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Wannano
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I am interested in knowing what others interpret these verses to mean…
John 6 : 62 & 63 What does this mean?
Hopefully this explanation helps answer your question Wannano.I am interested in knowing what others interpret these verses to mean…
Verse 62.) Yes, yes, what if you realized that this is God saying this to you, would you believe me then?I am interested in knowing what others interpret these verses to mean…
In other words, it’s not as if we have Jesus using a metaphor, and the crowd naively assuming that He means it to be literal. It’s something nearer the opposite: we have the crowd initially assuming Jesus is speaking metaphorically, and Jesus going out of His way to make sure that they don’t think that. And after the crowd protests, “how can this Man give us His flesh to eat?” Jesus answers (Jn. 6:53-58), by explaining six different times that He means this literally in the span of six verses:
And to top all of this off, this discourse occurs at Passover time (John 6:4), one year prior to the Institution of the Eucharist at the Last Supper (Mt. 26:20-29).
- “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the Flesh of the Son of Man and drink His Blood, you have no life in yourselves.” (Jn. 6:53)
“He who eats My Flesh and drinks My Blood has eternal life, and I will raise Him up on the last day.” (Jn. 6:54)
“For My Flesh is True Food, and My Blood is True Drink.” (Jn. 6:55)
“He who eats My Flesh and drinks My Blood abides in Me, and I in Him.” (Jn. 6:56)
“As the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, so he who eats Me, he also will live because of Me.” (Jn. 6:57)
“This is the Bread which came down out of Heaven; not as the fathers and died; he who eats this Bread will live forever.” (Jn. 6:58).*
What is it, then, that He adds? It is the Spirit that quickens; the flesh profits nothing. Let us say to Him (for He permits us, not contradicting Him, but desiring to know), O Lord, good Master, in what way does the flesh profit nothing, while You have said, Except a man eat my flesh, and drink my blood, he shall not have life in him? Or does life profit nothing? And why are we what we are, but that we may have eternal life, which Thou dost promise by Your flesh? Then what means the flesh profits nothing? It profits nothing, but only in the manner in which they understood it. They indeed understood the flesh, just as when cut to pieces in a carcass, or sold in the shambles; not as when it is quickened by the Spirit.
Wherefore it is said that the flesh profits nothing, in the same manner as it is said that knowledge puffs up. Then, ought we at once to hate knowledge? Far from it! And what means Knowledge puffs up? Knowledge alone, without charity. Therefore he added, but charity edifies. [1 Corinthians 8:1] Therefore add to knowledge charity, and knowledge will be profitable, not by itself, but through charity. So also here, the flesh profits nothing, only when alone. Let the Spirit be added to the flesh, as charity is added to knowledge, and it profits very much. For if the flesh profited nothing, the Word would not be made flesh to dwell among us. If through the flesh Christ has greatly profited us, does the flesh profit nothing? But it is by the flesh that the Spirit has done somewhat for our salvation. Flesh was a vessel; consider what it held, not what it was. The apostles were sent forth; did their flesh profit us nothing? If the apostles’ flesh profited us, could it be that the Lord’s flesh should have profited us nothing? For how should the sound of the Word come to us except by the voice of the flesh? Whence should writing come to us? All these are operations of the flesh, but only when the spirit moves it, as if it were its organ. Therefore it is the Spirit that quickens; the flesh profits nothing, as they understood the flesh, but not so do I give my flesh to be eaten.*
How could Jesus be clarifying for the grumblers something He had not mentioned to them, i.e. His death, His resurrection, and second coming?Might some who believe in a symbolic presence but not a physical one, interpret the verses to mean that Jesus was clarifying to the grumblers that he was speaking figuratively about eating his flesh and drinking his blood and instead to believe in his death for our sins, in his resurrection and 2nd coming, and in the meantime he would be with us in spirit? Of course some still grumbled and walked away. But maybe because they were still thinking Jesus was speaking literally?
