come to belief in Jesus unless the Father ordains it (cf, 6:65). In other words, for those whom the Father has not predestined to salvation, Jesus simply doesn’t bother to give additional explanations. The function of Jesus’ preaching was twofold: It saves those destined to believe, and it condemns those who refuse. “It is for judgment that I have come into this world, so that those without sight may see and those with sight may become blind” (John 9:39). We can therefore probably conclude that Jesus didn’t explain anything to those who forsook him because they were among those who “preferred the darkness because their deeds were evil” (John 3:19).

According to John, Jesus preferred to speak figuratively (John 16:25). So unless there is good reason to take “eating flesh” and “drinking blood” in some other way, then the default should be “figurative language.”

Cheers
 
Regarding John6:25-39…

It begins in a figurative style; “I am the bread of life … He who comes to me will never be hungry…”

But it ends in literal style; “Truly, truly, if you do not eat the flesh of teh Son of Man and drink his blood, you will not have life in yourselves … My flesh is the real food …”

Do you see the change in style; Why do you suppose there is a change in style?
This is the best explanation about it that I’ve read:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=6734145#post6734145
 
This is the best explanation about it that I’ve read:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=6734145#post6734145
I don’t see any “pattern” of ambiguous statement, misunderstanding, clarification for the following reason: The clarification doesn’t always seem to “clarify” the ambiguous statement at all. In many cases it intensifies the ambiguity.

Also, when Jesus does respond to misunderstanding, it seems to be only the misunderstanding of his disciples.

Take, for example, John 2:19-21: Jesus answered them, “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.” The Jews then said “It took forty-six years to build this temple, and you will raise it up in three days? But He was speaking of the temple of His body.”

The “clarification” comes from the narrator, not Jesus. This is for the benefit of the reader who is presumably a believer. I don’t think there is a case in which Jesus is correcting the misunderstanding of unbelievers.

So in John 6:51-58, there is misunderstanding, but no clarification. But does it follow from that fact that he was speaking “literally?” And if so, what would it mean to literally eat his flesh and drink his blood, if not cannibalism? Or is there some other definition of the word “literally” that I’m unaware of.

Also, why do Catholics insist that if Jesus is speaking “figuratively,” that this is somehow “less than” or “inferior to” the times when he speaks “literally,” as if truth and reality could not be communicated through metaphor?

Jesus more often speaks in figurative language according to John 16:25. What’s the evidence that he’s breaking that “pattern” in John 6:51-58?
 
+AJPM+
I don’t see any “pattern” of ambiguous statement, misunderstanding, clarification for the following reason: The clarification doesn’t always seem to “clarify” the ambiguous statement at all. In many cases it intensifies the ambiguity.

Also, when Jesus does respond to misunderstanding, it seems to be only the misunderstanding of his disciples.

Take, for example, John 2:19-21: Jesus answered them, “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.” The Jews then said “It took forty-six years to build this temple, and you will raise it up in three days? But He was speaking of the temple of His body.”

The “clarification” comes from the narrator, not Jesus. This is for the benefit of the reader who is presumably a believer. I don’t think there is a case in which Jesus is correcting the misunderstanding of unbelievers.
Correct. St. John was writing FOR believers.
So in John 6:51-58, there is misunderstanding, but no clarification. But does it follow from that fact that he was speaking “literally?” And if so, what would it mean to literally eat his flesh and drink his blood, if not cannibalism?
The Eucharist.
Or is there some other definition of the word “literally” that I’m unaware of.
Is there? :confused:
Also, why do Catholics insist that if Jesus is speaking “figuratively,” that this is somehow “less than” or “inferior to” the times when he speaks “literally,” as if truth and reality could not be communicated through metaphor?
Jesus’ speaking “figuratively” is not “inferior” to His speaking “literally”. What we are saying is that we must recognize where Jesus was speaking figuratively and where He was speaking literally.
Jesus more often speaks in figurative language according to John 16:25. What’s the evidence that he’s breaking that “pattern” in John 6:51-58?
“More often” never means “never”.
 
+AJPM+
The Eucharist.
Let me get this straight. You claim that you “eat flesh” and “drink blood” in the Eucharist? How is this not cannibalism?

