John 6:37-39

[Imputationalist]

I’m freshly registered, so I am including some introductory remarks. I hope that’s ok…

After I realized that I wanted to marry the woman who is now my wife and that the Roman Catholic Church (RCC) was the one true church that Jesus established and had to be the one I was a part of, I was invited to attend RCIA classes by my mother in law (who also ended up being my sponsor). Disappointingly enough, though, the answers that were given by the ones leading the group were not stellar, and I was pretty sure that I wanted to become an apologist for the faith that I was to be initiated into on the coming Easter Sunday. I believed that I had more legitimate and convincing arguments, and I was quite disappointed that those who were supposed to be preparing new converts had such a low level of knowledge to impart. So my sponsor and I transferred to a more advanced class.

Unfortunately for those heading up that class, I had confessed to my dad (a Baptist pastor) that I would be leaving the faith of my youth, and he had directed me to the first 4 chapters of Romans for contemplation before my initiation. This proved to be the next turning point in my faith journey because I realized that the argument that Paul was putting forth in those 4 chapters not only contradicted my understanding of Roman Catholic teaching at that time, but it still does. And that is why I am here. Those RCIA leaders didn’t have answers for my objections then, and I still have the desire to offer my objections out of curiosity over what you all have to say to them.

Obviously, I no longer see the RCC as the church established by Christ.

Many arguments ensued between myself, my mother in law, and (most frequently) my wife. In the course of the arguments I heard one particular objection that continues to perplex me. The objection is that once Jesus saves someone they can’t possibly be secure, for sure, forever. The scoffing usually is directed against the cliche popularly known as “Once Saved, Always Saved.” And though I’m not overly fond of that saying, I’d like to defend it (and explain it) by asking a question of something that Jesus said that keeps me from doubting the truth of it. I pray that in the course of discussing this the participants will read carefully and think before responding in order that it will be a useful and fruitful discussion.

The words I’m referring to come from John 6:37-39, and they read:

All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day.
(John 6:37-39 ESV)

First of all, Jesus points out the fact that every person who comes to Him (believes in Him, according to the wider context) has been given to Him by the Father. This seems to indicate that coming to Jesus is a gift given to certain people, and I won’t go into any more depth on that point in order to not get sidetracked. I would be glad to discuss that in more depth elsewhere, but the point I’m sticking to in this particular thread will be focused on those who have actually come to Jesus and whether they can be lost/leave Him/be “unsaved” once they do.

Moving forward from Jesus’ identification of the objects of the Father’s giving, we see that these are those whom Jesus will never “cast out.” Seeing that God is One, and the Father gives some to the Son; we would expect that the Son will not only accept those given to Him, but He will not abandon them or evict them once they have been given into His care. And if Jesus is in fact God (and He most certainly is), then He can by no means fail in any task He intends to accomplish. So if all of those given to the Son by the Father will come to Him, and He says that He will never cast them out; then there couldn’t possibly be anything that could persuade Him to abandon His promise.

Next, Jesus points out that He has come down from heaven to do the Father’s will. I don’t think I need to belabor the point, but I will say that I don’t think that the eternal, sovereign, all powerful God-man could possibly be thwarted in His endeavor to accomplish what He has been given to do. I would assume that no one would disagree with this, but we will see, I suppose.

Finally, Jesus specifies the task He was given by the Father, and this is the weightiest part of this section, I think. He says that His responsibility is to ensure that of all of the ones given to Him by the Father not a single one should be lost. As we should all be in agreement about, Jesus Christ, the eternal God in human flesh, is in no way capable of NOT accomplishing what He has been given to do. In fact, part of His purpose for coming was to fully accomplish the complete obedience of the law which every single individual who had ever lived (and ever has lived or ever will live) had not been able to do. If He hadn’t accomplished this, He wouldn’t have raised from the dead, and the sacrifice made on the cross would have been in vain. So yes, He will definitely be able to preserve those given to Him by the Father. And in case there is any question as to what He is preserving these ones for, He clarifies by saying that He is going to raise them up at the last day.

This is why I can’t take anyone seriously when they say that a person can truly become a Christian and then be separated from Christ and damned to hell for all eternity. This just can’t happen. And this is a foundational truth about the Gospel that will help us understand other texts in the Bible that seem to indicate that a person can be a believer and then be cast away. And if these words of Jesus are true, this should greatly affect the RC understanding of the power and lasting effects of the Gospel/salvation/conversion.