You have given insight into what the Jews meant and understood when they referred to “the flesh.” Earlier in John 6 Jesus explains He is the Bread of Life which comes down from heaven and in verse 47 explains that anyone who BELIEVES ON him has everlasting life. Is there a difference in believing in Him and believing on Him? Verse 48 he states boldly that he is that bread of life. Verse 51 he states again he is the living bread, anyone who eats of this bread will live forever, and the bread he will give is his flesh. Given the understanding of “the flesh” that the Jews had , it is interesting that they did not refer their concept to his flesh.***Continued from the last post . . . . ***
The flesh is of no avail
Well what about “the flesh” is of no avail”.
That isn’t going to work as an objection against partaking of the Lamb of God either.
Why? Because Jesus never said HIS flesh was of no avail.
NOT JOHN 6:63 (Phantom Verse) 63 It is the spirit that gives life, MY flesh is of no avail; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life.
Jesus said “THE flesh” is of no avail, not “MY Flesh” is of no avail.
And we should ALL affirm that.
“The flesh” IS of NO avail.
But WHAT is “the flesh” in a Jewish context?
"The Flesh"
“The flesh” is being saved by your Old Covenant works such as circumcision. “The Flesh” is thinking you have an inside track to God because of your blood genealogy.
To Jews, “the flesh” would mean things like family lineage (being of Jewish heritage), Tribe, and circumcision (especially precisely on the eighth day as the Jewish teaching prescribed).
Well how do we know?
Fortunately we don’t have to guess. St. Paul exemplifies this “the flesh” concept for us.
Let’s look at “the flesh” as St. Paul applies this term to himself in giving us further insight into this term for us. We will see again that “the flesh” IS “of no avail”!
Let’s look at Philippians 3:3-6 for a reasonable example of the Jewish meaning of what “the flesh” means to an ancient Jew.
St. Paul specifically talks about the phrase “the flesh” with regards to himself. Let’s see how he uses it.
(emphasis mine)
PHILIPPIANS 3:3-4 3 For we are the true circumcision who worship God in spirit, and glory in Christ Jesus, and put no confidence in THE FLESH.
4 Though I myself have reason for confidence in THE FLESH also.
If any other man thinks he has reason for confidence in THE FLESH, I have more:
Why?
Why St. Paul, can you say that before you were a Christian, you had so much confidence in THE FLESH?
Fortunately St. Paul is about to tell us why.
PHILIPPIANS 3:4b-6 4b If any other man thinks he has reason
for confidence in THE FLESH, I have more:
5 circumcised on the eighth day,
of the people of Israel,
of the tribe of Benjamin,
a Hebrew born of Hebrews;
as to the law a Pharisee,
6 as to zeal a persecutor of the church,
as to righteousness under the law blameless.
“The law” incidentally that St. Paul is “blameless” in, is ritual law, NOT moral law. Pedigrees and various rituals such as circumcision is where Paul refers to himself as “blameless”.
St. Paul knows there are DIFFERENT types of “law”. And if WE know that too, we won’t fall into the sola fide trap lumping all types of “law” together (but that discussion would be for a different thread).
St. Paul when referring to MORAL laws in 1st Timothy 1:15, refers to himself as “foremost” among sinners and NOT “blameless”.
Since St. Paul fulfilled these Old Covenant ritual classifications perfectly, he considers himself blameless or perfect in these categories, and thus he could put more confidence in “THE FLESH” than anybody.
So St. Paul basically is telling these Philippians what?
That **“THE FLESH” is of no avail! **
Remember, “the flesh” refers to Old Covenant rituals and tribal pedigrees, etc.
It does not seem illogical to think he could be saying " if you are actually envisioning that you will eat this physical body you see if front of you, what are you going to then think and do when you see it disappear from your sight and grasp when I ascend back to heaven."Might some who believe in a symbolic presence but not a physical one, interpret the verses to mean that Jesus was clarifying to the grumblers that he was speaking figuratively about eating his flesh and drinking his blood and instead to believe in his death for our sins, in his resurrection and 2nd coming, and in the meantime he would be with us in spirit? Of course some still grumbled and walked away. But maybe because they were still thinking Jesus was speaking literally?
