John 6:25-59 The Bread of Life

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I don’t see a “change in style” here. Both seem to be figurative language to me. Eating his flesh and drinking his blood seem to be figurative language for believing in him.
It is not “believing in him”, whatever that means but “believing him”. Can you take him at his word or not? In reality what you do is to deny Jesus meant what he said, I see this paralleling the question Jesus asks … is it easier to forgive sins or tell the man to get up and walk? Why so easy to believe 5000 people could be fed by 2 fish and 5 loaves but Jesus cannot give himself? Why is not the feeding of the multitudes “figuartive” or “symbolic”?

Put yourself there, you witnessed 5 loaves and 2 fish feeding everyone. You had more than enough to eat so you willingly get on a boat in an attempt to listen to this man so more. The crowd sought him out … Jesus did not seek them out (he had gone across to Capernum). Why would they seek out and travel to find Jesus? Because they did not “believe in him”? Obviously no to that question, why would they seek out someone who is lying to them.

I ask another question … why would they not take Jesus at his word … they saw what he did with the fish and loaves. You just witnessed the only miracle mentioned in all 4 gospels, but the next day you walked away but only after Jesus tells you the way to be fed always.
 
John 6:4,11-14 - on the eve of the Passover, Jesus performs the miracle of multiplying the loaves. This was prophesied in the Old Testament (e.g., 2 Kings 4:43), and foreshadows the infinite heavenly bread which is Him.
Matt. 14:19, 15:36; Mark 6:41, 8:6; Luke 9:16 - these passages are additional accounts of the multiplication miracles. This points to the Eucharist.
The Eucharist was bread and wine, not bread and fish. And the Eucharist isn’t described as a multiplication miracle by anyone in the New Testament. In fact, it isn’t described as miracle at all. How can you say, then, “this points to the Eucharist?” Is fish part of your Eucharist?
John 6:4 - Jesus is in Capernaum on the eve of Passover, and the lambs are gathered to be slaughtered and eaten.
And yet no where are we commanded to “eat” the Lamb of God. When John’s disciples beheld the lamb of God” (1:35-37), “they followed him,” (i.e., believed in him), they didn’t eat him.
John 6:35,41,48,51 - Jesus says four times “I AM the bread from heaven.” It is He, Himself, the eternal bread from heaven. John 6:27,31,49 - there is a parallel between the manna in the desert which was physically consumed, and this “new” bread which must be consumed.
But what does it mean to “consume” the “true bread which comes down from heaven” (v. 33)? Is this a reference to the Eucharist? Or is it a reference to coming to belief in Christ? (Or both?) When we keep reading, Jesus says, “No one who comes to me will ever hunger, no one who believes in me will ever thirst.” And since there is no Eucharist in John’s gospel (there is a Last Supper, but it isn’t described as an institution of the Eucharist), it seems far safer to conclude that Jesus—the bread from heaven—wants us to believe in him, not believe in the doctrine of the real presence. The focus is on himself as “the bread which gives life to the world,” (v. 33). If we begin to shift our focus to “real presence,” then our belief becomes an exercise in convincing ourselves that a wafer and glass of wine have been miraculously transformed into Jesus (a miracle) rather than belief in Him without miracles. It’s the very error that those in Capernaum commit: “What sign will you yourself do to make us believe in you” (v. 30). They want a sign, a miracle, something like “proof.” Jesus offers no sign but Himself (v. 35).
John 6:51-52- then Jesus says that the bread He is referring to is His flesh. The Jews take Him literally and immediately question such a teaching. How can this man give us His flesh to eat? John 6:53 - 58 - Jesus does not correct their literal interpretation.
Right. We agree on this. But we draw different conclusions from this fact. Your side keeps saying that because Jesus did not correct them, they must have had it right. That’s problematic since Jesus nowhere corrects the misunderstanding of unbelievers, or at least he doesn’t often do so. (I just can’t think of any examples from John’s gospel where Jesus corrects the misunderstanding of unbelievers as if he had a moral obligation to do so.) I maintain that he didn’t correct them because they had it wrong and because it was the purpose of his preaching to separate believers from unbelievers. And I think I have many good reasons for supposing that Jesus would NOT have corrected them and that he was in fact speaking figuratively. But we can explore that later.
Instead, Jesus eliminates any metaphorical interpretations by swearing an oath and being even more literal about eating His flesh. In fact, Jesus says four times we must eat His flesh and drink His blood. Catholics thus believe that Jesus makes present His body and blood in the sacrifice of the Mass. Protestants, if they are not going to become Catholic, can only argue that Jesus was somehow speaking symbolically.
How does saying, “truly, truly” eliminate metaphorical interpretations? Jesus says, “truly, truly I am the door of the sheep” (10:7), but no one takes him to be a literal sheep gate. He is truly, truly, using a metaphor here. So the question still remains, how can we be sure that “eating flesh” and “drinking blood” are literal, rather than metaphorical? Surely not because he prefaces his comments with “truly, truly.”
 
