John 6:66

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Randy, I have little use for this type of copy and paste job b/c the statements have been ripped out of context and don’t really reflect Augustine’s actual belief (which can be gathered from the surrounding text and related writings). If you want to discuss any of these quotes in detail so as to establish your assertion that they “strongly support the opinion that He held to the true presence of the Body and Blood of Christ in the Eucharist”, then I would invite you to pick what you believe are the strongest three, provide the full context of the quotes and I will be happy to provide my argument as to why the support is not as strong as you think.
That’s a very interesting pose to strike, Radical.

I provide a boatload of quotes from Augustine with references so that you could check them, and you “have little use” for them.

You, on the other hand, provide ONE quote with NO reference and consider your case made.
 
Indeed you’re right, however doctrine can not change.
ahhh, but it does. Take for example the possession of and the relationship between the two natures of Christ. You don’t think that all the doctrine on that matter was taught from the start, do you? Doctrine was crafted and expanded to settle issues that had arisen from existing beliefs.
Therefore we must accept as doctrine what was believed from the first, or we must throw out the faith as being taught by liers and scoundrals.
They don’t have to be liars at all…(though “lying” surely wasn’t a stranger to the ancient Christians). I note how the pious (in their enthusiasm) tend to expound greatly on their beliefs and expand them in the process
Indeed we have St. Ignatius of Antioch, a disciple of St. John the Apostle…
this is far from certain…and that is one of the ways the ancients tended to “lie”. Producing a book and attributing it to the pen of an apostle or noted father (to give it more authority) was not uncommon and isn’t far from claiming a false relationship to elevate the prestige of a hero.
… proclaiming it to be truly his blood and truly his body.
I don’t think that you have given an accurate description of Ignatius’s words. Ignatius also claimed that Jesus’s blood was incorruptible love…not exactly a fellow who was afraid to speak metaphorically. You can’t simply declare that in such and such a case Ignatius was necessarily speaking literally so as to find support for your view.
St. Irenaeus likewise, a disciple of St. Polycarp, a disciple of St. John the Apostle wrote on the subject as well.
The Polycarp-John connection is also subject to question, but Paul (in the NT) describes how people that he directly taught started to get things wrong…Irenaeus, at best, is one step farther removed from an apostle than the students of Paul. Which is why the error did not need to come from John as you claim.
 
That’s a very interesting pose to strike, Radical.

I provide a boatload of quotes from Augustine with references so that you could check them, and you “have little use” for them.

You, on the other hand, provide ONE quote with NO reference and consider your case made.
I haven’t said my case was made…in fact, I offered to make it. If you want more from me w/o any effort on your part go to the link that I provided at post #25 of this thread…and read…you will note that I have dealt with a number of quotes that you provided. So again, I invite you to do a better job than simply copying a bunch of quotes…let’s actually read their context and see if they really mean what you think.
 
The point is this. Since we all know the sacrament themselves do not save you, why argue if the sacraments should be imagined this way or that? Does it mean that if I imagine my baptizer to be my neighbor instead of my priest my baptism is of no avail?

Please.

Let’s just take it the way Jesus says it. In rememberance of Him sacrificing Himself for us and giving His body & blood for our salvation. Let’s not over-complicate things.

I’m very sure on the day of redemption, Jesus is NOT going to ask you…“So, did you imagine the bread to be my body or just a biscuit”?
I will answer this but I do not want to derail the thread. Now do you realize that baptism is a requirement for salvation but that is another topic. Faith in not imagination. It is just that faith. The second statement you post to me seems very off the cuff. There are other verses that clearly state also that it is his body and blood. I will now call it what it is. Heresy of teaching the spiritual presence or figurative presence at the time of the reformation is what caused the rift we have today. Thank you Zwingli and Calvin. :rolleyes:
 
Radical, I would like you to take a good look at this “cut and paste” on Augustine and then if you think it is out of context lets start another thread and hash it out.

ST. AUGUSTINE (c. 354 - 430 A.D.)