Second, where are you getting the idea of the Eucharist from John 6? The one place you’d expect to find John/Jesus talking about the Eucharist is at the Last Supper–but in John’s gospel, there’s a foot-washing, no Eucharist. This is odd given what we see in John. For example, when Jesus looks forward to something in John’s gospel–it actually takes place IN John’s gospel. So when he says, for example, “the Son of Man must be lifted up,” guess what–there’s actually a CRUCIFIXION to which this prediction corresponds. So where’s the Eucharist in John? There isn’t one. And if not, then how can you be sure that’s what John 6 is talking about?
Is there? :confused:
I’m confused. You want to say, on the one hand, Jesus was speaking literally about eating flesh and drinking blood, but on the other hand, that you’re not cannibalizing him. Your definition of “literally” sounds like what I mean by “metaphorical.” (Which makes me wonder what “metaphorical” means to you.)
Jesus’ speaking “figuratively” is not “inferior” to His speaking “literally”. What we are saying is that we must recognize where Jesus was speaking figuratively and where He was speaking literally.
Yes. And so far, no one has given me a reason to take Jesus “literally” in John 6:51-58. I think you’re failing to recognize that he’s speaking figuratively here, as was his custom (John 16:25).
“More often” never means “never”.
I never said otherwise. But “more often” does mean “usually,” as in “most of the time.” So the burden rests with you to show why this isn’t one of those “usual” times.
 
+AJPM+
Let me get this straight. You claim that you “eat flesh” and “drink blood” in the Eucharist?
Of course, for this is what the Lord Himself said:
Now as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed, and broke it, and gave it to the disciples and said, “Take, eat; this is my body.” And he took a cup, and when he had given thanks he gave it to them, saying, “Drink of it, all of you; for** this is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins**. I tell you I shall not drink again of this fruit of the vine until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father’s kingdom.” Matthew 26:26-29
And as they were eating, he took bread, and blessed, and broke it, and gave it to them, and said, “Take; this is my body.” And he took a cup, and when he had given thanks he gave it to them, and they all drank of it. And he said to them, “This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many. Truly, I say to you, I shall not drink again of the fruit of the vine until that day when I drink it new in the kingdom of God.” Mark 14:22-25
And when the hour came, he sat at table, and the apostles with him. And he said to them, “I have earnestly desired to eat this passover with you before I suffer; for I tell you I shall not eat it until it is fulfilled in the kingdom of God.” And he took a cup, and when he had given thanks he said, “Take this, and divide it among yourselves; for I tell you that from now on I shall not drink of the fruit of the vine until the kingdom of God comes.” And he took bread, and when he had given thanks he broke it and gave it to them, saying, “This is my body which is given for you. Do this in remembrance of me.” And likewise the cup after supper, saying, “This cup which is poured out for you is the new covenant in my blood.” Luke 22:14-20
How is this not cannibalism?
Cannibalism is when you eat the dead flesh of a human. When you cannibalize someone, you can never eat the soul nor the personality of the person.