John 6:23-53 - however, a symbolic interpretation is not plausible. Throughout these verses, the Greek text uses the word “phago” nine times. “Phago” literally means “to eat” or “physically consume.” Like the Protestants of our day, the disciples take issue with Jesus’ literal usage of “eat.” So Jesus does what?
Help me understand why “phago” has to always be taken literally, especially when Jesus himself tells us that those who come to him shall not hunger (v.35). It seems, given the context, that “eating flesh” is equivalent to “coming to” Jesus. You seem to be saying that because “phago” means “physically consume,” then we must therefore take the word literally. But why? All kinds of physical things can be used metaphorically, especially in John’s gospel: The temple, water, doors, bread, shepherds, etc., --these are all physical things. Yet they all function as metaphors for Jesus. Why can’t “eating flesh” and “drinking blood” also be metaphorical?
John 6:54, 56, 57, 58 - He uses an even more literal verb, translated as “trogo,” which means to gnaw or chew or crunch.
Yes and no. Trogo used to have the precise meaning of “chew,” but by the time of the New Testament, it had simply taken on the meaning of “to eat.” In other words, it could be used interchangeably with “phago.” So nothing about the word itself requires us to take it as “chew,” unless we have reason to believe that John was consciously evoking an older meaning of the word. There are other, more plausible explanations for the switch in terminology. Consider what he says to Peter. Do you “love” me? He uses the word agape and phileo. Many-a-sermon have been written on the distinction between these two verbs. But once again, at the time of John’s writing, it isn’t at all clear that one word had the meaning of “unconditional love” (agape) and the other “love between friends” (phileo); rather both words could carry both meanings. Another example: Jesus charges Peter to feed his sheep twice and tend his lambs. Is there a theological difference between feeding and tending? I’d say probably not. Both commands use pastoral imagery to give Peter pastoral responsibility. So why, then, does John sometimes change up his terminology? I’m going to go with stylistic variance. John is nearly poetic in his presentation of the gospel. So too, it is possible (if not likely) that there is no real distinction in meaning between phago/trogo.

But let’s suppose, for the sake of argument, that there was an intended change in meaning. Let’s suppose that by the switch from “eat” to the more graphic, “chew,” John was emphasizing something. What would that added emphasis be? Catholics argue that John is calling attention to the Eucharist. (Odd, since it became customary not to chew the wafer, but rather to let it melt in your mouth. One would think the exact opposite custom would have arisen, for those committed beforehand to the notion that “chew” = “therefore, real presence.” But I digress.) Would the switch from “eat” to “chew” require us to adopt a literal interpretation? Not at all. John/Jesus could simply be using a more graphic metaphor. Metaphors do not cease to be metaphors simply because they’re graphic. When Jesus tells the Samaritan woman at the well that he is “living water,” that’s a fairly graphic metaphor and so is the requirement to “drink” him in. But that graphicness does NOT mean we have to take Jesus literally. So too, “chewing” does not have to be taken any more literally than “dinking.”
He increases the literalness and drives his message home. Jesus will literally give us His flesh and blood to eat. The word “trogo” is only used two other times in the New Testament (in Matt. 24:38 and John 13:18) and it always means to literally gnaw or chew meat. While “phago” might also have a spiritual application, “trogo” is never used metaphorically in Greek.
This begs the question because the issue at hand is whether or not “trogo” is being used literally or metaphorically. You’ve decided ahead of time that it must be literal. But that’s precisely the question. Also, even if trogo has no prior metaphorical uses, you’re overlooking the possibility that this could be the first time. How many passages are required before we have proof? (Answer: 1).
John 6:55 - to clarify further, Jesus says “For My Flesh is food indeed, and My Blood is drink indeed.” This phrase can only be understood as being responsive to those who do not believe that Jesus’ flesh is food indeed, and His blood is drink indeed.
You’re just being dogmatic here. Consider these counter examples in John’s gospel: Jesus is the “true light” (John 1:9). If this has to be taken literally, then if put Jesus through a prism, he’d turn into a rainbow. Jesus is also the “true vine” (15:1). If taken literally, we can pick grapes off of him. Likewise, there’s no reason in principle why “true food” and “true drink” must be literal.
in Scripture where “sarx” means flesh. It is always literal.
Always? Is it literal in Matthew 16:17? “Flesh and blood” seems to be a metaphor for “human being.” The same is true of Matthew 19:5. Here the man and women who become “one flesh” seems to be metaphorical for “married.” Then Jesus says the spirit is willing, but “the flesh” is weak (Matthew 26:41). Here “flesh” stands for fallen human nature. I’m not even out of the book of Matthew and I’ve already found three NON-LITERAL uses of sarx.
 
Do you even understand what the term Paschal Lamb means?!?! You should study the Passover more, and then start reflecting on what John the Baptist meant when he called Jesus the Lamb of God. What happened to the Passover Lamb?
Here’s my reflection on what John the Baptist probably met. “Behold the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world” (1:29). John seems to be saying that Jesus “takes away the sin of the world.” Now I’m not an expert on the Passover, but I do know that Jesus will die in John’s gospel on the Passover and that he will “open not his mouth,” just like a lamb led to the slaughter. There’s no doubt the John’s crucifixion explains what it means to be the “Lamb of God.” The focus is on the lamb that “takes away sin.” There is nothing about “eating lamb” in John’s gospel. That may be what they did to the lamb afterward, but that’s not John the Evangelist, nor John the Baptist’s particular focus.