Thoughts? Alternate explanations of this passage?

 

[JM3]

Romans 11:22

 

[Juliannarose]

He won’t leave us, but he WILL let us leave Him. If you do something, anything, you believe to be wrong, even IF it is not officially a “mortal” sin according to the Church, you are turning against Him. Not Everyone who says to Him “Lord, Lord” will enter the kingdom.

 

[hockeyfan]

[BIBLEDRB]Hebrews 6:1-20[/BIBLEDRB]

[BIBLEDRB]Romans 11:16-27[/BIBLEDRB]

 

[po18guy]

First of all, welcome! It is very good that you have come here. You are seeking the truth, and nothing better can be said of you. For your consideration:

As JM3 wisely offered: Romans 11:22. Paul was addressing baptized (“saved”) Christians in Rome. How can they be “cut off” if they were “saved”?

John 15. We must remain in Him, else we will be cut off and wither and be thrown into the fire. Jesus was speaking to “saved”, baptized believers. That is not OSAS.

1 Corinthians 9:24 OSAS makes a mockery of Saint Paul. It begins on the finish line - there is no race to run.

1 John 5:16-17
He that knoweth his brother to sin a sin which is not to death, let him ask, and life shall be given to him, who sinneth not to death. There is a sin unto death: for that I say not that any man ask. All iniquity is sin. And there is a sin unto death.

OSAS contradicts this. John was speaking of baptized Christians - not the unsaved!

Do not allow the private interpretation (2 Peter 1:20) of a tiny bit of scripture to keep you away from the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of our Lord Jesus Christ. Examine the reasoning in this thread from a fellow (former) Baptist.

Do you have a copy of Catholicism for Dummies? Every RCIA program should have it.

 

[Trebor135]

We have to be cautious when interpreting Scripture on this issue. Some passages seem to suggest that salvation cannot be lost, while others appear to indicate that it can. The question arises: by which paradigm are we going to consider the relevant biblical data?

In the parable recorded in Mark chapter four, Jesus mentions four categories of people, differentiated by their response to the Gospel. How would you understand this parable in relation to the question of whether salvation can be lost or not?

[1] Again he began to teach beside the sea. And a very large crowd gathered about him, so that he got into a boat and sat in it on the sea; and the whole crowd was beside the sea on the land.
[2] And he taught them many things in parables, and in his teaching he said to them:
[3] “Listen! A sower went out to sow.
[4] And as he sowed, some seed fell along the path, and the birds came and devoured it.
[5] Other seed fell on rocky ground, where it had not much soil, and immediately it sprang up, since it had no depth of soil;
[6] and when the sun rose it was scorched, and since it had no root it withered away.
[7] Other seed fell among thorns and the thorns grew up and choked it, and it yielded no grain.
[8] And other seeds fell into good soil and brought forth grain, growing up and increasing and yielding thirtyfold and sixtyfold and a hundredfold.”
[9] And he said, “He who has ears to hear, let him hear.”
[10]
And when he was alone, those who were about him with the twelve asked him concerning the parables.
[11] And he said to them, “To you has been given the secret of the kingdom of God, but for those outside everything is in parables;
[12] so that they may indeed see but not perceive, and may indeed hear but not understand; lest they should turn again, and be forgiven.”
[13] And he said to them, “Do you not understand this parable? How then will you understand all the parables?
[14] The sower sows the word.
[15] And these are the ones along the path, where the word is sown; when they hear, Satan immediately comes and takes away the word which is sown in them.
[16] And these in like manner are the ones sown upon rocky ground, who, when they hear the word, immediately receive it with joy;
[17] and they have no root in themselves, but endure for a while; then, when tribulation or persecution arises on account of the word, immediately they fall away.
[18] And others are the ones sown among thorns; they are those who hear the word,
[19] but the cares of the world, and the delight in riches, and the desire for other things, enter in and choke the word, and it proves unfruitful.
[20] But those that were sown upon the good soil are the ones who hear the word and accept it and bear fruit, thirtyfold and sixtyfold and a hundredfold.”

 

[JRKH]

First - Welcome…

Second, I think that the problem with the idea of OSAS or “assurance of salvation” or however one wishes to title it, is that it can largely be a matter of perspective.
I fully agree that those God has given, those called etc…God will complete the work He has started and so forth…These things speak more to what God knows - it looks at it from his perspective…But what can We know with absolute surety???
Can we “Know” beyond a shadow of a doubt that our faith is a saving faith? That we will not reject the faith next year, next month, even the next day??
To me this is where the disconnect comes in.