How is this answering what they are murmuring about? If He is telling them He is speaking metaphorically, how then is His Flesh true food?It does not seem illogical to think he could be saying " if you are actually envisioning that you will eat this physical body you see if front of you, what are you going to then think and do when you see it disappear from your sight and grasp when I ascend back to heaven."
I don’t think he announced “ok folks, I am a now speaking literally or metaphorically.” In the previous verses he had adequately explained who he was, what his purpose was and that they should labor for that meat which the Son of Man would give them and it would produce everlasting life. When they asked what they should do to do the works of God he told them very clearly that this is the work of God…“to BELIEVE ON him who he hath sent!” There is much mention in this chapter of “believing.” There was nothing wrong with the teacher, they walked away because they did not believe. Look at Peter’s words inverse 69…"And we BELIEVE and are sure you art the Christ, the Son of the living God.How is this answering what they are murmuring about? If He is telling them He is speaking metaphorically, how then is His Flesh true food?
The way you interpret this passage is they walked away because they misunderstood Jesus. If this is true, there is nothing wrong with them walking away, it was the Teacher who was not clear.
To Catholics, they walked away because they understood, the Teacher was clear.
What didn’t they believe, that Jesus was speaking literally, or metaphorically?I don’t think he announced “ok folks, I am a now speaking literally or metaphorically.” In the previous verses he had adequately explained who he was, what his purpose was and that they should labor for that meat which the Son of Man would give them and it would produce everlasting life. When they asked what they should do to do the works of God he told them very clearly that this is the work of God…“to BELIEVE ON him who he hath sent!” There is much mention in this chapter of “believing.” There was nothing wrong with the teacher, they walked away because they did not believe. Look at Peter’s words inverse 69…"And we BELIEVE and are sure you art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
I think it comes down to this:I am interested in knowing what others interpret these verses to mean…
So one could say, that if someone says they believe, but do not feed on Jesus’ flesh, that they really don’t believe?I think it comes down to this:
What in John 6 produces eternal life?
40 For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and **believes in him should have eternal life, **and I will raise him up on the last day.”
47 Truly, truly, I say to you, **whoever believes has eternal life.
**
54 Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.
question:
In John 6:
What is it that produces eternal life?
Believing in Christ v40 or eating His flesh v54?
over 2 years before the Last Supper Jesus tells them:
63 The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you—they are full of the Spirit and life. 64 Yet there are some of you who do not believe.
IOW: no belief means no eternal life
The same answer that is given throughout Scriptures: Believing in Christ gives eternal life.
For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
John 3:16
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on them.
John 3:36
I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life.
1 John 5:13
let me chew on that for a bit and get back to youSo one could say, that if someone says they believe, but do not feed on Jesus’ flesh, that they really don’t believe?
Can you have eternal life but not feed on His flesh?
How is His flesh true food then?let me chew on that for a bit a get back to you
“When your words came, I ate them; they were my joy and my heart’s delight, for I bear your name, LORD God Almighty.” Jeremiah 15:16
How sweet are Your words to my taste! Yes, sweeter than honey to my mouth! Psalm 119:103
"Now you, son of man, listen to what I am speaking to you; do not be rebellious like that rebellious house. Open your mouth and eat what I am giving you. Ezekiel 2:8
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I’m back : eating is a metaphor for believing
Actually he did say he came down from heaven and spoke of ascending to where he was before and would raise them up at the last day.How could Jesus be clarifying for the grumblers something He had not mentioned to them, i.e. His death, His resurrection, and second coming?
Exactly.How is His flesh true food then?
Did His followers leave because they believed He was speaking literally or metaphorically?
Why does St. John change the wording in the discourse when talking about eating His flesh from the word phago, which is usually taken literally, but can be used metaphorically, to trogo, a word that has never been used metaphorically?
Absolutely. Protestants who believe (feed on) that he gave up his flesh for us and who never consume the Eucharist in the physical presence sense of the Catholic Church can have eternal life. If I make it there, I expect to see many.Can you have eternal life but not feed on His flesh?