A diamond has many facets. There is nothing in principle wrong with focusing on just one of those facets. The facet in this case seems to be on the slaughter of the lamb as a sacrifice, not on the eating of the lamb.

“‘Behold the Lamb of God.’ The two disciples heard him and say this and they followed Jesus” (John 1:36-37). The focus here seems to be on “following” the lamb, not eating him.

If you want to read into that more than scripture says, go right ahead. That seems to be a longstanding Catholic custom.
 
Jesus IS correcting their thinking. That’s exactly what He is doing. But He doesn’t force anyone to believe.
Where is he correcting their misunderstanding? It wouldn’t surprise me if he had corrected some unbeliever’s misunderstanding at some point, but I just can’t think of where he did this in John. (Note–I’m not saying he did NOT do it. I’m saying I don’t know where he did it. I’m reading the Gospel now, and so far nothing stands out as an obvious, “you’ve misunderstood, let me clarify” for the sake of an unbeliever.
And just who is it that the Father wants? , 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth
. 1 Tim 2:1-4]

The referent to “all men” admits of a number of interpretations. Is Paul saying “all men” without exception, or “all men” without distinction? This is a topic in itself and would take us too far afield to discuss it here.
Anybody left out in that desire? Not that I see. Does God hold back needed graces from some people so they will fail? Not that I see.
In John’s gospel a number of people are “left out.” Jesus tells that only those whom the Father has given him, only those whom the father “draws” (literally, “drags”) to Jesus will come to Christ. God is not willing that any of those from whom he has given Jesus will be lost (see 6:39). But that doesn’t mean God has given everyone to Jesus.
If Jesus was talking figuratively, and they understood Him to be speaking figuratively, why then did they leave?
I think verse 65 answers your question perfectly: “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.” Next verse: “After this many disciples turned back and no longer walked with him.” What is the referent to “this” in “after this?” The nearest plausible antecedent is verse 65. Could it be that some of Jesus’ disciples didn’t buy into unconditional election? You seem scandalized enough by it. I wonder?
 
Miguel, to answer your last question (“So where’s the Eucharist in John? There isn’t one. And if not, then how can you be sure that’s what John 6 is talking about?”), in adition to what I stated above, keep in mind that by the time John wrote his gospel, Christians had been celebrating the Mass for decades. In each of these Masses they received the Eucharist after hearing the words of institution, “This is my Body, this is my Blood.” So when John wrote the Bread of Life discourse (“You must eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood”), what do you suppose he thought his readers would interpret this as, if not the Eucharist?
I totally agree that the celebration of the Eucharist was in full swing by the time John wrote. And it makes sense that his readers would have known that. What isn’t clear is why he leaves out the Eucharist.

Some scholars argue that John was writing a Eucharistic theology and so didn’t need to put it in. Others argue that in a Gospel begins with “The Word became flesh and dwelt among us,” that that’s all the evidence we need to know that John has the sacraments in mind.

Other scholars, however, turn that thinking on its end. John avoids being specific about sacraments in order to correct a prevailing MISUNDERSTANDING about them prevalent in his day. In other words, there may have been WAY too much focus on the sacraments themselves and a corresponding lack of focus on the person of Jesus to whom they point. Read this way, the entire gospel is a corrective to what John perceives to be a pastoral problem in his community. Let’s refocus on Jesus himself rather than the sacraments, says John. To that end, I’m going to focus on what they mean in relationship to following Jesus rather than on “real presence” and “necessity.” So one does not have read John as a denial of the real presence or the importance of baptism; rather one could read him as putting both sacraments back into proper perspective.

I would say this is what Matthew is doing with an exaggerated focus on Peter prevalent in his day. He’s putting the focus back on Jesus and demoting Peter so that we maintain a proper perspective of just who is really in charge of the Church.

I think this is what James is doing with an exaggerated misunderstanding of Paul. James isn’t contradicting justification by faith; rather he is correcting the extreme inferences some probably had drawn from Paul that therefore we could sit back and just believe without bearing fruit.

Of course this is all speculation, but I think plausible speculation. What I object to about the Catholic apologetical reading John 6 is what I perceive to be an eisegetical approach which simply takes the theology developed centuries later (i.e., transubstantiation) and reads it back into John, thereby leading us to pretty much the opposite conclusion John had in mind. What matters to John is not whether Jesus is “really” the wafer or not, but whether or not we have really come to belief in him or not.

As I see it, this is still a very relevant concern today. So many Roman Catholics go to communion seemingly because this is what they’re expected to do in order to be “good Catholics.” But of these, how many are truly walking with the Lord? How many of these, the minute their Sunday obligation is over, are described by this verse:

“After this [Sunday Mass], many of his disciples walked with him no more [until, that is, next Sunday]” (cf, John 6:66)?

Too many in my anecdotal experience.

Peace.
 