Trebor provides above what I think is just about the best passage for the refutation of the OSAS position. At least two of the described soils which receive the seed accept it but then fail to produce fruit.
To this one I would add the passage in Mt 7:21-29 where Jesus explains that not all who cry “Lord Lord” will enter the kingdom… and also the passage in James 2 where he is talking about those who claim faith but have no “works”…
Those crying "Lord Lord are actually surprised to find that Jesus does not know them…They even performed “mighty deeds” in His name and yet were lost…They were sure that they were saved and yet…they were not.
In the James 2 14-18 passage, we are told that one can hold a type of “faith” that will not save…
Consider the audience that James must have been addressing here that he would write thus. What sort of “faith” and action must these people have been displaying for him to use such strong language as “So faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead.”
Is it not likely that he is speaking to people who firmly believe and have faith that they themselves are saved?? Yet James admonishes them that theirs is not a proper and saving faith…

In summary - from God’s perspective, from what God Knows, OSAS makes sense. But from our limited human perspective, it falls far short. God knows, but we don’t…
As an academic exercise, a discussion topic, it’s fine, but it has no benefit or useful application in our daily walk.

I would also suggest that there is a fine line between being humbly and gratefully confident in our salvation and claiming a surety (guarantee).

I apologize if the above is a bit disorganized…I sometimes get to thinking faster than I am able to type…

Peace
James

 

[JRKH]

If I may offer one more thought on this matter -

In talking with your wife and MIL, consider that the “uncertainty” expressed in the Catholic understanding stems not from a lack of faith or trust in God, but rather from a lack of faith and trust in ourselves.
We know what God will do tomorrow - God will continue to Love us. What we don’t know is what we will do…believe…accept…reject…
We are cast about and even from one moment to the next we cannot be sure we won’t deny Christ. Look at Peter - At supper he declared his willingness to follow Jesus anywhere, and just a few short hours later he denied even knowing Jesus.

So the lack of certainty stems from not trusting ourselves…and our “fickle” hearts and restless minds and our weak wills.

Just a thought.

Peace
James

 

[Cachonga]

Imputationalist, let me begin with a little background info of my own. I was born and raised Roman Catholic. I had received 6 of the 7 sacraments by the time I was 30 (never got around to holy orders). By the time I was 34, God brought me out of the Catholic Church. I have a brother who is trying to bring me back in, and I honestly want to know the truth. He loaned me a teaching series on Mary made by Tim Staples (should be a familiar name around here). It’s because of him that I found the web site of James White, a Reformed Baptist apologist (I’ll be more than happy to give you more info in a PM if you want it).

I absolutely disagree with “once saved, always saved” as I have seen it practiced. I had a roommate in college that was baptized into the Baptist church when he was about 11, and believed he was saved. He didn’t drink or smoke, and rarely cussed, but he was a womanizer. I do, however, believe in the eternal security of the believer, as described in John 6:37-39 (other places as well). I would be happy to share with you what I have learned in my walk with the Lord on this particular subject.

First, I would point you to the parable of the soils (see Matt 13, Mark 4 and Luke 8). Notice that the soil never changed. Eternal security is for the elect, not for everyone who says “I believe” (the Greek uses a tense that indicates an ongoing action, that is, you continually call on the name of the Lord - it’s not a one time call, get your ticket punched, then do what you want until Jesus calls you to Heaven).

Next, I would point you to examples of the different soils as found in Scripture. The hypocrites are certainly examples of hard ground. They heard the Word like everyone else, but they were looking to trap Jesus in His words (definitely hard hearted people). Judas is an example of rocky soil. He was a Disciple (and a thief, which would indicate to me that he wasn’t really of the elect). Things were fine with him until Jesus said he was going to Jerusalem to be crucified. Judas felt the “heat” of persecution, as it were, and ended up betraying Jesus for 30 pieces of silver, then killing himself. Next, we turn to Acts (5) and Ananias and Sapphira. Notice, they were considered to be believers. They had heard the message, were undoubtedly baptized, and were members in good standing with the Church. Unfortunately, the weeds choked their belief, and they were deceived by riches and the things of this world (including the praise of men, which is what they wanted by claimig to have given all the money to the Church). God, through Peter, showed them they were attempting to lie to the Holy Spirit, and they died.