The Eucharist, on the other hand, is the eating and drinking of the whole Living Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity of our Lord, Jesus Christ, in obedience of His commandments, that we may live through Him, with Him, and in Him. It is therefore not cannibalism.
Second, where are you getting the idea of the Eucharist from John 6?
Jesus Promises His Real Presence in the Eucharist
John 6:4,11-14 - on the eve of the Passover, Jesus performs the miracle of multiplying the loaves. This was prophesied in the Old Testament (e.g., 2 Kings4:43), and foreshadows the infinite heavenly bread which is Him.
Matt. 14:19, 15:36; Mark 6:41, 8:6; Luke 9:16 - these passages are additional accounts of the multiplication miracles. This points to the Eucharist.
John 6:4 - Jesus is in Capernaum on the eve of Passover, and the lambs are gathered to be slaughtered and eaten. Look what He says.
John 6:35,41,48,51 - Jesus says four times “I AM the bread from heaven.” It is He, Himself, the eternal bread from heaven.
John 6:27,31,49 - there is a parallel between the manna in the desert which was physically consumed, and this “new” bread which must be consumed.
John 6:51-52- then Jesus says that the bread He is referring to is His flesh. The Jews take Him literally and immediately question such a teaching. How can this man give us His flesh to eat?
John 6:53 - 58 - Jesus does not correct their literal interpretation. Instead, Jesus eliminates any metaphorical interpretations by swearing an oath and being even more literal about eating His flesh. In fact, Jesus says four times we must eat His flesh and drink His blood. Catholics thus believe that Jesus makes present His body and blood in the sacrifice of the Mass. Protestants, if they are not going to become Catholic, can only argue that Jesus was somehow speaking symbolically.
John 6:23-53 - however, a symbolic interpretation is not plausible. Throughout these verses, the Greek text uses the word “phago” nine times. “Phago” literally means “to eat” or “physically consume.” Like the Protestants of our day, the disciples take issue with Jesus’ literal usage of “eat.” So Jesus does what?
John 6:54, 56, 57, 58 - He uses an even more literal verb, translated as “trogo,” which means to gnaw or chew or crunch. He increases the literalness and drives his message home. Jesus will literally give us His flesh and blood to eat. The word “trogo” is only used two other times in the New Testament (in Matt. 24:38 and John 13:18) and it always means to literally gnaw or chew meat. While “phago” might also have a spiritual application, “trogo” is never used metaphorically in Greek. So Protestants cannot find one verse in Scripture where “trogo” is used symbolically, and yet this must be their argument if they are going to deny the Catholic understanding of Jesus’ words. Moreover, the Jews already knew Jesus was speaking literally even before Jesus used the word “trogo” when they said “How can this man give us His flesh to eat?” (John 6:52).
John 6:55 - to clarify further, Jesus says “For My Flesh is food indeed, and My Blood is drink indeed.” This phrase can only be understood as being responsive to those who do not believe that Jesus’ flesh is food indeed, and His blood is drink indeed. Further, Jesus uses the word which is translated as “sarx.” “Sarx” means flesh (not “soma” which means body). See, for example, John 1:13,14; 3:6; 8:15; 17:2; Matt. 16:17; 19:5; 24:22; 26:41; Mark 10:8; 13:20; 14:38; and Luke 3:6; 24:39 which provides other examples in Scripture where “sarx” means flesh. It is always literal.
(continued below)
 
Jesus Promises His Real Presence in the Eucharist (continued)
John 6:55 - further, the phrases “real” food and “real” drink use the word “alethes.” “Alethes” means “really” or “truly,” and would only be used if there were doubts concerning the reality of Jesus’ flesh and blood as being food and drink. Thus, Jesus is emphasizing the miracle of His body and blood being actual food and drink.
John 6:60 - as are many anti-Catholics today, Jesus’ disciples are scandalized by these words. They even ask, “Who can ‘listen’ to it (much less understand it)?” To the unillumined mind, it seems grotesque.
John 6:61-63 - Jesus acknowledges their disgust. Jesus’ use of the phrase “the spirit gives life” means the disciples need supernatural faith, not logic, to understand His words.
John 3:6 - Jesus often used the comparison of “spirit versus flesh” to teach about the necessity of possessing supernatural faith versus a natural understanding. In Mark 14:38 Jesus also uses the “spirit/flesh” comparison. The spirit is willing but the flesh is weak. We must go beyond the natural to understand the supernatural. In 1 Cor. 2:14,3:3; Rom 8:5; and Gal. 5:17, Paul also uses the “spirit/flesh” comparison to teach that unspiritual people are not receiving the gift of faith. They are still “in the flesh.”
John 6:63 - Protestants often argue that Jesus’ use of the phrase “the spirit gives life” shows that Jesus was only speaking symbolically. However, Protestants must explain why there is not one place in Scripture where “spirit” means “symbolic.” As we have seen, the use of “spirit” relates to supernatural faith. What words are spirit and life? The words that we must eat Jesus’ flesh and drink His blood, or we have no life in us.
John 6:66-67 - many disciples leave Jesus, rejecting this literal interpretation that we must eat His flesh and drink His blood. At this point, these disciples really thought Jesus had lost His mind. If they were wrong about the literal interpretation, why wouldn’t Jesus, the Great Teacher, have corrected them? Why didn’t Jesus say, “Hey, come back here, I was only speaking symbolically!”? Because they understood correctly.
Mark 4:34 - Jesus always explained to His disciples the real meanings of His teachings. He never would have let them go away with a false impression, most especially in regard to a question about eternal salvation.
John 6:37 - Jesus says He would not drive those away from Him. They understood Him correctly but would not believe.
John 3:5,11; Matt. 16:11-12 - here are some examples of Jesus correcting wrong impressions of His teaching. In the Eucharistic discourse, Jesus does not correct the scandalized disciples.
John 6:64,70 - Jesus ties the disbelief in the Real Presence of His Body and Blood in the Eucharist to Judas’ betrayal. Those who don’t believe in this miracle betray Him.
The one place you’d expect to find John/Jesus talking about the Eucharist is at the Last Supper–but in John’s gospel, there’s a foot-washing, no Eucharist. This is odd given what we see in John. For example, when Jesus looks forward to something in John’s gospel–it actually takes place IN John’s gospel. So when he says, for example, “the Son of Man must be lifted up,” guess what–there’s actually a CRUCIFIXION to which this prediction corresponds. So where’s the Eucharist in John? There isn’t one. And if not, then how can you be sure that’s what John 6 is talking about?
St. John’s account of the Gospel is one of the latter works historically, and there are already many accounts of the Institution of the Eucharist during the Last Supper, so many Bible scholars have speculated that St. John decided to forgo that as too redundant for his account.

