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Radical
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I respond by saying that this theory of yours (wrt to the reason Judas left) is unsupported by any evidence and does not merit consideration.
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whatistruth
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I hope everyone is reading with attention. In all 4 Gospel accounts, Judas leaves Jesus at the Last Supper in the Upper Room. In John’s Gospel 6, Judas leaves Jesus from this teaching. If you can not see this, I truly question anyone if they have actually read the Gospel, it is directly in front of you. Anyone to deny this is responding exactly as the Pharisees did when Jesus taught them this doctrine. This teaching is 2000 years old, how can you not see this. I swear we are repeating history! Read your history, are we so blind? The more time changes, the more they stay the same. Read the Gospel please!
whatistruth
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Hunho
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This is from The Ignatius Catholic Study Bible: The Gospel of John (commentary and notes by Scott Hahn and Curtis Mitch) on John 6:53:** “eat the flesh . . . drink his blood:** Jesus is speaking literally and sacramentally. If he were speaking metaphorically or figuratively, his words would echo a Hebrew idiom where consuming flesh and blood refers to the brutalities of war (Deut 32:42; Ezek 39:17-18).”
There is also a note on the words that are used in the Greek text where Jesus talks about eating His flesh. In verses 54, 56, 57 and 58b the Greek word is a different word (trōgō) than is used throughout most of the New Testament. This word is specific and means “chew” or “gnaw” rather than some general purpose “eat.” It certainly does not carry a figurative or “spiritual” meaning.
In verses 57 and 58, Jesus compares eating His flesh to eating the manna in the desert. Both times when the reference is to Jesus’ flesh the verb is “chew” (trōgō) but when the reference is to the manna the verb for eat is the more general word (esthiō). I am not a Greek scholar so I checked the Greek word meanings and usage in Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance. Strong’s - a basic and widely used Protestant resource - gives the same usages and meanings. It seems to me (and to Scott Hahn and Curtis Mitch) that Jesus’ own words as reported by John make it clear that He meant His words to be taken literally.
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whatistruth
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Thanks Hunho, Jesus is speaking as clear as water
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whatistruth
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Protestants, in case you missed it from John’s Gospel, how do you respond to a symbol in Luke’s Gospel?
“And it happened that, while he was at table with them, he took bread, and he blessed and broke it, and he extended it to them. And their eyes were opened, and they recognized him. And he vanished from their eyes.” (Luke 24:30-31) Brothers and sisters it is time to stop these heresies come back to the Church your ancestors joined in with Judas.
whatistruth
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shawn38
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Where?
Matt 26 Jesus replied, “The one who has dipped his hand into the bowl with me will betray me. 24The Son of Man will go just as it is written about him. But woe to that man who betrays the Son of Man! It would be better for him if he had not been born.” 25 Then Judas, the one who would betray him, said, “Surely not I, Rabbi?” Jesus answered, “Yes, it is you.”a 26While they were eating, Jesus took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to his disciples, saying, “Take and eat; this is my body.” 27Then he took the cup, gave thanks and offered it to them, saying, “Drink from it, all of you.
Luke 22:17 After taking the cup, he gave thanks and said, “Take this and divide it among you. 18For I tell you I will not drink again of the fruit of the vine until the kingdom of God comes.” 19And he took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to them, saying, “This is my body given for you; do this in remembrance of me.” 20In the same way, after the supper he took the cup, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which is poured out for you. 21But the hand of him who is going to betray me is with mine on the table. 22The Son of Man will go as it has been decreed, but woe to that man who betrays him.” 23They began to question among themselves which of them it might be who would do this.
Mark 14:17 When evening came, Jesus arrived with the Twelve. 18While they were reclining at the table eating, he said, “I tell you the truth, one of you will betray me—one who is eating with me.” 19They were saddened, and one by one they said to him, “Surely not I?” 20“It is one of the Twelve,” he replied, “one who dips bread into the bowl with me. 21The Son of Man will go just as it is written about him. But woe to that man who betrays the Son of Man! It would be better for him if he had not been born.” 22While they were eating, Jesus took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to his disciples, saying, “Take it; this is my body.” 23Then he took the cup, gave thanks and offered it to them, and they all drank from it.
21After he had said this, Jesus was troubled in spirit and testified, “I tell you the truth, one of you is going to betray me.” 22His disciples stared at one another, at a loss to know which of them he meant. 23One of them, the disciple whom Jesus loved, was reclining next to him. 24Simon Peter motioned to this disciple and said, “Ask him which one he means.” 25Leaning back against Jesus, he asked him, “Lord, who is it?” 26Jesus answered, “It is the one to whom I will give this piece of bread when I have dipped it in the dish.” Then, dipping the piece of bread, he gave it to Judas Iscariot, son of Simon. 27As soon as Judas took the bread, Satan entered into him. “What you are about to do, do quickly,” Jesus told him, 28but no one at the meal understood why Jesus said this to him. 29Since Judas had charge of the money, some thought Jesus was telling him to buy what was needed for the Feast, or to give something to the poor. 30As soon as Judas had taken the bread, he went out. And it was night.