Where is he correcting their misunderstanding? It wouldn’t surprise me if he had corrected some unbeliever’s misunderstanding at some point, but I just can’t think of where he did this in John. (Note–I’m not saying he did NOT do it. I’m saying I don’t know where he did it.
They were objecting all the way through the discourse even though we see only a few of their objections. That’s why Jesus was repeating Himself and stressing Himself stronger and stronger as the discourse progressed. He’s answering their objections even while knowing who opposed His teaching. The key verse that explains this is

“there are some of you that do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the first who those were that did not believe v64]

Yet He still tried to convert them.
ms:
I’m reading the Gospel now, and so far nothing stands out as an obvious,
Eucharist is mentioned in v 23 εὐχαριστέω eucharisteō.

Ch 6 is how John ties in the feeding the 5000, and the bread of life discourse, with the explanation of the Eucharist.
ms:
The referent to “all men” admits of a number of interpretations. Is Paul saying “all men” without exception, or “all men” without distinction?
To exclude ANYONE from the possibility of being saved, is to predestine some to hell no matter what they do. IOW some people have ZERO chance to be saved. They have no chance of hope or forgiveness.

That’s considered double presedtination, thought up by Calvin.
.
ms:
In John’s gospel a number of people are “left out.” Jesus tells that only those whom the Father has given him, only those whom the father “draws” (literally, “drags”) to Jesus will come to Christ. God is not willing that any of those from whom he has given Jesus will be lost (see 6:39). But that doesn’t mean God has given everyone to Jesus.
EVERYONE has a chance at salvation. That doesn’t mean ALL will accept the terms of salvation. Jn 6 shows people who weren’t willing to accept the terms. It was a choice they made. Not because they weren’t drawn. They WERE drawn. They chased Jesus accross the lake. The day before, they were going to make Jesus their king!!! v 15] So Jesus really tried with them to convert them. You have to admit, He gave it His all. And all of them had the chance to accept. They were standing in front of the fount of ALL grace. The one who spoke in the beginning and all things were made. But they chose NOT to believe. Not by predestination, but by personal choice. Not because God didn’t give them the grace from the start. They chose not to be influenced by grace.

Grace ≠ force.
ms:
I think verse 65 answers your question perfectly: “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.” Next verse: “After this many disciples turned back and no longer walked with him.” What is the referent to “this” in “after this?” The nearest plausible antecedent is verse 65. Could it be that some of Jesus’ disciples didn’t buy into unconditional election? You seem scandalized enough by it. I wonder?
The Church teaches election and presdestination. I have no problem with either, properly defined.

I’m sensing you believe in double predestination.
 
Of course this is all speculation, but I think plausible speculation. What I object to about the Catholic apologetical reading John 6 is what I perceive to be an eisegetical approach which simply takes the theology developed centuries later (i.e., transubstantiation) and reads it back into John, thereby leading us to pretty much the opposite conclusion John had in mind. What matters to John is not whether Jesus is “really” the wafer or not, but whether or not we have really come to belief in him or not.
I think it is important to point out that the literal interpretation of John 6 by Catholics is shared by the various Orthodox Churches as well as certain Protestant denominations. We can also point to the writings of the Early Church Fathers to demonstrate that our belief is the one expressed among the early Christians. Plus, there is our belief about the magisterium having a guaranteed guidance of the Holy Spirit in terms of the correct interpretation of Scripture.

I would also like to add that transubstantiation was a philosophical term that the Church eventually approved to describe what Christians believed from the beginning. As far as the Catholic Church is concerned, the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist and Transubstantiation are Doctrines of the Faith. We believe that the origin of our doctrines is God himself. In light of this, Catholics do not believe in the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist simply because we feel John 6 should be interpreted literally. Had John never wrote his sixth chapter, we would still believe in the Real Presence.

Naturally, I don’t expect you to accept these stances, so please don’t think I’m trying to “sell it” to you, but I’m simply pointing out that Catholic belief in this matter goes beyond John 6.

Nevertheless, for the sake of an strict exegetical examination, I feel that the text of John 6 fully supports a literal interpretation. If you would like to see an extensively detailed scriptural examination of the Real Presence in the Eucharist, please visit scripturecatholic.com/the_eucharist.html

Basically in your responses in this thread you’ve been asking things like, “Well, why can’t it also mean this?” and “Why does it have to mean that?”. You are bringing up some good questions, which is just the sort of thing that forums like this are meant for (so I am not criticizing you). But is not the following question the one that really needs to be addressed: “In terms of exegesis, is a literal interpretation of John 6 academically valid?” “Valid” does not mean that there are no other possible exegetical conclusions. “Valid”, in the context of this discussion, simply means that Catholics, Orthodox and certain Protestant denominations have a scriptural basis in John 6 that reflects what we believe.

In terms of a quick “P.S.” Miguel, I appreciate how you are taking the time to respond to everyone. As we all know, such an undertaking requires a lot of time and energy, and many people have a difficult time keeping up with a daily “avalanche” of Catholic responses (and understandably so).
 