However, if you think that only the washing of feet happened in St John’s account of the Eucharist, then you are sadly mistaken.

Let us first read John 6:70-71:
Code:
[70] Jesus answered them, "Did I not choose you, the twelve, and one of you is a devil?"
[71] He spoke of Judas the son of Simon Iscariot, for he, one of the twelve, was to betray him.
Where next in St. John’s account of the Gospel was Judas Iscariot linked to A or THE devil? Let me give you a hint:
Code:
And **during supper**, when the devil had already put it into the heart of Judas Iscariot, Simon's son, to betray him... John 13:2
Now look what happens to someone who takes the Bread of Life without discerning the Lord’s Body:
Code:
So when he [Jesus] had dipped the morsel, he gave it to Judas, the son of Simon Iscariot. Then after the morsel, Satan entered into him. Jesus said to him, "What you are going to do, do quickly." John 13:26-27
I’m confused. You want to say, on the one hand, Jesus was speaking literally about eating flesh and drinking blood, but on the other hand, that you’re not cannibalizing him. Your definition of “literally” sounds like what I mean by “metaphorical.” (Which makes me wonder what “metaphorical” means to you.)

Yes. And so far, no one has given me a reason to take Jesus “literally” in John 6:51-58. I think you’re failing to recognize that he’s speaking figuratively here, as was his custom (John 16:25).

I never said otherwise. But “more often” does mean “usually,” as in “most of the time.” So the burden rests with you to show why this isn’t one of those “usual” times.
See above.
 
+AJPM+
Of course, for this is what the Lord Himself said:
So when he “took bread,” and said, “this is my body,” you’re taking that literally (even though it says “bread”). If so, then when you eat his “body,” you’re cannibalizing him. Don’t misunderstand what I’m saying. I simply trying to draw out the logical conclusions of your position. I suppose we’re all some kind of cannibal. I’m just a “metaphorical” cannibal, since to me, “eating flesh” and “drinking blood” means believing in Jesus. But I’m not sure what kind of cannibal you are since you keep claiming to be taking Jesus “literally.”

Here’s what I’m taking for granted:
  1. Eating human flesh is cannibalism (which means eating the flesh of your own species).
  2. Drinking human blood is vampirism (at least according to pop culture).
  3. If we take Jesus literally, then we’re guilty of 1 and 2 above.
    Therefore, we probably shouldn’t take him literally.
Cannibalism is when you eat the dead flesh of a human. When you cannibalize someone, you can never eat the soul nor the personality of the person.
I didn’t know souls and personalities were edible.
The Eucharist, on the other hand, is the eating and drinking of the whole Living Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity of our Lord, Jesus Christ, in obedience of His commandments, that we may live through Him, with Him, and in Him. It is therefore not cannibalism.
Sure it is. You’re just adding “soul” and “divinity” to “body” and “blood.” If you’re taking the Eucharistic words “literally,” you can’t really escape the conclusion that you’re a cannibal. As I said before–I’m one too. I’m just a “metaphorical cannibal.” But I’ll give you props, because your cannibalism is “real.” I just don’t think it has anything to do with what Jesus meant when he said “this is my body and blood.”
 
I don’t see a “change in style” here. Both seem to be figurative language to me. Eating his flesh and drinking his blood seem to be figurative language for believing in him. No one actually takes this passage “literally,” since to literally eat flesh and drink blood would, by any definition, be cannibalism. And surely he wasn’t talking about that.