The verses that are being used to show that we can leave God are actually warnings to those who call themselves believers, not that true believers can “leave” God, but that all who call themselves believers can examine themselves to be sure they are continuing in the faith. I invite you to PM me about more info (I would be happy to give it here, but I’ve done that before and don’t think there would be a lot to gain by trying to defend myself from what I know will be coming).

 

[Trebor135]

First, I would point you to the parable of the soils (see Matt 13, Mark 4 and Luke 8). Notice that the soil never changed. Eternal security is for the elect, not for everyone who says “I believe” (the Greek uses a tense that indicates an ongoing action, that is, you continually call on the name of the Lord - it’s not a one time call, get your ticket punched, then do what you want until Jesus calls you to Heaven).

Next, I would point you to examples of the different soils as found in Scripture. The hypocrites are certainly examples of hard ground. They heard the Word like everyone else, but they were looking to trap Jesus in His words (definitely hard hearted people). Judas is an example of rocky soil. He was a Disciple (and a thief, which would indicate to me that he wasn’t really of the elect). Things were fine with him until Jesus said he was going to Jerusalem to be crucified. Judas felt the “heat” of persecution, as it were, and ended up betraying Jesus for 30 pieces of silver, then killing himself. Next, we turn to Acts (5) and Ananias and Sapphira. Notice, they were considered to be believers. They had heard the message, were undoubtedly baptized, and were members in good standing with the Church. Unfortunately, the weeds choked their belief, and they were deceived by riches and the things of this world (including the praise of men, which is what they wanted by claimig to have given all the money to the Church). God, through Peter, showed them they were attempting to lie to the Holy Spirit, and they died.

The verses that are being used to show that we can leave God are actually warnings to those who call themselves believers, not that true believers can “leave” God, but that all who call themselves believers can examine themselves to be sure they are continuing in the faith.

This is pure sophistry.

To take one example, from Mark chapter four:

[16] And these in like manner are the ones sown upon rocky ground, who, when they hear the word, immediately receive it with joy;
[17] and they have no root in themselves, but endure for a while; then, when tribulation or persecution arises on account of the word, immediately they fall away.

Is Jesus really saying those in the category described here were never “true believers” to begin with (your question-begging words)? How can anyone “receive [the word] with joy” (v. 16) who hasn’t undergone a genuine conversion? And how can they then “fall away” (v. 17) if they were never a follower of Christ in the first place?

 

[po18guy]

By the time I was 34, God brought me out of the Catholic Church.

I would not assume that this was God. But, since you seek the truth, there is no higher compliment, and God is definitely with you on your continuing search.

Catholics have eternal security IF. Scripture is replete with what those IFs are.

 

[Credo_ergo_sum]

This is pure sophistry.

To take one example, from Mark chapter four:

[16] And these in like manner are the ones sown upon rocky ground, who, when they hear the word, immediately receive it with joy;
[17] and they have no root in themselves, but endure for a while; then, when tribulation or persecution arises on account of the word, immediately they fall away.

Is Jesus really saying those in the category described here were never “true believers” to begin with (your question-begging words)? How can anyone “receive [the word] with joy” (v. 16) who hasn’t undergone a genuine conversion? And how can they then “fall away” (v. 17) if they were never a follower of Christ in the first place?

Did I ever tell you how awesome you are?

 

[Trebor135]

Did I ever tell you how awesome you are?

Hahaha–no, but thank you.

I must also commend you for the diligence with which you’re studying Early Church history.

And that brings up an important point. James White and other Baptists aren’t worth listening to on the question of whether salvation can be lost because eternal security and once saved always saved don’t reflect the beliefs of the Christians persecuted and martyred by the pagan Roman Empire. If either of those doctrines were a part of the apostolic faith, the Oriental Orthodox, the Eastern Orthodox, or both would definitely believe in one or the other.

 

[JRKH]

This is pure sophistry.

To take one example, from Mark chapter four:

[16] And these in like manner are the ones sown upon rocky ground, who, when they hear the word, immediately receive it with joy;
[17] and they have no root in themselves, but endure for a while; then, when tribulation or persecution arises on account of the word, immediately they fall away.

Is Jesus really saying those in the category described here were never “true believers” to begin with (your question-begging words)? How can anyone “receive [the word] with joy” (v. 16) who hasn’t undergone a genuine conversion? And how can they then “fall away” (v. 17) if they were never a follower of Christ in the first place?