I think it is important to point out that the literal interpretation of John 6 by Catholics is shared by the various Orthodox Churches as well as certain Protestant denominations. We can also point to the writings of the Early Church Fathers to demonstrate that our belief is the one expressed among the early Christians. Plus, there is our belief about the magisterium having a guaranteed guidance of the Holy Spirit in terms of the correct interpretation of Scripture.
I get that your view has pedigree and full backing of an infallible Magisterium. That’s always a plus. My understanding, however, is that infallibility only applies to the substance of the teaching itself, not the arguments used to support it. If that’s the case, then the precise meaning of John 6:51-58 has not been defined by Rome. If that’s true, then I’m wondering if one can see that passage as metaphorical and still be Catholic. Just musing, here.
We believe that the origin of our doctrines is God himself. In light of this, Catholics do not believe in the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist simply because we feel John 6 should be interpreted literally. Had John never wrote his sixth chapter, we would still believe in the Real Presence.
I don’t think “real presence” is taught in any text of scripture, but I think you could read “this is my body” that way. It’s a possible interpretation. So I’d agree with you. Even if you were to admit that “eating flesh” and "drinking blood’ are metaphors, that doesn’t logically commit you to having to deny the real presence. You could support that belief with another text.
If you would like to see an extensively detailed scriptural examination of the Real Presence in the Eucharist, please visit scripturecatholic.com/the_eucharist.html
I’ll take a look as time permits.
“Valid” does not mean that there are no other possible exegetical conclusions. “Valid”, in the context of this discussion, simply means that Catholics, Orthodox and certain Protestant denominations have a scriptural basis in John 6 that reflects what we believe.
Agreed. Still, it’s worth discussing the merits of each “valid” exegetical option out there. No one I’ve engaged so far has persuaded me to take “eating flesh” and “drinking blood” literally, and no one has satisfactorily explained how taking it literally does not entail cannibalism. I think the Catholic view actually posits a “third way,” here that takes a middle road between “crass” literalism (i.e., cannibalism) and “symbolism.” My reading of the Catholic position is that the “eating flesh” and “drinking blood” support a “metaphysical realism,” which is what I would call a “sacramental” interpretation. This avoids the obvious problems with being overly literal, but allows for “real presence.” That–I would say–is a possible exegetical inference from the data. But it seems to be anachronistic. There’s just too much in favor of “figurative language” (John 16:25) for the Catholic view to be the most likely one (imho).
In terms of a quick “P.S.” Miguel, I appreciate how you are taking the time to respond to everyone. As we all know, such an undertaking requires a lot of time and energy, and many people have a difficult time keeping up with a daily “avalanche” of Catholic responses (and understandably so).
The benefits of having the summer off…(being a teacher). Once I go on vacation, all bets are off.

Cheers.
 
Regarding John6:25-39…

It begins in a figurative style; “I am the bread of life … He who comes to me will never be hungry…”

But it ends in literal style; “Truly, truly, if you do not eat the flesh of teh Son of Man and drink his blood, you will not have life in yourselves … My flesh is the real food …”

Do you see the change in style; Why do you suppose there is a change in style?
Charlie:

Exactly what word would you say is, or words would you say are, figurative?

🤷
 
I don’t see a “change in style” here. Both seem to be figurative language to me. Eating his flesh and drinking his blood seem to be figurative language for believing in him. No one actually takes this passage “literally,” since to literally eat flesh and drink blood would, by any definition, be cannibalism. And surely he wasn’t talking about that.

Note, I’m not saying that you can’t have a “sacramental” understanding of these words. I just don’t think you can take them “literally.”
Hi, Miguel. I used to be Evangelical myself. In fact, I’ve spent more years as an Evangelical than as a Catholic. Please tell me why you believe eating is a figure of speech for believing. Have you found that metaphor used somewhere else in the Bible, or is this just a personal opinion?

Sorry for posting so late in the discussion, but it is an important topic to me, personally. Jesus’ words in John 6 are the reason I’m seriously becoming Catholic. Your being here might be God’s way of getting my attention? Not sure. Just trying to find out.

🤷
 
Eucharist is mentioned in v 23 εὐχαριστέω eucharisteō.

Does this mean every time Jesus (or anyone in the NT) gives thanks that they’re celebrating the Lord’s Supper? I ask because εὐχαριστέω simply means “to give thanks.” As I said before, if the Eucharist is in view, why the fish? We’ve goat loaves–that’s half way there. Where’s the wine? Cana?
To exclude ANYONE from the possibility of being saved, is to predestine some to hell no matter what they do. IOW some people have ZERO chance to be saved. They have no chance of hope or forgiveness. That’s considered double presedtination, thought up by Calvin.
 
Hi, Miguel. I used to be Evangelical myself. In fact, I’ve spent more years as an Evangelical than as a Catholic. Please tell me why you believe eating is a figure of speech for believing. Have you found that metaphor used somewhere else in the Bible, or is this just a personal opinion?/QUOTE]

I’ve kind of answered this one in several recent posts, so let me nutshell it. I think “eating flesh” and “drinking blood” are metaphors, and I base that on what I find in John 6 and the rest of John’s gospel (and common sense–since Jesus is probably not advocating cannibalism/vampirism). I don’t think “eating” is always or even usually a metaphor for believing. I just think that’s what it means in John 6:51-58. I take a case-by-case approach when deciding what words mean.