Note, I’m not saying that you can’t have a “sacramental” understanding of these words. I just don’t think you can take them “literally.”
Do you even understand what the term Paschal Lamb means?!?! You should study the Passover more, and then start reflecting on what John the Baptist meant when he called Jesus the Lamb of God. What happened to the Passover Lamb?
 
+AJPM+
So when he “took bread,” and said, “this is my body,” you’re taking that literally (even though it says “bread”). If so, then when you eat his “body,” you’re cannibalizing him. Don’t misunderstand what I’m saying. I simply trying to draw out the logical conclusions of your position. I suppose we’re all some kind of cannibal. I’m just a “metaphorical” cannibal, since to me, “eating flesh” and “drinking blood” means believing in Jesus. But I’m not sure what kind of cannibal you are since you keep claiming to be taking Jesus “literally.”

Here’s what I’m taking for granted:
  1. Eating human flesh is cannibalism (which means eating the flesh of your own species).
  2. Drinking human blood is vampirism (at least according to pop culture).
  3. If we take Jesus literally, then we’re guilty of 1 and 2 above.
    Therefore, we probably shouldn’t take him literally.
That is the problem, Miguel. Why are you using the wisdom of the world in understanding God’s Wisdom? 🤷
I didn’t know souls and personalities were edible.

Sure it is. You’re just adding “soul” and “divinity” to “body” and “blood.” If you’re taking the Eucharistic words “literally,” you can’t really escape the conclusion that you’re a cannibal. As I said before–I’m one too. I’m just a “metaphorical cannibal.” But I’ll give you props, because your cannibalism is “real.” I just don’t think it has anything to do with what Jesus meant when he said “this is my body and blood.”
In other words, you are saying what the disciples of Jesus said back then: “This is a hard saying; who can listen to it?” (John 6:60)

And thus I answer you with Jesus’ words: “Do you take offense at this? Then what if you were to see the Son of man ascending where he was before?” (John 6:61-62)

Now this is interesting. Jesus verified what He just said about His Flesh being eaten and His Blood bring drunk by comparing it to His Ascension into Heaven. Is Jesus’ Ascension to Heaven “figurative” or “literal”?
Do you even understand what the term Paschal Lamb means?!?! You should study the Passover more, and then start reflecting on what John the Baptist meant when he called Jesus the Lamb of God. What happened to the Passover Lamb?
👍

I eagerly await Miguel Sastre’s answer to your question zz912.

And oh! Welcome to Christ’s Church! :tiphat:
 
where are you getting the idea of the Eucharist from John 6? The one place you’d expect to find John/Jesus talking about the Eucharist is at the Last Supper–but in John’s gospel, there’s a foot-washing, no Eucharist. This is odd given what we see in John. For example, when Jesus looks forward to something in John’s gospel–it actually takes place IN John’s gospel. So when he says, for example, “the Son of Man must be lifted up,” guess what–there’s actually a CRUCIFIXION to which this prediction corresponds. So where’s the Eucharist in John? There isn’t one. And if not, then how can you be sure that’s what John 6 is talking about
It is widely believed that John wrote his gospel as a supplement to the synoptic gospels. The synoptic gospels were recorded first, and served as a catechetical basis for Christians. John, being the great mystic, wanted to take Christians into a deeper awareness of the Christian Faith.

With this in mind, the synoptic gospels taught how the Eucharist came to be, showing its origins at the Last Supper. Because that was well known by the time John wrote his gospel, he used the Bread of Life Discourse (John 6) to focus on what the Eucharist is (the Body & Blood of Christ) and what it is for (eternal life). He wants the reader to ask himself, “Hey, where’s the Eucharist? How can there be a gospel without the Eucharist?” And then the reader is brought to the realization that the Eucharist is, indeed, there, being described in John 6.

When John describes the foot washing at the Last Supper it serves two purposes. The first is to teach Christians that we are fed, nourished and empowered by the Eucharist for a purpose, and that purpose is loving, charitable service to others. The virtue of humility is also stressed, because the task of washing someone’s feet was performed by the lowliest of servants.

The second purpose of the foot washing in John is to demonstrate that at the Last Supper Jesus instituted his priesthood. If we look for a parallel between the foot washing event in John and the Old Testament, we come across the ordination rite of Aaron and his sons as the initial Levitical priesthood. They were commanded to wash their hands and feet prior to performing priestly service (see Exodus 30:19) but when they were first ordained, Moses was the one who washed them:

And Moses said to the congregation, “This is the thing which the Lord has commanded to be done.” And Moses brought Aaron and his sons, and washed them with water. (Leviticus 8:5,6, RSV) This passage is followed by Moses adorning Aaron in the priestly garments.