Excellent post…

I’ve seen this “trail” before … Let’s see if it follows it’s normal course…:compcoff:

 

[po18guy]

From this debate, we can see that Catholics and Orthodox have the great grace of an authoritative Church to lead, guide and protect the truth. All others - all of them - must pick and choose and stumble along their way, never knowing if they have arrived at the fulness of truth. They hop from denomination to non-denomination, blown about by the winds of changing doctrine. Some, rather clearly, do not even seek the whole truth, apparently fearing it. Spiritual orphans they are, but Jesus did not leave us orphans.

As to all of the self-appointed teachers, no matter their name, are they malignant, or just ‘plain ignant’?

 

[pablope]

I’m freshly registered, so I am including some introductory remarks. I hope that’s ok…

The words I’m referring to come from John 6:37-39, and they read:

Thoughts? Alternate explanations of this passage?

Try this thread on the same subject: forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=658668&highlight=assurance+of+salvation

2nd…we do not just use one part of Scripture…there are other passages that say other things.

This one, for example…Matt 7:21…21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

This explains Romans view:scripturecatholic.com/justification.html#justification-II

II. Works of Law versus Good Works
Rom. 3:20,28; Gal. 2:16,21; 3:2,5,10; Eph. 2:8-9 - many Protestants err in their understanding of what Paul means by "works of the law” in his teaching on justification. Paul’s teaching that we are not justified by “works of the law” refer to the law of Moses or to any legal system that makes God our debtor. They do not refer to good works done in grace with faith in Christ. This makes sense when we remember that Paul’s mission was to teach that salvation was also for the Gentiles who were not subject to the “works of the law.” Here is the proof:

James 2:24 – compare the verse “a man is justified by works and not by faith alone” to Gal. 2:16 – “a man is not justified by works of the law,” and Rom. 3:20,28 – “no human being will be justified in His sight by works of the law.” James 2:24 appears to be inconsistent with Gal. 2:16 and Rom. 3:20,28 until one realizes that the Word of God cannot contradict itself. This means that the “works” in James 2:24 are different from the “works of the law in Gal. 2:16 and Rom. 3:20,28. James is referring to “good works” (e.g.,clothing the naked; giving food to the poor) and Paul is referring to the “Mosaic law” (which included both the legal, moral and ceremonial law) or any works which oblige God to give us payment. Here is more proof:

Rom. 3:20,28; Gal. 2:16 - Paul’s phrase for “works of the law” in the Greek is “ergon nomou” which means the Mosaic law or Torah and refers to the teachings (legal, moral) and works (ceremonial) that gave the Jews the knowledge of sin, but not an escape from sin. We have further proof of this from the Dead Sea Scrolls which provide the Hebrew equivalent (“hrvt ysm”) meaning “deeds of the law,” or Mosaic law. James in James 2 does not use “ergon nomou.” He uses “ergois agathois.” Therefore, Paul’s “works of the law” and James’ “works” are entirely different types of works. Again, they could never contradict each other because the Scriptures are the inspired word of God.

Losing Salvation: scripturecatholic.com/salvation.html#salvation-IV

Excerpts:

II. We are not Guaranteed Salvation; We Hope For Salvation
Heb. 7:27, 9:12,26;10:10; 1 Pet 3:18 - Jesus died once and redeemed us all, but we participate in the application of His redemption by the way in which we live.

Heb. 9:12 - Christ’s sacrifice secured our redemption, but redemption is not the same thing as salvation. We participate in and hope for salvation. Our hope in salvation is a guarantee if we are faithful to Christ to the end. But if we lose hope and fail to persevere, we can lose our salvation. Thus, by our own choosing (not by God’s doing), salvation is not a certainty. While many Protestant churches believe in the theology of “once saved, always saved,” such a novel theory is not found in Scripture and has never been taught by the Church.

Rom. 5:2 - we rejoice in the “hope” (not the presumptuous certainty) of sharing the glory of God. If salvation is absolutely assured after accepting Jesus as Savior, why would Paul hope?

Rom. 5:5 - this “hope” does not disappoint us, because God’s love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit. Our hope is assured if we persevere to the end.

Rom. 8:24 - this “hope” of salvation that Paul writes about is unnecessary if salvation is guaranteed. If salvation is assured, then why hope?