“That Bread which you see on the altar, having been sanctified by the word of God IS THE BODY OF CHRIST. That chalice, or rather, what is in that chalice, having been sanctified by the word of God, IS THE BLOOD OF CHRIST. Through that bread and wine the Lord Christ willed to commend HIS BODY AND BLOOD, WHICH HE POURED OUT FOR US UNTO THE FORGIVENESS OF SINS.” (Sermons 227)

“The Lord Jesus wanted those whose eyes were held lest they should recognize him, to recognize Him in the breaking of the bread [Luke 24:16,30-35]. The faithful know what I am saying. They know Christ in the breaking of the bread. For not all bread, but only that which receives the blessing of Christ, BECOMES CHRIST’S BODY.” (Sermons 234:2)

“What you see is the bread and the chalice; that is what your own eyes report to you. But what your faith obliges you to accept is that THE BREAD IS THE BODY OF CHRIST AND THE CHALICE [WINE] THE BLOOD OF CHRIST.” (Sermons 272)

“How this ‘And he was carried in his own hands’] should be understood literally of David, we cannot discover; but we can discover how it is meant of Christ. FOR CHRIST WAS CARRIED IN HIS OWN HANDS, WHEN, REFERRING TO HIS OWN BODY, HE SAID: ‘THIS IS MY BODY.’ FOR HE CARRIED THAT BODY IN HIS HANDS.” (Psalms 33:1:10)

“Was not Christ IMMOLATED only once in His very Person? In the Sacrament, nevertheless, He is IMMOLATED for the people not only on every Easter Solemnity but on every day; and a man would not be lying if, when asked, he were to reply that Christ is being IMMOLATED.” (Letters 98:9)

“Christ is both the Priest, OFFERING Himself, and Himself the Victim. He willed that the SACRAMENTAL SIGN of this should be the daily Sacrifice of the Church, who, since the Church is His body and He the Head, learns to OFFER herself through Him.” (City of God 10:20)

“By those sacrifices of the Old Law, this one Sacrifice is signified, in which there is a true remission of sins; but not only is no one forbidden to take as food the Blood of this Sacrifice, rather, all who wish to possess life are exhorted to drink thereof.” (Questions on the Heptateuch 3:57)

“Nor can it be denied that the souls of the dead find relief through the piety of their friends and relatives who are still alive, when the Sacrifice of the Mediator is OFFERED for them, or when alms are given in the church.” (Ench Faith, Hope, Love 29:110)

“But by the prayers of the Holy Church, and by the SALVIFIC SACRIFICE, and by the alms which are given for their spirits, there is no doubt that the dead are aided that the Lord might deal more mercifully with them than their sins would deserve. FOR THE WHOLE CHURCH OBSERVES THIS PRACTICE WHICH WAS HANDED DOWN BY THE FATHERS that it prays for those who have died in the communion of the Body and Blood of Christ, when they are commemorated in their own place in the Sacrifice itself; and the Sacrifice is OFFERED also in memory of them, on their behalf. If, the works of mercy are celebrated for the sake of those who are being remembered, who would hesitate to recommend them, on whose behalf prayers to God are not offered in vain? It is not at all to be doubted that such prayers are of profit to the dead; but for such of them as lived before their death in a way that makes it possible for these things to be useful to them after death.” (Sermons 172:2)

“…I turn to Christ, because it is He whom I seek here; and I discover how the earth is adored without impiety, how without impiety the footstool of His feet is adored. For He received earth from earth; because flesh is from the earth, and He took flesh from the flesh of Mary. He walked here in the same flesh, AND GAVE US THE SAME FLESH TO BE EATEN UNTO SALVATION. BUT NO ONE EATS THAT FLESH UNLESS FIRST HE ADORES IT; and thus it is discovered how such a footstool of the Lord’s feet is adored; AND NOT ONLY DO WE NOT SIN BY ADORING, WE DO SIN BY NOT ADORING.” (Psalms 98:9)

From this evidence we clearly see the following from St. Augustine –

(1) The bread having been sanctified “IS THE BODY OF CHRIST”

(2) The wine having been sanctified “IS THE BLOOD OF CHRIST”

(3) We know Christ in the breaking of the bread; and not all bread, but only that which receives the blessing of Christ “BECOMES CHRIST’S BODY.”