Also, the real scandalous part of John 6 isn’t the eating flesh and drinking blood part. If you look at 6:66 (where some disciples fall away), everyone assumes this is because they were rejecting “real presence.” But if you look at the previous verse, there’s another plausible reason. Jesus is telling people that they can only be saved if the Father wills it (I’m paraphrasing here). Now that’s a topic that really does scandalize people, even today. It raises all kinds of objections about God’s goodness, fairness etc. But this message of God’s unconditional election is all over John 6. Over and over again we are reminded that belief in Jesus depends upon the drawing of the Father. And that word “draw” literally means “drag.” It’s a fishing term. When you “drag” a fish in a net, are you dragging it in “cooperation” with its will, or “against” it’s will? Which seems more likely given the metaphor of “dragging”?

Yet there is something in us that always wants to say that “we did it,” we “cooperated” with grace. In fact, its down right scandalous to some people to contemplate the idea that God plays favorites–that God doesn’t chose everyone. The scandal of particularity may very well be why his disciples left him (again, see John 6:65-66).

Peace
 
If Jesus was talking figuratively, and they understood Him to be speaking figuratively, why then did they leave?
John 6:65 seems to answer this question directly. The disciples who left were not among those whom the Father had given to Jesus. They left Jesus because they did not believe. I don’t think we can infer that they left because they were rejecting the real presence. When they say, “this is a hard saying, who can listen to it” (v. 60), it is precisely because they’re taking him literally that they have misunderstood. In other words, Jesus was speaking figuratively, but they were taking him literally. That’s the misunderstanding in question and it’s just like the kind of misunderstanding we find all over John’s gospel.

Take John 4 as an example. The woman at the well takes Jesus literally when he mentions the living water. She says she has nothing to draw the water with. She takes him literally, when he’s speaking figuratively. Does he correct her misunderstanding? No. He simply intensifies the metaphor changing the living water to a wellspring that wells up to eternal life. She STILL DOESN"T GET IT. She want’s the water so not to have to keep coming back to the same well. (Here we can imagine Jesus smacking his forehead and saying, Oy vey.) Instead he changes the topic to talk about her husbands (plural). Never does he clarify what he’s saying so that she’ll finally go–Oh, by living water, you actually mean belief in you–now I get it." And this doesn’t happen in John 6 either. He just keeps on piling up the metaphors, and many of his disciples don’t get it. Some forsake him. But others stay. “To whom shall we go?” asks Peter. “We’ve believed in you.”

That’s the crucial difference. Some do not believe in Jesus. When Jesus explains to them that the reason for their unbelief is because the Father has not given them to whom, they leave. (They don’t leave because they reject Jesus’ teaching about the Eucharist–that’s a very Catholic misunderstanding). Those who stay, stay because they have believed.
 
steve b, Eucharist is mentioned in v 23 εὐχαριστέω eucharisteō.

Does this mean every time Jesus (or anyone in the NT) gives thanks that they’re celebrating the Lord’s Supper?
No. That would not consider context.
ms:
I ask because εὐχαριστέω simply means “to give thanks.” As I said before, if the Eucharist is in view, why the fish? We’ve got loaves–that’s half way there. Where’s the wine? Cana?
That passage I referred to was a type.

the last supper, a passover meal, is a specific liturgy. Jesus changes the liturgy of the passover meal specifically there at the last supper, when He institutes the Eucharist. And it is His body and blood sacrificed, that we are to continie to celebrate and eat in the Eucharist.
ms:
Aquinas taught the same thing, and your church allows for this position. Aquinas taught unconditional election, but conditional reprobation.

God positively chooses those whom he will save solely on the basis of his sovereign will. That’s what Thomas and Calvin have in common.
Yes God chooses SOME specifically. But He calls EVERYONE. No one is left out from the call. Only people who refuse the call with their own free will are in trouble.

God does NOT capriciously condemn anyone. St Thomas didn’t teach double predestination. Calvin did that.
ms:
It’s also what John teaches in 1:13. Thomas taught that God unconditionally elects those whom he wills to save and passes over the rest, basing this decision to “pass over” on the basis of the reprobate’s evil deeds.
people aren’t condemned unconditionally. Their deeds condemn them.
ms:
Calvin, however, doesn’t try to justify God’s decision to to “pass over” the reprobate by blaming them. For if God had not passed over them, then they would have come to faith. So for Calvin, not choosing someone for salvation is the same as condemning them:
the problem is with having a lawyer start a religion. In reality, he couldn’t start a religion, he had no authority to do that, but thought he could, because he was full of himself. And plenty of people followed him.
ms:
You and Calvin have come to the same conclusion–that not choosing everyone is the same as condemning those not chosen.
You’re confused. You’re the Protestant not me.
ms:
But you assume that those not chosen would want to be saved. That’s not the default condition of humanity. We are rebellious by nature and resist God. So those whom God “passes over” are in fact going their own way. It’s not like they were looking for salvation only to find a cold-hearted God saying, “denied.” It’s the other way around. They deny God.
Catholics don’t believe in total depravity. That’s what Calvin believed.
ms:
God’s light shines on all. But according to John, “men preferred darkness because their deeds were evil” (3:19). That’s the default condition of fallen humanity. So there can be no injustice on God’s part for not choosing these for salvation. God is under no obligation to save anyone. That he does choose to save anyone is truly an amazing act of grace.
Only those who are stubborn and resist till the end have no hope. Not by predestination, but by their choice.
ms:
Sorry, but “chance” plays no part in salvation, but only the will of God. Again, please read John 1:13.
I picked a bad chioice of words. But I think you got my meaning.
ms:
God can do what He wants with his clay, including making vessels for honorable use and those fit for destruction. Can I get an Amen?
No. There is no Amen to that.