Rom. 10:1 - Paul prays that the Jews “may be saved.” Why pray if it’s guaranteed? Further, why pray unless you can mediate?

IV. Jesus’ Teaching on Losing Salvation
Matt. 7:18 - Jesus says that sound trees bear good fruit. But there is no guarantee that a sound tree will stay sound. It could go rotten.

Matt. 7:21 - all those who say “Lord, Lord” on the last day will not be saved. They are judged by their evil deeds.

Matt. 12:30-32 - Jesus says that he who is not with Him is against Him, therefore (the Greek for “therefore” is “dia toutos” which means “through this”) blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. This means that failing to persevere in Jesus’ grace to the end is the unforgivable sin against the Spirit. We must persevere in faith to the end of our lives.

Matt. 22:14 - Jesus says many are called but few are chosen. This man, who was destined to grace, was at God’s banquet, but was cast out.

Luke 8:13 - Jesus teaches that some people receive the word with joy, but they have no root, believe for a while, and then fall away in temptation. They had the faith but they lost it.

Luke 12:42-46 - we can start out as a faithful and wise steward, then fall away and be assigned to a place with the unfaithful.

Luke 15:11-32 – in the parable of the prodigal son, we learn that we can be genuine sons of the Father, then leave home and die, then return and be described as “alive again.”

John 6:70-71 - Jesus chose or elected twelve, yet one of them, Judas, fell. Not all those predestined to grace persevere to the end.

John 15:1-10 - we can be in Jesus (a branch on the vine), and then if we don’t bear fruit, are cut off, wither up and die. Paul makes this absolutely clear in Rom. 11:20-23.

John 17:12 - we can be given to Jesus by the Father (predestined to grace) and yet not stay with Jesus, like Judas.

 

[Cachonga]

Trebor135:

This is pure sophistry.

Wow! First time I’ve ever been accused of that. I think you’re going to need better evidence than you’re putting forth to prove the charge.

To take one example, from Mark chapter four:

[16] And these in like manner are the ones sown upon rocky ground, who, when they hear the word, immediately receive it with joy;
[17] and they have no root in themselves, but endure for a while; then, when tribulation or persecution arises on account of the word, immediately they fall away.

Is Jesus really saying those in the category described here were never “true believers” to begin with (your question-begging words)? How can anyone “receive [the word] with joy” (v. 16) who hasn’t undergone a genuine conversion? And how can they then “fall away” (v. 17) if they were never a follower of Christ in the first place?

How is it that 5,000 men (plus women and children) received the loaves and fishes with joy, yet turned away when Jesus explained that He was the true bread? Consider another parable – Matthew 13:24-30. Here we see that good seed was sown, but an enemy came by night and sowed bad seed. Notice that at no point does a wheat plant become a tare, nor a tare become wheat. God choose His elect people, but He does show mercy and goodness on all people (we all enjoy some basic pleasures in life – sunshine, food, walks on the beach, sunsets, etc…). Keep in mind what Matthew said in Chapter 8, verse 44 (“You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies.” NASB). Seems to indicate to me that you’re either in Adam or in Christ. Furthermore, people make “alter calls” for various reasons (emotion, guilty conscience, conviction by the preacher, or maybe a real drawing by God of the Holy Spirit).

Finally, consider 1 John 2:19 (“They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, so that it would be shown that they all are not of us.” NASB). Again, in light of other things that have been mentioned, it seems clear to me that none of the elect (the “true believers”) will ever leave, but that the non-elect may very well do just that (it’s always easier to separate the wheat from the chaff during times of persecution). When there is little or no persecution, false teachers abound (they were trying to creep in while the Apostles were still alive!), and we get a lot churches that make people feel comfortable in their sin instead of exposing it and calling people to repentance and holiness.

Of course, I take the Reformed view, believing that God choose His elect people from before creation, that He calls them in their time, gives them saving faith and opens their mind and heart to receive Him. Only the Elect will go to Heaven. The non-elect will face God’s wrath for their own sins and receive the just punishment for them (this is not double-predestination, though I’m sure that will be brought up). I strongly recommend reading all of John 6.

 

[Cachonga]

po18guy:

I would not assume that this was God. But, since you seek the truth, there is no higher compliment, and God is definitely with you on your continuing search.

I believe I have plenty of evidence to support the claim, but that’s not the topic of this thread, so I’ll just leave it at that.

Catholics have eternal security IF. Scripture is replete with what those IFs are.