Furthermore, the Holy Land was divided among the Jewish tribes except for the Levites. Because they were the priests, God was to be considered their portion rather than anything that was earthly. In the Septuagint version of the Old Testament the Greek word for “portion” is “meris”, and it is used almost exclusively in a priestly context. For example: And the Lord said to Aaron, “You shall have no inheritance in the land, neither shall you have any portion (meris) among them; I am your portion (meris) and your inheritance among the people of Israel.” (Numbers 18:20). We also see this in Deut. 10:9 and Josh 18:7.

Now, consider all this in light with what Jesus said to Peter at the Last Supper:
“If I do not wash your feet, you have no portion (meris) in me.” (John 13:8) The apostles were ordained by Jesus to be the new priesthood of his Church.

Miguel, to answer your last question (“So where’s the Eucharist in John? There isn’t one. And if not, then how can you be sure that’s what John 6 is talking about?”), in adition to what I stated above, keep in mind that by the time John wrote his gospel, Christians had been celebrating the Mass for decades. In each of these Masses they received the Eucharist after hearing the words of institution, “This is my Body, this is my Blood.” So when John wrote the Bread of Life discourse (“You must eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood”), what do you suppose he thought his readers would interpret this as, if not the Eucharist?
 
I haven’t read the whole conversation, but I’d like to throw in these points:
  1. There are forty-odd words in Aramaic for “this represents” or “this stands for”. Jesus used none of them when saying “This is my body” or “I am the bread of life”. He used the word that meant “This is”.
  2. In John 6:66, it says that many people left Jesus after He finished speaking. Firstly, these people would’ve known the Jewish food laws and which specific laws Jesus was going against by saying this. If you take the position that He was being symbolic or figurative, as I assume, note this. Nowhere does Jesus try to clarify or restate his words. If Jesus was being figurative, why didn’t he stop and clarify that he was indeed being figurative? Maybe it’s because He meant his words literally. Also, Jesus says to the Apostles, “This is a hard teaching, who can accept it?” Why would something merely symbolic be a hard teaching?
  3. The Eucharist CAN’T, repeat, CAN’T be cannibalism. Jesus says it Himself, “My flesh is true food and my blood is true drink.” “Unless you eat my flesh and drink my blood, you have no life in you”. Jesus says it Himself that his body is for eating and drinking.
 
Are you saying that because he didn’t “clear the air” that he wasn’t speaking figuratively? How does that follow exactly? I ask because then Jesus would have to give an explanation every time he was speaking figuratively or every time someone misunderstood him.
Have you counted how many times Jesus restates Himself to these guys in this discourse? They were actually expressing the same difficulites to Jesus over what He was saying, that you express now. How many times did Jesus restate Himself to them? Notice He didn’t convince them. If Jesus was speaking figuratively and they understoiod Him to speak figuratively, why did they leave?
ms:
But if you look at the way misunderstanding functions in John’s gospel, you’ll see that Jesus seldom corrects anyone’s misunderstanding and seldom if ever corrects the misunderstanding of unbelievers.
Jesus IS correcting their thinking. That’s exactly what He is doing. But He doesn’t force anyone to believe.
ms:
Perhaps because no one can come to belief in Jesus unless the Father ordains it (cf, 6:65).
And just who is it that the Father wants?

1 First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men, 2 for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life, godly and respectful in every way. 3 This is good, and it is acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 1 Tim 2:1-4]

Anybody left out in that desire? Not that I see. Does God hold back needed graces from some people so they will fail? Not that I see.

Since He desires EVERYONE, He must give enough grace for EVERYONE to be saved and come to the knowledge of Him…true?

That way no one can say in the end I got screwed. I got shortchanged. God sand bagged me. He didn’t treat me fair. Nope. He doesn’t predestine capriciously. A person really DOES make their own choice with ample grace given to make the right choices…

That’s why in the end, a person really CAN be held responsible and guilty for the choices they make and the consequences of their decisions…
ms:
According to John, Jesus preferred to speak figuratively (John 16:25). So unless there is good reason to take “eating flesh” and “drinking blood” in some other way, then the default should be “figurative language.”
If Jesus was talking figuratively, and they understood Him to be speaking figuratively, why then did they leave?
 
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