God takes no delight in a lost soul or losing a soul. He does everything possible to turn that soul around before death.
 
John 6:65 seems to answer this question directly. The disciples who left were not among those whom the Father had given to Jesus. They left Jesus because they did not believe. I don’t think we can infer that they left because they were rejecting the real presence. When they say, “this is a hard saying, who can listen to it” (v. 60), it is precisely because they’re taking him literally that they have misunderstood. In other words, Jesus was speaking figuratively, but they were taking him literally. That’s the misunderstanding in question and it’s just like the kind of misunderstanding we find all over John’s gospel.
They took Him literally, and they were offended and left.
ms:
Take John 4 as an example. The woman at the well takes Jesus literally when he mentions the living water. She says she has nothing to draw the water with. She takes him literally, when he’s speaking figuratively. Does he correct her misunderstanding? No. He simply intensifies the metaphor changing the living water to a wellspring that wells up to eternal life. She STILL DOESN"T GET IT. She want’s the water so not to have to keep coming back to the same well. (Here we can imagine Jesus smacking his forehead and saying, Oy vey.) Instead he changes the topic to talk about her husbands (plural). Never does he clarify what he’s saying so that she’ll finally go–Oh, by living water, you actually mean belief in you–now I get it." And this doesn’t happen in John 6 either. He just keeps on piling up the metaphors, and many of his disciples don’t get it. Some forsake him. But others stay. “To whom shall we go?” asks Peter. “We’ve believed in you.”
When Peter answered he said your words are spirit and life. IOW they cover the seen and unseen. There are no other realities…
ms:
That’s the crucial difference. Some do not believe in Jesus. When Jesus explains to them that the reason for their unbelief is because the Father has not given them to whom, they leave. (They don’t leave because they reject Jesus’ teaching about the Eucharist–that’s a very Catholic misunderstanding). Those who stay, stay because they have believed.
They couldn’t accept the Eucharist AND they couldn’t accept Jesus.
 
I’ve kind of answered this one in several recent posts, so let me nutshell it. I think “eating flesh” and “drinking blood” are metaphors, and I base that on what I find in John 6 and the rest of John’s gospel (and common sense–since Jesus is probably not advocating cannibalism/vampirism).
Yes, sorry for asking you to repeat yourself. I suppose you’re getting a taste of what it was like to be Jesus, who often repeated the same parables again, and again! I’ve been in your shoes before in forums like this. The important thing, I think is to slow down and not move to fast. Really pray for God’s wisdom and patience and think before you type. Regarding your objection, I’ve wondered that myself. In fact, the Old Testament has explicit commands to not drink blood of any kind, and of course, commands against eating human flesh. Maybe someone else can explain why eating the flesh and blood of Christ–if that is indeed what the Eucharist is–is different from cannibalism?
I don’t think “eating” is always or even usually a metaphor for believing. I just think that’s what it means in John 6:51-58. I take a case-by-case approach when deciding what words mean.
Perhaps your opinion is true, but I’d like to be sure. Wouldn’t you? I spent a good deal of time at my favorite Protestant forum discussing this with thoughtful Christians. The thing that concerned me was they all said the same: Eating must be a metaphor for believing, but they could find no example in the Bible where eating is believing. So I started doing some investigating of Jesus’ statements in John’s gospel. (It is my favorite book of the Bible, by the way, and the one I never get tired of reading.) Would you like to know what my investigation revealed?
Also, the real scandalous part of John 6 isn’t the eating flesh and drinking blood part. If you look at 6:66 (where some disciples fall away), everyone assumes this is because they were rejecting “real presence.” But if you look at the previous verse, there’s another plausible reason. Jesus is telling people that they can only be saved if the Father wills it (I’m paraphrasing here). Now that’s a topic that really does scandalize people, even today. It raises all kinds of objections about God’s goodness, fairness etc. But this message of God’s unconditional election is all over John 6. Over and over again we are reminded that belief in Jesus depends upon the drawing of the Father. And that word “draw” literally means “drag.” It’s a fishing term. When you “drag” a fish in a net, are you dragging it in “cooperation” with its will, or “against” it’s will? Which seems more likely given the metaphor of “dragging”?

Yet there is something in us that always wants to say that “we did it,” we “cooperated” with grace. In fact, its down right scandalous to some people to contemplate the idea that God plays favorites–that God doesn’t chose everyone. The scandal of particularity may very well be why his disciples left him (again, see John 6:65-66).

Peace
Yes, I agree that it is scandalous to some! I agree that Jesus says this idea will offend, but doesn’t John’s gospel show that this is not the only offensive thing Jesus said that day?