Again, I believe I have plenty of evidence to believe this could apply to my walk with the Lord. I do examine the verses that talk about falling away to examine myself and see if I’m heading in the wrong direction. I admit, my walk hasn’t been perfect, but I can honestly say I’ve had more spiritual growth in the last 4 years as a Reformed Baptist than I had in nearly 34 years as a Roman Catholic (and I was very active, even getting up early and going to church every morning (except Saturday - even God took a day off!), rain or shine, teaching CCD, etc…), and even more than 17 years as a non-denominational, evangelical protestant (where I also became an Associate Pastor and Youth Leader).

 

[po18guy]

I believe I have plenty of evidence to support the claim, but that’s not the topic of this thread, so I’ll just leave it at that.

Ha! No return fire allowed, huh? Something to ponder: God allowed you to leave, but did not cause it. It’s all part of your lifetime journey.

Again, I believe I have plenty of evidence to believe this could apply to my walk with the Lord. I do examine the verses that talk about falling away to examine myself and see if I’m heading in the wrong direction. I admit, my walk hasn’t been perfect, but I can honestly say I’ve had more spiritual growth in the last 4 years as a Reformed Baptist than I had in nearly 34 years as a Roman Catholic (and I was very active, even getting up early and going to church every morning (except Saturday - even God took a day off!), rain or shine, teaching CCD, etc…), and even more than 17 years as a non-denominational, evangelical protestant (where I also became an Associate Pastor and Youth Leader).

Actually, your path is distinctly similar to those who either revert or convert. You may not see it at this point, though.

 

[Trebor135]

Wow! First time I’ve ever been accused of that.

That’s certainly a good thing.

I think you’re going to need better evidence than you’re putting forth to prove the charge.

I beg to differ.

How is it that 5,000 men (plus women and children) received the loaves and fishes with joy, yet turned away when Jesus explained that He was the true bread?

For any number of reasons–shock, disgust, horror, lack of faith.

That crowd is, however, not necessarily analogous to the Christians who have fallen away (I’m sure we all know one or more first- or second-hand).

Consider another parable – Matthew 13:24-30. Here we see that good seed was sown, but an enemy came by night and sowed bad seed. Notice that at no point does a wheat plant become a tare, nor a tare become wheat. God choose His elect people, but He does show mercy and goodness on all people (we all enjoy some basic pleasures in life – sunshine, food, walks on the beach, sunsets, etc…). Keep in mind what Matthew said in Chapter 8, verse 44 (“You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies.” NASB). Seems to indicate to me that you’re either in Adam or in Christ. Furthermore, people make “alter calls” for various reasons (emotion, guilty conscience, conviction by the preacher, or maybe a real drawing by God of the Holy Spirit).

This binary, wheat or tare, in-Adam or in-Christ dichotomy, however, is expanded into a four-way distinction by Christ in the parable of the sower and the seeds. You failed to answer the questions I posed regarding Mark 4:16-17.

Finally, consider 1 John 2:19 (“They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, so that it would be shown that they all are not of us.” NASB).

I acknowledge that there must be professing Christians who seem to commit apostasy in a manner visible to the rest of the world but who were never really disciples of Jesus in the first place. How do you fit this passage from Hebrews chapter six into your theological paradigm though?

[4] For it is impossible to restore again to repentance those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit,
[5] and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come,
[6] if they then commit apostasy, since they crucify the Son of God on their own account and hold him up to contempt.

Again, in light of other things that have been mentioned, it seems clear to me that none of the elect (the “true believers”) will ever leave, but that the non-elect may very well do just that (it’s always easier to separate the wheat from the chaff during times of persecution).

We still have to grapple with the parable in Mark chapter four and the passage from Hebrews chapter six.

When there is little or no persecution, false teachers abound (they were trying to creep in while the Apostles were still alive!),

Like Calvin?

and we get a lot churches that make people feel comfortable in their sin instead of exposing it and calling people to repentance and holiness.

That’s definitely a problem no matter what theological camp one is a member of.

Of course, I take the Reformed view, believing that God choose His elect people from before creation, that He calls them in their time, gives them saving faith and opens their mind and heart to receive Him. Only the Elect will go to Heaven. The non-elect will face God’s wrath for their own sins and receive the just punishment for them (this is not double-predestination, though I’m sure that will be brought up).

With the right qualifications, I can agree with your view.

I strongly recommend reading all of John 6.

Sure.