(4) When Christ said “THIS IS MY BODY” He carried “HIS OWN BODY” in “HIS OWN HANDS”

(5) Christ is “IMMOLATED” (sacrificed in an unbloody manner) in the Eucharist every day (this is not a re-crucifixion but a re-presentation or “making present” before the Father for our benefit and application of His one and only Sacrifice)

(6) Christ is Priest and Victim OFFERING Himself and in the daily Sacrifice His Body the Church OFFERS herself through/with Him

(7) All who wish to have eternal life must take as food and drink the Blood of Christ’s Sacrifice in Holy Communion

(8) The souls of the dead in Christ find relief through the Sacrifice of the Mediator OFFERED for them and through the prayers of the living Body of Christ on earth

(9) The WHOLE Church observes this practice handed down from the Fathers – the prayers of the Holy Church, the salvific Sacrifice, and alms and works of piety and mercy are offered for those who have died “in the communion of the Body and Blood of Christ” so that the Lord might deal more mercifully with their sins

(10) Christ gave us His own flesh “to be eaten unto salvation” and no one eats that flesh unless He ADORES (worships) it in the Holy Eucharist since Christ is truly present and took flesh in the Incarnation

click bringyou.to/apologetics/num30.htm for more details
 
Radical, I would like you to take a good look at this “cut and paste” on Augustine and then if you think it is out of context lets start another thread and hash it out.
OK…let’s hash it out.

As I suggested before, pick the strongest three that you can find. List them and provide a link to the full text (If you can’t access the full text on-line so that we can see the context, then pick another one). Then tell me why those passages necessitate an RP understanding by Augustine.

A word of advice. As indicated before, F. van der Meer, the author of a renowned work on Augustine, concluded this about Augustine:

“It is perfectly true, however, that there is nowhere any indication of any awareness of the Real Presence of Christ in the Sacrament, or that he thought very much about this subject or made it the object of devotion; that was alien to the people of that age – at any rate in the West.”

Do you really believe that the likes of van der Meer missed those passages (that you managed to find so easily for your copy and paste job) in drawing his conclusion?
 
OK…let’s hash it out.

As I suggested before, pick the strongest three that you can find. List them and provide a link to the full text (If you can’t access the full text on-line so that we can see the context, then pick another one). Then tell me why those passages necessitate an RP understanding by Augustine.

A word of advice. As indicated before, F. van der Meer, the author of a renowned work on Augustine, concluded this about Augustine:

“It is perfectly true, however, that there is nowhere any indication of any awareness of the Real Presence of Christ in the Sacrament, or that he thought very much about this subject or made it the object of devotion; that was alien to the people of that age – at any rate in the West.”

Do you really believe that the likes of van der Meer missed those passages (that you managed to find so easily for your copy and paste job) in drawing his conclusion?
Just thought I’d ask, since you’ve already said you don’t care what evidence anyone else puts forward regarding what any ECF said off this very narrow point, do you have any other purpose to making this thread other than Proslytization?
 
I did feed Radical, Nine_Two since he only seems to have one quote and missed what else was even said following what he quotes. I guess we will see if Radical response. Though I am sure I will be out of context:rolleyes:
 
I will answer this but I do not want to derail the thread. Now do you realize that baptism is a requirement for salvation but that is another topic. Faith in not imagination. It is just that faith. The second statement you post to me seems very off the cuff. There are other verses that clearly state also that it is his body and blood. I will now call it what it is. Heresy of teaching the spiritual presence or figurative presence at the time of the reformation is what caused the rift we have today. Thank you Zwingli and Calvin. :rolleyes:
Workingman,

Baptism is a requirement for salvation, but which baptism are you referring to? You know that John baptised with water, but Christ with Fire.

Have you been baptised with FIRE??? So, if I take the word as it is…REAL FIRE. Have you ever been burnt?

How do you baptize in the desert? NO water, no oasis. How? So without the water baptism, the man is left for eternal death?

I believe God is FAR more intelligent than we can ever imagine. That baptism here refers to the baptism of the Holy Ghost. If a man repents and is baptised by the Holy Spirit, that man is SAVED for eternal life. Because it is the Spirit that Gives Life.

You see, Jesus spoke of alot of things. But you must also remember that Jesus is God. That means if HE says it, then it is so, but not us! Try speaking to the dead and see if they will rise!

When Jesus said “Take of this cup…my blood”. THAT cup would be containing His blood since He said so. But if today, I take a cup of tea or coke or any other drink and pass it to you and say…“Take of this cup…my blood” in the same sacrament. Do you think the cup contains MY blood or Jesus’ blood? What if I’m a crook?..will the drink be Jesus’ blood?

Alot of things are now done in a figurative sense, not because the powers are in them but because they a rememberance of God’s love for us. I can do 10,000 Holy Communions and Water Baptisms and yet remain eternally condemned. Holy Communion does not save you, Baptism (specifically of Water) does not save you…What is Salvation?
  • Repent & Be Baptised (Holy Ghost) in the name of Jesus Christ.
It is the Spirit that gives life, the Spirit that calls out Abba Father. Not what you or me call with our carnal mouths. Whatever we do is of NO AVAIL, if there is no Spirit.