Luke account has Judas at the table after the breaking of bread.
John’s account said he\Judas took the bread. Who gave it to him? Jesus!
Matthew and Mark don’t say he left either. Only John 13:29 said Judas left, but after he took the bread.
Where in John 6 did I miss it? I’ll assume you meant John 13.
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Melkite_Sword
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Why not?
a) The people at the time Jesus was talking took him literally ‘This saying is hard who can accept it’, they also took him literally when he said he came down from heaven; ‘41 The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, “I am the bread which came down from heaven.” 42 They said, "Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How does he now say, `I have come down from heaven’?", why would they be right in taking him literally here but not when he said to ‘eat my flesh and drink my blood’, in both cases he made no attempt of correcting them.
b) everytime Jesus did not speak literally and the people misunderstood he would correct them, not so in this case. For example;
John 3:1-6
"1 Now there was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews. 2 This man came to Jesus by night and said to him, “Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher come from God; for no one can do these signs that you do, unless God is with him.” 3 Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born anew, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”
4 Nicodemus said to him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?” 5 Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.”
Nicodemus misunderstands and Jesus corrects him. Although in John 6:61 his answer is simply “Does this offend you?”
c) Jesus here lost 5000 of his disciples, The only faithful ones were 11 of his apostles, Judas stopped believing here too.
d) John 6:70-71 “Jesus said to them, “I chose you, the twelve, did I not? Yet one of you is a devil.” Jesus spoke of Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon. He, one of the twelve was to betray him.” This only happens at the last supper, Matt 26:21 "While they were eating, Jesus said, “Truly, I say to you: one of you will betray me.” and you know the rest of the story. Jesus also at this time shows the apostles what he meant in John 6:52-59, when he finally says, exactly three years later (The discourse in John 6 happened at the passover) “Take and eat; this is my body.” Then he took the cup and gave thanks, and passed it to them saying, “Drink this all of you, for this is my blood, the blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.” (Matt 26:26-28).
e) St Paul later takes the last supper account to prove to the Corinthians why they should be respectful of there gatherings;
1 Corinthians 11:17-30
" 17In the following directives I have no praise for you, for your meetings do more harm than good…23For I received from the Lord what I also passed on to you: The Lord Jesus, on the night he was betrayed, took bread, 24and when he had given thanks, he broke it and said, “This is my body, which is for you; do this in remembrance of me.” 25In the same way, after supper he took the cup, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood; do this, whenever you drink it, in remembrance of me.” 26For whenever you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death until he comes.
27Therefore, whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of sinning against the body and blood of the Lord. 28A man ought to examine himself before he eats of the bread and drinks of the cup. 29For anyone who eats and drinks without recognizing the body of the Lord eats and drinks judgment on himself. 30That is why many among you are weak and sick, and a number of you have fallen asleep.
Peace
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Melkite_Sword
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they are refering to when Jesus predicted Judas would betray him in John 6, he then repeats himself in the other gospels and Judas betrays him, I’ve covered this in my previous post, quite amazing actually. I also forgot to mention, John is the only Gospel that leaves out the last supper account, as the evangelist sees no need to, he covered it in John 6
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Radical
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So what if they echo something? First, if you read the verses you would see that the echo ain’t that precise at all. Second, why must a figure of speech that is somewhat similar to a 300 hundred year-old figure of speech mean the same thing as that ancient figure of speech? Is Jesus lacking sovereignty such that he can’t use words so that they have a different metaphorical meaning than they had before?..even though he is using them in speaking about an entirely different matter (salvation vs. war). Is God bound by a rule that disallows the same word to be used in different figures of speech? That commentary by Hahn and Mitch is pure nonsense.
There is something about “chew” that prohibits a figurative or “spiritual” meaning? So then, “bite me”, “chew on that for a while”, “he sure got chewed out” or “they chewed the fat for an hour” all must be taken literally? Nonsense upon nonsense.
Literally? Literally? So then, your teeth literally bite into and chew the flesh of Jesus? …or is it that the accidents of your teeth chew on the accidents of the bread and that no flesh is actually chewed (in some cannibalistic act) at your Eucharist?
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Melkite_Sword
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YES, call us cannibals if you will, The Romans accused the early Christians of the same thing, thats what happens, WE REALLY EAT JESUS, HIS BODY, BLOOD, SOUL AND DIVINITY GOES INTO OUR MOUTH. That has been the Christian faith for 1500 yrs until the reform, still most Christians believe this, even some of your fellow Protestants (some Lutherans, Anglicans and Methodists etc…) I understand it is “a hard saying who can accept it” right?, will you betray him too?