55For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. 56Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in him. 57Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me. 58This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your forefathers ate manna and died, but he who feeds on this bread will live forever." 59He said this while teaching in the synagogue in Capernaum.

60On hearing it, many of his disciples said, “This is a hard teaching. Who can accept it?”

61Aware that his disciples were grumbling about this, Jesus said to them, “Does this offend you? 62What if you see the Son of Man ascend to where he was before! 63The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you are spirit[a] and they are life. 64Yet there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him. 65He went on to say, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him.”

(John 6)

Maybe I’m missing something, but our Lord and Savior points out that they were offended (verse 61) BEFORE he even mentions the Father drawing people like you and me to Himself (verse 65). Isn’t verse 61 where He points out what is really getting people steamed? Isn’t verse 65 just an afterthought and not what originally offended them at all?

🙂
 
Regarding your objection, I’ve wondered that myself. In fact, the Old Testament has explicit commands to not drink blood of any kind, and of course, commands against eating human flesh. Maybe someone else can explain why eating the flesh and blood of Christ–if that is indeed what the Eucharist is–is different from cannibalism?
Jason Evert addresses this in an article on the Eucharist:
  1. If we took Jesus’ words literally, wouldn’t that imply cannibalism?
Cannibalism is when one individual physically eats the human flesh off of another’s body. Catholic or not, the words in John 6 do sound cannibalistic. Even a Fundamentalist would have to say that he eats the flesh of Christ and drinks his blood in a symbolic manner so as to concur with the passage. By the same allowance, Catholics eat the flesh of Christ and drink his blood in a sacramental way. Neither the Protestant nor the Catholic appears to be doing anything cannibalistic, though.
It would have been cannibalism is if a disciple two thousand years ago had tried literally to eat Jesus by sinking his teeth into his arm. Now that our Lord is in heaven with a glorified body and made present under the appearance of bread in the Eucharist, cannibalism is not possible.
catholic.com/thisrock/2001/0103sbs.asp
 
Cannibalism is when one individual physically eats the human flesh off of another’s body. Catholic or not, the words in John 6 do sound cannibalistic. Even a Fundamentalist would have to say that he eats the flesh of Christ and drinks his blood in a symbolic manner so as to concur with the passage. By the same allowance, Catholics eat the flesh of Christ and drink his blood in a sacramental way. Neither the Protestant nor the Catholic appears to be doing anything cannibalistic, though
Quite right. As I’ve said a few times now, I am a card-carrying “metaphorical cannibal.” Everyone has to be some kind of cannibal if you believe in John 6:51-58. I’m just impressed with you Catholics who claim to be “real cannibals” because you insist Jesus was speaking literally.

We all claim, in one way or another, that we “eat his flesh and drink his blood.” I take that to be John-speak for “coming to” and “believing in” Jesus. Yet so many people on this board claim, “no, we actually do that literally.” To which I respond, “really?”
 
Quite right. As I’ve said a few times now, I am a card-carrying “metaphorical cannibal.” Everyone has to be some kind of cannibal if you believe in John 6:51-58. I’m just impressed with you Catholics who claim to be “real cannibals” because you insist Jesus was speaking literally.

We all claim, in one way or another, that we “eat his flesh and drink his blood.” I take that to be John-speak for “coming to” and “believing in” Jesus. Yet so many people on this board claim, “no, we actually do that literally.” To which I respond, “really?”
I guess people can differ on what the term cannibalism entails. Is it simply the fact that human flesh and blood is placed in one’s digestive track, or does it also involve the whole sensation of chewing meat, tasting blood, etc.? Historically for Catholics, the latter is part of what the idea of cannibalism involves, an aspect that is absent in the reception of the Eucharist.

The Body and Blood of Christ provided in the Eucharist is his Glorified body (which, among other things, means his body is beyond human limitations and not subject to death) available in a sacramental way. Likewise, through Communion, we consume and are joined to Jesus in a sacramental way. A Protestant at a Communion service in his own church may claim that he is receiving Jesus in a symbolic way, but the actual sensation is the same for Catholics receiving Jesus in a sacramental way. In other words, we are both tasting bread and wine (or grape juice as the case may be) but spiritually we both believe that there is something greater at work. For Catholics, that “something” is a reception of the actual Glorified Christ and all that he is.

Because the Eucharist is Christ, it is the greatest gift of love imaginable (after all, Christ is Love Itself). A true gift of love does not hold something back, but is given in totality. When we say that the Eucharist is the Body, Blood, Soul & Divinity of Christ, that is another way of saying that Jesus is holding nothing back. He gave us all he had on the cross, and likewise gives us all that he has in the Eucharist. He even equated the two at the Last Supper. To those who say that the Eucharist is “just a symbol” of Jesus, I respond, “He loves us more than to give us just a symbol. He gives us his all.”

In light of all this, there is great beauty in the idea of consuming Christ in the Eucharist. All that we are is united with all that Christ is, on a physical, metabolical and spiritual level. With this in mind, Fr. Angelus Shaughnessy once stated that when we receive Jesus in the Eucharist, we are as close to him as he was to Mary when she bore him in her womb.
 
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