.
 
Jesus already spoke very clearly when He said - ‘I am the Truth, the Way and the Life. NO man goes to the Father except through Me’.

Truth, Way, Life.

Where are these 3 components in our lives? Do we have it?

Truth - Know, understand embrace the truth, be a soldier of the truth.

Way - Live a life of godliness & Holiness, follow the way of Christ.

Life - Live in the Spirit (if God has bestowed it upon you).

It is these 3 things that will lead us to Salvation because these 3 things = Jesus Christ.

.
 
Mosacked, before I respond. What type of theology do you subscribe to? Baptist, Lutheran, None Denominational, Athiest, what. Some of what I am hoping are insane illistrations only are quite blasphemous.
 
Mosacked;5957725]Workingman,
Baptism is a requirement for salvation, but which baptism are you referring to? You know that John baptised with water, but Christ with Fire.
Have you been baptised with FIRE??? So, if I take the word as it is…REAL FIRE. Have you ever been burnt?
Yup just last week by my lawnmower:D
How do you baptize in the desert? NO water, no oasis. How? So without the water baptism, the man is left for eternal death?
No water no life. There is water in the desert. Lets not be absurd.
I believe God is FAR more intelligent than we can ever imagine. That baptism here refers to the baptism of the Holy Ghost. If a man repents and is baptised by the Holy Spirit, that man is SAVED for eternal life. Because it is the Spirit that Gives Life.
God’s intelligence is beyond our human feeble minds. So you subscribe to OSAS.
You see, Jesus spoke of alot of things. But you must also remember that Jesus is God. That means if HE says it, then it is so, but not us! Try speaking to the dead and see if they will rise!
Look at Acts 9:40-41 Peter did raise the dead.
When Jesus said “Take of this cup…my blood”. THAT cup would be containing His blood since He said so. But if today, I take a cup of tea or coke or any other drink and pass it to you and say…“Take of this cup…my blood” in the same sacrament. Do you think the cup contains MY blood or Jesus’ blood? What if I’m a crook?..will the drink be Jesus’ blood?
Now you are pushing a blasphemous line. Are you a ordained priest with apostolic succession? Even if the priest were a crook the sacrament would still be valid.
Alot of things are now done in a figurative sense, not because the powers are in them but because they a rememberance of God’s love for us. I can do 10,000 Holy Communions and Water Baptisms and yet remain eternally condemned. Holy Communion does not save you, Baptism (specifically of Water) does not save you…What is Salvation?
If you want to discuss salvation start another thread please.
  • Repent & Be Baptised (Holy Ghost) in the name of Jesus Christ.
It is the Spirit that gives life, the Spirit that calls out Abba Father. Not what you or me call with our carnal mouths. Whatever we do is of NO AVAIL, if there is no Spirit.
 
Mosacked, before I respond. What type of theology do you subscribe to? Baptist, Lutheran, None Denominational, Athiest, what. Some of what I am hoping are insane illistrations only are quite blasphemous.
’ I wipe the dust off my feet’.

.
 
OK…let’s hash it out.
Radical, I’m affraid you’ll find that Augustine was very much Catholic in his views on the Eucharist as all church Fathers were before him:

Ignatius of Antioch, diciple of John the apostle;

“Take note of those who hold heterodox opinions on the grace of Jesus Christ which has come to us, and see how contrary their opinions are to the mind of God. . . . They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer because they do not confess that the Eucharist is the flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ, flesh which suffered for our sins and which that Father, in his goodness, raised up again. They who deny the gift of God are perishing in their disputes” (Letter to the Smyrnaeans 6:2–7:1 [A.D. 110]).

Irenaeus, diciple of John the apostle
“If the Lord were from other than the Father, how could he rightly take bread, which is of the same creation as our own, and confess it to be his body and affirm that the mixture in the cup is his blood?” (Against Heresies 4:33–32 [A.D. 189]).

and since you think were taking the Fathers out of context, heres the whole slab of Justin Martyr on the Divine Liturgy and Eucharist (First Apology[A.D 150]) ;

CHAP. LXVI.–OF THE EUCHARIST.