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Melkite_Sword
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Jesus did not speak english. If Jesus didnt want to be taken literally why didn’t he say so instead of losing 5000 of his folowers, Jesus said ‘The will of him who sent me is to lose nothing of what he has given me’, do you honestly think Jesus doesnt care enough for his disciples?
This would also mean that God left his only church practicing idolatry for 1500 years, if we are indeed his people, why didnt he correct the practice of his church for 1500 years like he did with ancient Israel everytime they fell into idolatry, why?, nonsense upon nonsense.
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ljubim
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You either believe all of Jesus’s teachings or you don’t believe in Him. It’s as simple as that. He left His Truth for you, it’s wise to take advantage of this!
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shawn38
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64Yet there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him. 65He went on to say, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him.” 66From this time many of his disciples turned back and no longer followed him.they are refering to when Jesus predicted Judas would betray him in John 6, he then repeats himself in the other gospels and Judas betrays him, I’ve covered this in my previous post, quite amazing actually. I also forgot to mention, John is the only Gospel that leaves out the last supper account, as the evangelist sees no need to, he covered it in John 6
67“You do not want to leave too, do you?” Jesus asked the Twelve. 68Simon Peter answered him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. 69We believe and know that you are the Holy One of God.” 70Then Jesus replied, “Have I not chosen you, the Twelve? Yet one of you is a devil!” 71(He meant Judas, the son of Simon Iscariot, who, though one of the Twelve, was later to betray him.)
The text clearly states that at the Feast of the Tabernacles there was Jesus, the twelve apostles, and many other disciples. Notice in 6:66 many disciples left, but not the twelve. Twice the twelve are identified because they are present for “to whom shall we go?” 6:67and 6:70. I suppose in 6:70 that it doesn’t necessarily mean all twelve are there, but 6:67 does. “Jesus asked the twelve,” not eleven.
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shawn38
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Jesus constantly spoke figuratively.Jesus did not speak english. If Jesus didnt want to be taken literally why didn’t he say so instead of losing 5000 of his folowers, Jesus said ‘The will of him who sent me is to lose nothing of what he has given me’, do you honestly think Jesus doesnt care enough for his disciples?
So is Peter a real rock? I surely would clear up a lot of confusion regarding apostolic succession.
Did Jesus give Peter real keys that open Heavens doors? Speaking literally would clear up what the keys are.
God’s church in the Old Testament constantly reverted back to idolatry. God still loved them, but He did discipline them.
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whatistruth
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Melkite_Sword
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Yes, Judas was indeed there, but at this point Jesus points out that he will betray him, he does so again at the last supper, where he does indeed betray him. With this by itself and the fact that the last supper occured exactly three years afterwards shows great links between the discourse in John 6 and the last supper, read my previous post to Radical where I list my reasons.
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whatistruth
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When you read the end of John 6 he speaks of Judas’ betrayal. He uses John 6 in the theology of the Eucharist to introduce his betrayal. Protestants where are you on this important doctrine of faith?
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SyCarl
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A major problem I have with the Catholic interpretation of John 6 comes from the following verses.
I hold a receptionist view myself, that whoever receives with faith truly receives Jesus in the sacrament. This is not a novel view. Ephrem the Syrian indicated that those who did not receive in faith only received plain bread.
If Jesus is speaking about transubstantiation, then each of these verses is a promise that simply eating the Eucharist is sufficient for eternal life. He puts no qualifications on them. So if anyone, whether they are Christian or not, goes up and receives the Eucharist, licitly or not, at a Catholic mass he would have eternal life. If Jesus is speaking figuratively in these verses, why not the rest?
I hold a receptionist view myself, that whoever receives with faith truly receives Jesus in the sacrament. This is not a novel view. Ephrem the Syrian indicated that those who did not receive in faith only received plain bread.
(Memra for the Fifth Day of the Great Week (Holy Thursday), Sermon 4) Joel C. Elowsky, ed., Ancient Christian Commentary on Scripture, New Testament IVa John 1-10, (Downers Grove: InterVarsity Press, 2006), p. 236.)
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whatistruth
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Judas leave this thread and website, you have already left the table of our Lord. You can proof text God all you want but it is time for protestants to leave this Catholic website who continue to attempt to prove her Truths untrue. The Eucharist is the Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinty of Christ! if you want him, drop your 30 sheckles and come home, you are welcome at any time. What are you looking for? a protestant pastor that loves company and your money? In case most of you do not know who I am, I work at the largest protestant church in America. I have all the room to talk. John 6 brought me home to the Eternal City all because my former pastor could not answer John 6 or the “Supper of Emmaus” what is stopping you from swimming the Tiber?
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whatistruth
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You sound like John Calvin and John Knox. John 6 and Catholicism is never a problem, she is a blessing. They were both excommunicated from the Church over this but you are welcomed back.
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