And this food is called among us Eukaristia(5) [the Eucharist], of which no one is allowed to partake but the man who believes that the things which we teach are true, and who has been washed with the washing that is for the remission of sins, and unto regeneration, and who is so living as Christ has enjoined. For not as common bread and common drink do we receive these; but in like manner as Jesus Christ our Saviour, having been made flesh by the Word of God, had both flesh and blood for our salvation, so likewise have we been taught that the food which is blessed by the prayer of His word, and from which our blood and flesh by transmutation are nourished, is the flesh and blood of that Jesus who was made flesh.(6) For the apostles, in the memoirs composed by them, which are called Gospels, have thus delivered unto us what was enjoined upon them; that Jesus took bread, and when He had given thanks, said, “This do ye in remembrance of Me,(7) this is My body;” and that, after the same manner, having taken the cup and given thanks, He said, “This is My blood;” and gave it to them alone. Which the wicked devils have imitated in the mysteries of Mithras, commanding the same thing to be done. For, that bread and a cup of water are placed with certain incantations in the mystic rites of one who is being initiated, you either know or can learn.

CHAP. LXVII.–WEEKLY WORSHIP OF THE CHRISTIANS.

And we afterwards continually remind each other of these things. And the wealthy among us help the needy; and we always keep together; and for all things wherewith we are supplied, we bless the Maker of all through His Son Jesus Christ, and through the Holy Ghost. And on the day called Sunday,(1) all who live in cities or in the country gather together to one place, and the memoirs of the apostles or the writings of the prophets are read, as long as time permits; then, when the reader has ceased, the president verbally instructs, and exhorts to the imitation of these good things. Then we all rise together and pray, and, as we before said, when our prayer is ended, bread and wine and water are brought, and the president in like manner offers prayers and thanksgivings, according to his ability,(2) and the people assent, saying Amen; and there is a distribution to each, and a participation of that over which thanks have been given,(3) and to those who are absent a portion is sent by the deacons. And they who are well to do, and willing, give what each thinks fit; and what is collected is deposited with the president, who succours the orphans and widows and those who, through sickness or any other cause, are in want, and those who are in bonds and the strangers sojourning among us, and in a word takes care of all who are in need. But Sunday is the day on which we all hold our common assembly, because it is the first day on which God, having wrought a change in the darkness and matter, made the world; and Jesus Christ our Saviour on the same day rose from the dead. For He was crucified on the day before that of Saturn (Saturday); and on the day after that of Saturn, which is the day of the Sun, having appeared to His apostles and disciples, He taught them these things, which we have submitted to you also for your consideration.

Peace
 
A word of advice. As indicated before, F. van der Meer, the author of a renowned work on Augustine, concluded this about Augustine:
“It is perfectly true, however, that there is nowhere any indication of any awareness of the Real Presence of Christ in the Sacrament, or that he thought very much about this subject or made it the object of devotion; that was alien to the people of that age – at any rate in the West.”
Do you really believe that the likes of van der Meer missed those passages (that you managed to find so easily for your copy and paste job) in drawing his conclusion?
I don’t know who this man is, I’m assuming he is a scholar of some sort. Every scholar has there own opinion, I could quote Robert Funk and the Jesus seminar if I was a radical liberal to prove Christ never claimed divinity. The point is scholars have opinions on everything, its up to us to look at the evidence from the text and see for ourselves.
 
Protestants, please read carefully. I send this with love. The reformers left the Council of Trent over the important doctrine of “Transubstantiation”, Why? Jesus said “You must eat his Flesh and drink his Blood or you do not have life in you”. You state he was speaking symbolically and metaphorically? Do you understand this is where Judas and the other disciples no longer followed Jesus over a symbol? I think not! This is in John 6:66 do you think this is by chance it is in this chapter and verse? I think not! Do you want to be known as a “Judas Priest”! I think not! The Catholic Church is correct on all doctrine, please come home the doors are always open. We do not lock our doors so, Come visit Jesus in the tabernacles throughout the world, he is waiting on all of you. Jesus prayed to the Father for “Perfectly One” ( John 17 ). Are we perfectly one protestants? I think not! His will be done with or without you.

Peace be with you all and come home soon!

WhatisTruth
I am trying to redirect everyone to my original post. How do protestants respond to Judas leaving Jesus on the theology of the Eucharist and in all four Gospel accounts, Judas left Jesus at the Last Supper? How do you get around this doctrine of Supernatural Truth without being a “Judas Priest”?

whatistruth
 
The point is scholars have opinions on everything, its up to us to look at the evidence from the text and see for ourselves.
Exactly, which is why I have repeatedly suggested that workingman and Randy Carson stop merely copying and pasting and actually read the full passage in question and then present an argument…'tis like pulling teeth.
 
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